Who has what role?

[C C]

This reminds me of a quote by Charlie Kirk. A women's-rights advocate pointed out that one in five US women experienced rape or attempted rape in their lifetimes. Kirk claimed "no, that's not possible, that's just impossible" because "then we would have the same level of rape as the Congo."

Indeed, in Italy, one in three women have experienced sexual violence or sexual assault in their lifetime.

One therefore wonders why Americans and Italians don't know that you cannot rape a person on the beach in Italy.

I presume she was being exaggeratedly figurative about beach assault, unless Italians have refined and elevated the qualifications for rape to include verbal offense. She's a lawyer of the Equal Opportunities Committee of the Court of Appeal of Salerno, who was speaking at some "national conference on security and legality organized to the Municipality of Salerno". She finished that with: "We must necessarily integrate them, educate them to our legality.”

Needless to say, she outraged the traditionalists with her nonchalent attitude (didn't help herself with that extreme example of physical sexual assault). But her own side should have been outraged too by her racist-like paternalism.

As "Mad Men" surely illustrated to Gen-Z, sexual misconduct was rife in the days of the Rat Pack and throughout history in the West. So at worst it would be a return to that (and it indeed never diminished in many corners of society).
_

 

[Wizard of Whatever]

There always has been rape. In some societies it was and is still not advertised.

 

[C C]

There always has been rape. In some societies it was and is still not advertised.

Rape is a crime in Africa and in Islam. The hysteria seems to stem from so many getting away with it in the homelands, that it might be considered a quasi-norm. Ironically, migrant women in Europe may constitute the highest percentage of victims. (Which one assumes includes the local citizens and criminals taking advantage.)

Europe was already rampant with native sex crime, so it's a marvel that public opinion started considering it as having declined or that sexual misconduct in general had lessened via political reforms.

At any rate, sexual misconduct was once prevalent around the globe, so regardless of whatever the ultimate reasons are, the late millennials and Gen-Z of the continent should adapt to the idea of it returning (earlier generations of women are already well familiar with it). The right is foaming that "outsiders" are the source (championing misguided remedies), and the left is inclined to ignore or downplay the overall issue because it is a "crazy right" preoccupation. The final result is ineffective treatment or ambivalence to the phenomenon's rise (if it ever truly declined at all in Europe).
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Migrant women face ‘second trauma’ when reporting sexual abuse in France: For migrant women, the situation is even more dire. In 2023, The Lancet published a survey revealing that the risk of being raped was 18 times higher for migrants compared to other women in France. According to the study, one out of every two migrant women did not seek help after being assaulted, and only one in 10 reached out to police or medical services.
- - - -

Narrow rape laws in 25 African countries fuel impunity: A new report from international NGO Equality Now reveals that outdated and narrow definitions of rape in 25 African countries are allowing many perpetrators to evade justice. The findings, from a comprehensive 46-page study covering 47 African nations, highlight significant gaps in legislative frameworks, enforcement, and victim access to justice.
- - - -

Rape still common crime across Africa, gaps in legal systems: New research from equality organisation Equality Now has revealed that rape is one of the most common crimes across Africa, yet justice for survivors remains elusive. [...] The report points to weak legal frameworks, inadequate criminalisation of rape, and the prevalence of rape myths and victim-blaming attitudes as major barriers to justice. Despite some progress in the region, the report reveals that many cases of rape never reach court, and even fewer result in convictions.
- - - -

Sweden rape: Most convicted attackers foreign-born
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45269764

About 58% of men convicted in Sweden of rape and attempted rape over the past five years were born abroad, according to data from Swedish national TV.
- - - -

Is Europe Still Safe? Migrant Sex Crimes Surge While Children Face Arrest For Self-Defence
https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/europe-st...ile-children-face-arrest-self-defence-1742194

Sex crime convictions by foreign nationals surged 62% in three years as Europe faces a crisis of trust after the Dundee teen arrest.
_

 

[billvon]

I presume she was being exaggeratedly figurative about beach assault, unless Italians have refined and elevated the qualifications for rape to include verbal offense.
_

In the Charlie Kirk example, she was speaking about rape and attempted rape, which sits at about 20% in the US per the CDC . If you add sexual violence and sexual assault, then it rises to 40%. (Sexual assault includes grabbing someone's ass without consent; it does not include catcalling.)

In the Italy example, it was not "beach assault" - it was all forms of sexual assault. (Source - the Italian National Institute of Statistics ISTAT.)

 

[Tiassa]

Carmen Di Genio: "We cannot expect an African to know that you cannot rape a person on the beach in Italy, because he probably doesn't even know, he really doesn't know [that he's not supposed to do that]."

Flashback, 2008↗:

Italy's highest appeal court has ruled that married Italian women who commit adultery are entitled to lie about it to protect their honour ....

.... It is not yet clear whether the ruling might also apply to men who have secret mistresses.

The Court of Cassation, which is largely staffed by elderly male appeal judges, has in the past issued a number of controversial judgements.

It once gave a ruling, later rescinded after protests from women's groups, that a woman could not be raped by definition if she was wearing tight jeans, since the jeans could only be removed with her consent.

(BBC↱; boldface accent added)​

It's actually harder than it ought to be to understand what counts as rape in Italy.

And I don't want to look for the bikini decision out of, oh, hey, it was Fort Lauderdale↱: "We all feel she asked for it for the way she was dressed," said the jury foreman.

It really is unfair to pick on African men so particularly; they're just as human as Italian, or Florida, men.

(I never really have understood what racism has to do with revolutonary egalitarianism. I mean, y'know, other than being something to overthrow.)
__________________

Notes:

"Jury blames woman's clothing in rape case". United Press International. 5 October 1989. UPI.com. 6 January 2026. https://www.upi.com/Archives/1989/10/05/Jury-blames-womans-clothing-in-rape-case/3884623563200/

Fraser, Christian. "License to lie for Italian women". BBC News. 7 March 2008. news.BBC.co.uk. 6 January 2026. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7284134.stm

 

[Olga]

Is that what Arabs and Africans are doing in France? Where are you getting these stories from? Do they also eat babies and pets?

Нам об этом рассказывают каждый день последние лет 20. А разве это не правда? Разве в Париже не громили магазины, не сжигали автомобили, не убивали журналистов Шарли Абдо? Там, вроде бы, даже демонстрации какие то были после этого случая.

 

[Olga]

Just like in US history, the continent may have to adjust to finally becoming a melting pot. There are secular states with Muslim populations, so one would expect that to be the limit for realization of any pessimist fears in Europe -- it doesn't mean Western standards would be revised.

On the negative side, there might be unique factors at play in Europe that didn't apply in some of the aforementioned countries. It could be difficult to engage in discourse and critique militant movements of Islam due to play of the race card inducing intimidation. And obviously, white paternalism and condescension still exist even on the Left...

(example) Carmen Di Genio: "We cannot expect an African to know that you cannot rape a person on the beach in Italy, because he probably doesn't even know, he really doesn't know [that he's not supposed to do that]."

You hear anecdotes about women being exposed to sexual misconduct, but in this crazy era of media chastising media for biases and reporting reticence, it's difficult to assess what is legit and what is not. Should such actually be the case, the second and third generations of the incoming cultures will eventually adapt to European social criteria.
_

А если не адаптируются, а наоборот, заставят коренных европейцев адаптироваться под их ценности? Вот европейские колонизаторы в своё время ведь не адаптировались под индейцев, а наоборот, уничтожили коренное население вместе с его культурой. В любом противостоянии обычно побеждает тот, кто агрессивней, а современные европейцы особой агрессией не отличаются. К тому же арабы и африканцы рожают по 7-10 детей, а европейцы, редко когда больше 2-х. И через 2 -3 поколения мы можем увидеть совсем другую Европу. Другую внешне, и другую внутренне.

 

[Olga]

They did worse! They killed Christian children and used their blood to make their matzos. According to Hitler, of course, who quoted historians of centuries past. (Google the Blood Libel.)

And that's not all! They were traitors who caused Germany to lose World War 1. (Hitler called it the Great War, since there had not yet been a World War II - although Hitler would soon fix that.) They were literally "poisoning the blood" of Germany - they were a "race-tuberculosis," a "vermin" that threatened the healty of all of Germany. They spread typhoid and literally caused the deaths of hundreds of German children. "Jews are lice; they cause typhus" was a popular poster printed by the German government.

How would you feel if your child died because of Jews? was a question often asked by the German media.

So, according to the right wing political views of the time, the Jews were far, far worse than Muslims are today.

Ну, там была пропаганда. Гитлеру нужно было добраться до еврейских денег, а почти все(или, все) банкиры были евреями. Вот Гитлер и придумал повод, чтобы отобрать у евреев их капиталы. По крайней мере так нам рассказывали на уроках истории. У вас есть другая версия?

 

[C C]

[...] It's actually harder than it ought to be to understand what counts as rape in Italy. [...] It really is unfair to pick on African men so particularly; they're just as human as Italian, or Florida, men.

(I never really have understood what racism has to do with revolutonary egalitarianism. I mean, y'know, other than being something to overthrow.)

Later refinements like Gramsci's widened focus to capitalist oppression of cultures and ethnicities around the globe, which fed back into incremental emphasis on marginalized population groups victimized within the West's own borders. The proles arguably still get central attention for adherents of the the classic formulation. But newer ripples have critiqued the lesser skilled (white male) working class as being a prime source of bigotry and misogyny, and the rise of MAGA has pretty much inscribed that analysis in hardened cement.

I guess Carmen Di Genio wasn't necessarily being figurative. Apparently they do have occasional beach rapes by "Africans" in Italy (among many more by Italian citizen culprits). But having to go back to 2017 is kind of stretching things, unless there are more recent incidents she was referencing.

I seriously doubt the assailants had no clue that the act was illegal and that it is something condoned by their culture, so the resonance of a condescending or racist-like paternalism in her statement is still there. (Perhaps one can't rule out covert parody on Di Genio's part, yet it's hardly the thing to be indulging in during a public speech or discourse) And on the opposite political side, an anti-migrant reaction like below is likely grounded in similar assumptions, even if traditionalists [in this current time period] were outraged by her blasé apologetics.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

re: “We cannot expect an African to know that in Italy, on the beach, you cannot rape a person, because he probably doesn't even know it, he really doesn't know it. We must necessarily integrate them, educate them about our legality”.

(2017) Gang rape fuels Italian anger at migrants
https://www.thetimes.com/world/article/gang-rape-fuels-italian-anger-at-migrants-lg0mgwmqp

EXCERPT: The police have arrested a 20-year-old man from west Africa who is suspected of participating in two gang rapes in the tourist resort of Rimini that helped to increase hostility to immigration.

Guerlin Butungu was carrying a knife when he was arrested on a train at Rimini station. The refugee, who arrived in Italy two years ago, was thought to be trying to escape to France.

The police said they believed that he was the leader of a gang of four — a 16-year-old from Nigeria and two Moroccan brothers aged 15 and 17 who were born in Italy — who raped a Polish woman on a beach in Rimini on the night of August 25 after beating up her husband.

 

[C C]

And if they do not adapt, but on the contrary, will force the Native Europeans to adapt to their values? Here are the European colonizers at one time, after all, did not adapt to the Indians, but on the contrary, destroyed the indigenous population along with its culture. In any confrontation, the one who is more aggressive, and modern Europeans do not differ in special aggression. In addition, Arabs and Africans give birth to 7-10 children, and Europeans, rarely more than 2. And in 2-3 generations we can see a completely different Europe. The other is different, and the other internally.

Most of the fears are stoked by media which serve traditionalists, that the left-center establishment (and the far-left) dismisses. The situation might almost be analogous to conspiracy orientations about Jews running government, financial, academic, journalistic, and entertainment sectors in the US.

That said, though, Israel would be a contemporary example of successful colonization by Zionists (at least as Jewish members of the Democratic Socialists of America construe the situation). So colonization of Europe (the reverse kind) by some of the historical victims of the West can't be totally ruled out as a possibility, especially with postcolonialism pushing and feeding grievances.

But again, secular Muslim states exist, and that's the more likely outcome as Islamic populations and other cultural groups increase on the continent. Not takeover by the distinct beliefs and societal templates of this or that segment of citizens.
_

 

[Olga]

Most of the fears are stoked by media which serve traditionalists, that the left-center establishment (and the far-left) dismisses. The situation might almost be analogous to conspiracy orientations about Jews running government, financial, academic, journalistic, and entertainment sectors in the US.

That said, though, Israel would be a contemporary example of successful colonization by Zionists (at least as Jewish members of the Democratic Socialists of America construe the situation). So colonization of Europe (the reverse kind) by some of the historical victims of the West can't be totally ruled out as a possibility, especially with postcolonialism pushing and feeding grievances.

But again, secular Muslim states exist, and that's the more likely outcome as Islamic populations and other cultural groups increase on the continent. Not takeover by the distinct beliefs and societal templates of this or that segment of citizens.
_

О каких именно светских мусульманских государствах вы говорите?

 

[C C]

What kind of secular Muslim states are you talking about? ........ О каких именно светских мусульманских государствах вы говорите?

The link provided in the earlier post: https://www.sciforums.com/threads/who-has-what-role.167227/post-3777581

Maybe you aren't allowed to access it or the translator has problems with that page, but there's a list of countries there, in addition to the overview.

Islam and secularism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_secularism
_

 

[Olga]

The link provided in the earlier post: https://www.sciforums.com/threads/who-has-what-role.167227/post-3777581

Maybe you aren't allowed to access it or the translator has problems with that page, but there's a list of countries there, in addition to the overview.

Islam and secularism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_secularism
_

Некоторые государства из этого списка - бывшие республики СССР. Например, Таджикистан. Уроженцы этого государства устроили терракт в Крокусе. В Москве их уже едва ли не половина населения. И они уже начинают диктовать свои условия, например, запретить новогодние ёлки, или разрешить девочкам ходить в школу в хиджабах. Даже в те школы, где есть установленная для всех учеников форма одежды.

 

[Olga]

The link provided in the earlier post: https://www.sciforums.com/threads/who-has-what-role.167227/post-3777581

Maybe you aren't allowed to access it or the translator has problems with that page, but there's a list of countries there, in addition to the overview.

Islam and secularism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_secularism
_

Вы читали книги Питера Хаммонда? Что вы можете сказать о том, что он пишет об исламской угрозе?

 

[C C]

Have you read Peter Hammond's books? What can you say about what he writes about the Islamic threat? ....... Вы читали книги Питера Хаммонда? Что вы можете сказать о том, что он пишет об исламской угрозе?

Hammond is a Christian activist, so he's going to be automatically discounted by the establishment as a demagogue dabbling in motivated reasoning.

On the other hand, there are "new atheists" like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, etc who have been critical (regressive left) of the Left's [perceived] apologetic and genuflective attitude toward Islam (putatively treating it almost like a cherished ally). In contrast to its usual demeanor with respect, to say, Christianity. But Christianity was a cohort of the West during the colonial subjugation of the globe by the Euro and Anglo hegemony. (I mean, antipathy toward that segment of Abrahamic religion is kind of built into literary intellectual politics, complemented by sympathy for other cultural belief systems.)

So conversation about the [supposed] issue is a special interests landscape sprinkled heavy with political land mines. In the end, independent investigation and personal experiences as a guide (if available) are probably warranted in private context, if not the public venue (where either diplomatic positions or conformity to orthodox views is strongly expected).
_

 

[Olga]

Hammond is a Christian activist, so he's going to be automatically discounted by the establishment as a demagogue dabbling in motivated reasoning.

On the other hand, there are "new atheists" like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, etc who have been critical (Regressive left) of the Left's [perceived] apologetic and genuflective attitude toward Islam (putatively treating it almost like a cherished ally). In contrast to its usual demeanor with respect, to say, Christianity. But Christianity was a cohort of the West during the colonial subjugation of the globe by the Euro and Anglo hegemony. (I mean, antipathy toward that segment of Abrahamic religion is kind of built into literary intellectual politics, complemented by sympathy for other cultural belief systems.)

So conversation about the [supposed] issue is a special interests landscape sprinkled heavy with political land mines. In the end, independent investigation and personal experiences as a guide (if available) are probably warranted in private context, if not the public venue (where either diplomatic positions or conformity to orthodox views is strongly expected).
_

Дело не только в религии. Здесь ещё и разные культурные ценности. Например, отношение к женщинам. Европейки уже давно отвоевали для себя равные права с мужчинами, а в некоторых мусульманских странах женщина до сих пор является едва ли не собственностью мужчин. И это отношение они несут с собой в Европу.

 

[C C]

It’s not just about religion. There are also different cultural values. For example, the attitude towards women. European women have long won equal rights with men, and in some Muslim countries, a woman is still almost the property of men. And this attitude they carry with them to Europe. .......
Дело не только в религии. Здесь ещё и разные культурные ценности. Например, отношение к женщинам. Европейки уже давно отвоевали для себя равные права с мужчинами, а в некоторых мусульманских странах женщина до сих пор является едва ли не собственностью мужчин. И это отношение они несут с собой в Европу.

Not unlike Christian culture itself, Islam has tenets that respect women and rogue interpretations or feral exo-belief inclinations that encourage the opposite. But males of diverse thought orientations must still adhere to Western laws and respect progressive social protocol, as new and later generation citizens. Or so theory goes. In practice, the "native" residents themselves can still be blatant offenders, and police may timidly look the other way when they're uncomfortable stepping into one of those political land mines: Grooming gangs scandal.
_

 

[Tiassa]

I seriously doubt the assailants had no clue that the act was illegal and that it is something condoned by their culture, so the resonance of a condescending or racist-like paternalism in her statement is still there.

Comparatively, something like the Epstein scandal seems almost an inevitable outcome among even philanderers seeking vivacious youthfulness. How drunk would you really have needed to get Bill Clinton in order to honeytrap him with a sixteen year-old, and, yet, he postures in this moment as if that's the sort of thing he managed to remain above.

Moreover, it's not unheard of that the solution to widespread sexual assault of women is somehow that women should change the way they dress. Nigeria, Florida, &c. At some point, a question arises what we mean by suggesting they don't know. In my lifetime, how many American dudes didn't know they were raping?

It seems to me that misogyny transcends racism; it's a sort of last-frontier idea, and so I borrow a song: We've gotta get out of this place, it's the last thing we'll fail to do.

Vis à vis the larger question of the melting pot, we must observe that economic circumstance is the main driver of migration, and what I do know is that economists tell me the world falls apart if the economic circumstances get too equal. The way of things requires a massive and growing poverty class. We should either repair this problem or prepare to accommodate its needs.

Once upon a time, we had a President who enumerated freedom from want. In the time since, so many Americans have so desperately opposed that freedom. Now we rely on deprivation and want.

And, sure, parts of Europe understand something about this problem, but fixing it will be difficult enough technically; the politics of doing so can easily look like a prospect of futility.

 

[Olga]

Not unlike Christian culture itself, Islam has tenets that respect women and rogue interpretations or feral exo-belief inclinations that encourage the opposite. But males of diverse thought orientations must still adhere to Western laws and respect progressive social protocol, as new and later generation citizens. Or so theory goes. In practice, the "native" residents themselves can still be blatant offenders, and police may timidly look the other way when they're uncomfortable stepping into one of those political land mines: Grooming gangs scandal.

Not unlike Christian culture itself, Islam has tenets that respect women and rogue interpretations or feral exo-belief inclinations that encourage the opposite. But males of diverse thought orientations must still adhere to Western laws and respect progressive social protocol, as new and later generation citizens. Or so theory goes. In practice, the "native" residents themselves can still be blatant offenders, and police may timidly look the other way when they're uncomfortable stepping into one of those political land mines: Grooming gangs scandal.
_

Европу, судя по всему, ждёт судьба всех исчезнувших империй. Местное население заместится в основном выходцами из арабских и африканских стран. Потому что рождаемость у тех в несколько раз выше. Вообще, замечено, что чем выше уровень жизни, тем ниже рождаемость. Никто не хочет выходить из "зоны комфорта". Наивно думать, что женщины только и мечтают ходить беременными, рожать, не спать ночами, и менять подгузники. И если в бедных странах ребёнок - это дополнительный бесплатный работник, то в богатых странах, это уже совсем не так, наоборот, ребёнок становится дополнительной статьёй расходов. В тех странах, где женщина, это зависимое и бесправное существо, подчинённое мужчине, её согласие на то, чтобы быть вечным инкубатором, никто не спрашивает. Очень жаль, что все европейские ценности будут безвозвратно утеряны, и заменены ценностями мусульманскими. Европейцы стали более добрыми, толерантными, но слабыми и тепличными, неспособными противостоять внешним и внутренним угрозам. Возможно, это не слишком корректное сравнение, но они похожи на доброго, воспитанного, домашнего спаниэля, который попав в стаю уличных псов, не будет иметь шансов на выживание. И если вы хотите сохранить породу, вам всё же придётся защищать его, а не пускать дело на самотёк. Эволюция - она такая: в ней выживает не добрейший, а сильнейший. Возможно, Европе стоило бы запретить получение гражданства выходцам из других стран. Вместо этого принять в ЕС Украину, Молдавию, Россию и Белоруссию по желанию. Сейчас это конечно звучит более, чем странно, но тем не менее, для Европы это было бы шансом на выживание.

 

[C C]

Europe, it seems, is destined for the fate of all vanished empires. The local population will be largely replaced by people from Arab and African countries, because their birth rate is several times higher. It has been observed that the higher the standard of living, the lower the birth rate. Nobody wants to leave their "comfort zone." It's naive to think that women only dream of being pregnant, giving birth, staying up all night, and changing diapers. And if in poor countries a child is an additional free worker, in rich countries it's quite the opposite; a child becomes an additional expense. In those countries where a woman is a dependent and powerless being, subordinate to a man, her consent to being a perpetual incubator is not even asked. It's a great pity that all European values will be irretrievably lost and replaced by Muslim values. Europeans have become kinder, more tolerant, but weak and sheltered, incapable of resisting external and internal threats. Perhaps this is not a very accurate comparison, but they are like a kind, well-behaved, domestic spaniel that, when thrown into a pack of street dogs, will have no chance of survival. And if you want to preserve the breed, you will still have to protect it, and not let things take their course. Evolution is like that: it's not the kindest who survive, but the strongest. Perhaps Europe should prohibit granting citizenship to people from other countries. Instead, it should accept Ukraine, Moldova, Russia, and Belarus into the EU, if they wish. Currently, this sounds more than strange, but nevertheless, for Europe it would be a chance for survival.

Consider that multi-ethnic and multi-denominational turmoil has been a fixture of the United States for decades and decades (and yet still the nation has somehow persisted over that span). Europe is just catching up, as its population finally becomes more heterogeneous across all societal attributes.[1] On the plus side, there will be fewer guns that the cultural and inter-religious quarrels and secular clashes with those elements can play with. As well as with respect to whatever new street gangs, criminal organizations, and radical movements arise via the social justice inequalities and biases falling out of the community frictions, accumulating grievances, reciprocal accusations, and opportunistic methods to treat or remedy that chaos.

- - - footnote - - -

[1] I recall one scene in the German TV series "The Dark" of a school classroom that featured only one non-white student. Something that seemed astonishing compared to a current day American classroom. Those days of such isolated population and cultural uniformity will be over -- the time has come to enter the jagged miscellaneousness of the "real world".
_