Ага, мне интересно, когда человек получает от родителей разные гены, например, от одного ген доброты, а от другого ген агрессивности - как они проявляются в одном человеке? Что влияет на то, что одни гены выключат другие? Т.е., человек будет либо добрым, либо злым?
Where does the embryo store the memory of the development of the whole organism into a single system?
- Thread starter Olga
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DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
There aren't genes for kindness, though there are genes for sociability, which nurtures kindness.
This has a lot more to do with nurture than nature. Everybody has empathy and jealousy in them; nurture is what influences which they choose to manifest.
Ничего подобного, полно случаев, когда близнецы, выросшие вместе и получившие одинаковое воспитание, имели абсолютно разный характер.
Ken Fabian
Registered Senior Member
I think of it as a biochemical cascade starting a multitude of processes, with triggering conditions for starts and feedbacks for stops to particular growth sequences - eg threshold tensions on micro-tubules triggering chromosomes to separate and produce messenger molecules that make their way along them to the other end with a 'stop' signal. The microtubule tension pulls them apart during cell division -
(Drew Barry's animations of biochemical processes are awesome - what is being represented is amazing but not something I think any intelligence could design).
There is no 'blueprint' or any 'memory' as such, yet key sequences of DNA hold the key triggers and other sequences of DNA are triggered in turn; no outside (God) agency involved or required. Very complex, yes, yet each reaction (molecules binding to other molecules in specific ways, which may result in a new one - or in several - making the necessary components and triggers for other combinations. Not random combinings and breaking apart but very specific sequences of reactions.
(Drew Barry's animations of biochemical processes are awesome - what is being represented is amazing but not something I think any intelligence could design).
There is no 'blueprint' or any 'memory' as such, yet key sequences of DNA hold the key triggers and other sequences of DNA are triggered in turn; no outside (God) agency involved or required. Very complex, yes, yet each reaction (molecules binding to other molecules in specific ways, which may result in a new one - or in several - making the necessary components and triggers for other combinations. Not random combinings and breaking apart but very specific sequences of reactions.
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
Yes, I was not trying to suggest otherwise
Тогда что на это повлияло? Почему у них разные характеры? Даже у сиамских близнецов?
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
You're wandering. I came here to discuss the thread topic.
So are you satisfied you have an answer to the question in the thread title?
Pinball1970
Valued Senior Member
Yes the Embryo does not and cannot have memory.
.Я не увидела полноценного ответа. Мне непонятно, по какому принципу активируются, или выключаются те, или иные гены.
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
The short answer is: by the action of other genes.
1. Imagine getting a box under the Christmas tree that has one instruction on it: 'Open this on box Christmas Day'.
2. On Christmas Day you open the box, and inside is some treats and gizmos and some mysterious coloured boxes with no labels on them.
3. One of the boxes, a Green one has a note attached that says 'Open this box on Boxing Day'.
4. On Boxing Day, you open the Green box, and inside is a note in it that says "Open the Red Box and the Blue Box."
5. Inside the Red Box is more trinkets that attach to the first gizmos. There are instructions to throw away the wrappers that the gizmos came in.
6. Inside the Blue Box is more treats.
7. It also has a note that says "On the 27th, take the wrappers from the treats you ate on Christmas Day and put them in the Yellow Box. Close the yellow box and set it aside and await further instructions."
8. etc. etc.
Again, that is the subject of whole books.
Нам от предков достаются определённые гены. Например, способности к математике, или музыке. И склонность к определённым болезням тоже. Например, к алкоголизму. Как родитель алкоголик передаёт свои пороки детям?
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
There are genes related to alcoholic metabolism, yes.
Aptitudes like math and artistic talent are more subtle. My family has a predisposition for artistry. We probably inherited our large, well-connected, visual cortexes and hand-eye coordination from our father , but that's no guarantee we will all be painters. Some of us are musically- inclined.
Are ou satisfied that growing cells don't need to have "memory storage"?
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А кому нужно "хранилище памяти"? Что это вообще такое - "хранилище памяти"? Как оно выглядит?
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
Exactly.
So, yes, you have an answer to the question you asked in the opening post. You have realized the errors in the assertions you made there. Just wanted to ensure we had closure on that issue.
Я не закрыла. Вы не ответили на вопрос: что такое память в вашем понимании?
The definition of memory is easily found, did you look it up?
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
The question asked was Where does the embryo store the memory of the development of the whole organism into a single system?
That's been answered. You're welcome to continue to discuss the broader issue of memory if you wish, it just doesn't really interest me.
This is called "recapitulation theory" and is something currently discredited.
(the embryos of humans and those of other tail-less apes do have tails, though)
There is some superficial similarity between ontogenic stages and evolutionary/phylogenetic history, but it's not like the embryonic stages are functional mini-adults of ancestors, but rather a coincidence from some later evolutionary stages being largely additions to more basic, simpler homologue forms.
The evolution of the phenotype occurs through changes in embryonic development, and it's pretty much untenable that it would somehow manage to re-shape itself to the point of creating early embryos that look like perfect miniature adults of the current species rather than inheriting large chunks of early embryonic development and changing things more gradually, often near the final stages of development.
It's not really about "memory" of the lineage's evolution beyond the degree we can say that a species genome itself is a "memory" that retains a majority of ancestral genes dictating development, evolutionary divergence being determined only by a small fraction of genes and frequently affecting in the short evolutionary term mostly the later stages of embryonic development.
It's almost like fossils are "memories" of the Earth, only a metaphor.
The process here is:
- DNA is the pattern.
- An RNA polymerase molecule comes along and "unzips" the DNA strand at a specific spot.
- The polymerase creates mRNA (the antisense of the DNA) from the unzipped DNA.
- The mRNA moves away from the nucleus.
- A ribosome finds the mRNA and transcribes a protein.
- The protein folds itself and becomes functional.
- Proteins then determine what the next polymerase targets.
That's all VERY simplified of course. But as cells develop they specialize, and that specialization is caused by different proteins being expressed. Those proteins both determine the function of the cell and the next proteins that are transcribed.