When mods and trolls unite in order to close a thread

[RealityCheck]

Well, everyone.

There seems to be an 'internet forum' pattern for closing threads.

First the trolls and spoilers move in.

Then the mods add there little bit of noise and confusion while allowing the trolls etc until they feel sufficiently 'justified' in acting all surprised and indignant against the injured party who started the OP/thread.

And then the thread is closed.

And so another victory for the trolls and spoilers manipulating the mods to doing their premeditated bidding.

Not a good look for a supposed science site.

Any others here have any observations on the antics of the trolls/spoilers and mods acting in concert?

.

 

[wlminex]

It's a "vast left-wing conspiracy!!"

 

[KilljoyKlown]

Well, everyone.

There seems to be an 'internet forum' pattern for closing threads.

First the trolls and spoilers move in.

Then the mods add there little bit of noise and confusion while allowing the trolls etc until they feel sufficiently 'justified' in acting all surprised and indignant against the injured party who started the OP/thread.

And then the thread is closed.

And so another victory for the trolls and spoilers manipulating the mods to doing their premeditated bidding.

Not a good look for a supposed science site.

Any others here have any observations on the antics of the trolls/spoilers and mods acting in concert?

.

I do remember a mod said "another good thread ruined by trolls" thread closed. I remember thinking to myself that's odd. If it's a good topic, why not get rid of the trolls and all their off topic bickering and allow the thread to continue?

 

[RealityCheck]

RC couldn't let it go so the thread is closed. RC, next time you want to post a series of posts complaining about various people's behaviour don't. Make a single line post saying something along the lines of "Come on guys, let's stick to addressing the original post" and then, if you must, contact the people in question via PM. Or you can go over their heads and PM a moderator or use the report buttons. Or if you want to complain about moderators, PM an admin. If you want to complain about admin, leave the forum.

Of the 29 posts in this thread 11 are from RC. 3 are from Prom and Rpenner and everyone else has 2 or less. Prom's original post, which kicked RC off, was a single line and specifically said "To head off a long and messy thread....". Rather than going into off topic detail Prom gave a link to provide evidence for his case and that was it. Farsight was mistaken, there's no two ways about it. As such someone should have said so. Prom said it and demonstrated reason for his comment with a single line. You cannot respond any shorter than that. RC, you want informed discussion so someone correcting mistakes and pointing out errors should be welcomed. If you didn't like how Prom said it then you could have just made a nice and simple response like "Let's not bring previous disagreements into this thread.". You could also or alternatively asked "So does that mean you think Farsight was mistaken in his comments?", which would have allowed Prom (and perhaps Rpenner) to give further elaboration about why Farsight's response to your question was mistaken. Farsight was using Einstein as justification for his claim about fields. Einstein didn't justify what Farsight says about fields. Thus Farsight's response about fields was wrong. Farsight likes to quote Einstein, even when it is out of place and fails to support his position. He does this because he believes he has a grasp of Einstein beyond many other peoples'. This is a mindset many of us are aware of and Prom provided evidence for how Farsight has, in the post, quoted Einstein or relativity and gotten it wrong.

If you aren't interested in having a discussion where people can point out the misunderstandings or mistakes of others then either get a blog or make your own forum. This is a discussion forum and by posting your question in the main maths/physics forum you're implicitly asking for the input of people who know something about science. If you had posted it in pseudo then random suppositions and misrepresentations of science would slide in, to a degree, though you still shouldn't expect errors to go uncorrected, such is the nature of a forum.

RC, let's chalk this up to a learning experience. The manner in which you tried to 'moderate' this discussion was not a good one. I've given examples of how you could have gently curved the comments of Farsight and Prom back to the topic at hand. I suggest in future you try that tactic first because if you don't don't expect to keep your posting privileges. And they are privileges, not rights, make no mistake about that. If you want to try this discussion again then you can do so. However, since typically starting a new thread on a closed topic is itself a breaking of the rules and thus I'm being somewhat lenient if you react in the same way we'll skip the warning and jump straight to a short holiday.

And before you do anything in reaction to this post I suggest you go for a 5 minute walk around the block and then react. Hopefully that way you'll calm down and not do something which requires further action.

Bullsh!t, AN.

I tried all that before. No matter how nice one asks, the trolls and spoilers continue. The example you mods present only emboldens them in the knowledge that it is not they who are banned but the injured party who started the thread.

The problem is that you don't actually do your job. You only incite the trolls to more and more outrageous infractions which you ignore in preference for punishing the injured party who practically has to BEG for the trolls and spoilers (and sometimes the mod) to keep out.

All your high-faluting sounding 'options' are just so much window drssing and nothing ever comes of it except more grief for the injured party while the trolls and spoilers just laugh at you and USE YOU to close threads.

When one gets no proper response or assistance from the mods when it is made clear to them who and what is going on with the trolls and spoilers, all that the injured party gets is "THREAD CLOSED".

You are fooling no-one with your 'due process' silliness AFTER THE FACT and the damage is done.

Here's an idea*, AN/prometheus:

Get rid of the troll and spoiler posts and give THEM 'a holiday' INSTEAD of just closing a thread which would otherwise have proceeded politely and on the science as per the OP/author intended.

Get real, AN/prometheus.

RealityCheck.



*PS: Thanks for that, KilljoyKlown!

.

 

[rpenner]

1) How are you the injured party when it was explained to you the proper procedure to consult on unwanted posts?
2) Also, how is this thread that quotes the last post in a closed thread not an explicit reopening of a closed topic and thus direct antagonism of the moderators by defying their authority rather than the appeal procedure via PM to the admins as described?

 

[RealityCheck]

1) How are you the injured party when it was explained to you the proper procedure to consult on unwanted posts?
2) Also, how is this thread that quotes the last post in a closed thread not an explicit reopening of a closed topic and thus direct antagonism of the moderators by defying their authority rather than the appeal procedure via PM to the admins as described?

The 'procedure' is known. It does not work. The trolls win. The thread is closed. The AN post was used as the excuse/explanation for something that did not work. It was relevant and material to this thread pointing out the problem. Only the proactive removal and 'holidaying' of troll and spoiler posts will work. The damage is done if the thread is closed and the trolls and spoilers do not get properly dealt with on the spot so that a polite OP and polite respondents (one polite respondent being yourself in that now closed thread) can get on with the scientific discussion as intended by the author/OP. Your input was proper and polite and yet others came to intimidate and spoil and troll so that the mod could be manipulated (as always) to close the thread instead of their troll/spoiler posts being removed and they themselves being given the 'holiday' accordingly in order to send the message to the trolls and spoilers that it is not ok to use the mods and the system to sabotage and derail a perfectly good thread.

Thanks for your reply, rpenner (both here and in the closed thread). Much appreciated. A pity the mods closed the thread instead of getting rid of the problem posts. Then we could have proceeded to a fuller context discussion of all the polite on-topic replies after a couple more days. Too bad it has been trolled and spoiled to death with the (witting?/unwitting?) assistance of the mods concerned.

Your friend (really) in Science and Humanity, RealityCheck.


PS:

The problem is clear and common. The pattern is clear and common. The solution is clear and less unjust to threads/OPs. Get rid of the troll/spoiler posts as the thread goes along. No mess. No fuss. Just the science discourse intended.

But the trolls and spoilers keep getting their way, and the science discourse is aborted. What fun the trolls and spoilers must be having, using the mods for their own anti-science games.

 

[AlphaNumeric]

I tried all that before. No matter how nice one asks, the trolls and spoilers continue.

So the best course of action you can think of in response to what you perceive as thread ruining is to ruin your own thread?

The example you mods present only emboldens them in the knowledge that it is not they who are banned but the injured party who started the thread.

To be perfectly honest I cannot remember any other thread you've started. Not because I don't think you haven't started any but rather because you simply don't register on my interest scale. As such I went into that thread without having anything pre-determined about it. Upon opening the second page I find you posting sequential posts having lengthy rants at different people, most of whom had made relatively short posts, which sparked you off. Upon reading the start of the thread I see two replies from people with something on topic to say, Rpenner and Bruce, followed by Farsight and Prom. Farsight said something incorrect and not for the first time. Prom's reply was short, to the point and relevant in terms of preventing vapid suppositions based on ignorance derailing what might be an interesting discussion. Then, after the thread had continued half decently without there being an issue coming from Prom's reply to Farsight, you reply and the thread goes down faster than a drunk cheerleader on Prom Night.

As such, taking that thread at face value the derailing was down entirely to how you handled the situation.

The problem is that you don't actually do your job. You only incite the trolls to more and more outrageous infractions which you ignore in preference for punishing the injured party who practically has to BEG for the trolls and spoilers (and sometimes the mod) to keep out.

Your initial reply wasn't playing the injured party, it wasn't in response to a completely irrelevant post, it was a hissy fit over Prom pointing out Farsight was mistaken and it had happened in the past. There was no 'more and more outrageous infractions', at least not until you posted your replies.

All your high-faluting sounding 'options' are just so much window drssing and nothing ever comes of it except more grief for the injured party while the trolls and spoilers just laugh at you and USE YOU to close threads.

I can't remember the legal terminology but trying to assert you know the minds of someone else is flawed and generally unfounded reasoning.Threads which are not appropriate for the main forum will be moved. It happens regularly. As for using me, I use my moderating powers very rarely. I know you have an issue with Prom, saying he is on some moderator power trip, but 890% of my use of mod powers is to ban spammers. I actually try to avoid using my moderator powers, often leaving threads alone only to come back later to find someone else has done something to it. So this "They use YOU" thing is at best hyperbole. You might think Prom over uses his powers but there aren't whole waves of closures so even he isn't being used by the whims of other people. Your comments sound like you're just railing against your view of the moderators as a single entity, rather than the actual behaviour of individual moderators and their interactions with members.

When one gets no proper response or assistance from the mods when it is made clear to them who and what is going on with the trolls and spoilers, all that the injured party gets is "THREAD CLOSED".

As I said, if you have an issue with moderators, take it up with admin. If you have an issue with admin leave.

You are fooling no-one with your 'due process' silliness AFTER THE FACT and the damage is done.

As I said, the thread managed to continue okay for a few posts, until you arrived. If you'd just let it go then nothing would have happened. Besides, I do not keep track of posts 24 hours. You see I have this thing called a real life, where I have to do real things. As it happens I'm currently up to my eyeballs in work (it's 1.06am on a Sunday and I have spent my Saturday coding linear algebra into R) so don't go through the forum with a fine tooth comb. And even if I had the thread was fine until Emil broke the rules and posted a PM he'd been sent and you posted your hissy fit(s). If I had read the thread after Prom had posted I'd have left it was it was, even ignoring Emil's rule violation, because I'm not chomping at the bit to use my mod powers.

Get rid of the troll and spoiler posts and give THEM 'a holiday' INSTEAD of just closing a thread which would otherwise have proceeded politely and on the science as per the OP/author intended.[/b]

The person at fault in that thread was you. Your multiple posts having a tantrum destroyed it. It wasn't even worth cutting posts out of the thread and leaving the thread. I did say you can start the discussion again, so it's not like I'm quashing the subject. I also didn't give you a warning, though I could have, for your behaviour because I'm not chomping at the bit to use my mod powers.

Personally I think you have somewhat of a chip on your shoulder when it comes to the maths/physics forum. You obviously have some kind of kindred spirit thing going on with the posters who aren't interested in informed discussion and prefer pseudo-science. Such behaviour from you isn't new but on PhysForums it wasn't quite as pronounced. The facts Prom is a mod, you'd had issues with him before and he commented on the mistake of Farsight all synergised into your repeated outbursts. If you are so sick of the forum and the posters here leave. Farsight has his own forum, why don't you go there so you can all talk about, to use Farsight's terminology, the 'barest essense' of space-time or misrepresent Einstein. I don't know if you've got a chip on your shoulder about science or what but it isn't unnoticed you're not exactly Mr Cheery when it comes to people correcting you. Were you just looking for a reason to have a go at Prom? Where you annoyed someone had commented Farsight, with whom you have some vague rapport about non-mainstream mentalities, was mistaken? Did someone just piss in your cornflakes?

Who knows but your actions are hardly that of a man taking the high ground.

 

[RealityCheck]

So the best course of action you can think of in response to what you perceive as thread ruining is to ruin your own thread?

To be perfectly honest I cannot remember any other thread you've started. Not because I don't think you haven't started any but rather because you simply don't register on my interest scale. As such I went into that thread without having anything pre-determined about it. Upon opening the second page I find you posting sequential posts having lengthy rants at different people, most of whom had made relatively short posts, which sparked you off. Upon reading the start of the thread I see two replies from people with something on topic to say, Rpenner and Bruce, followed by Farsight and Prom. Farsight said something incorrect and not for the first time. Prom's reply was short, to the point and relevant in terms of preventing vapid suppositions based on ignorance derailing what might be an interesting discussion. Then, after the thread had continued half decently without there being an issue coming from Prom's reply to Farsight, you reply and the thread goes down faster than a drunk cheerleader on Prom Night.

As such, taking that thread at face value the derailing was down entirely to how you handled the situation.

Your initial reply wasn't playing the injured party, it wasn't in response to a completely irrelevant post, it was a hissy fit over Prom pointing out Farsight was mistaken and it had happened in the past. There was no 'more and more outrageous infractions', at least not until you posted your replies.

I can't remember the legal terminology but trying to assert you know the minds of someone else is flawed and generally unfounded reasoning.Threads which are not appropriate for the main forum will be moved. It happens regularly. As for using me, I use my moderating powers very rarely. I know you have an issue with Prom, saying he is on some moderator power trip, but 890% of my use of mod powers is to ban spammers. I actually try to avoid using my moderator powers, often leaving threads alone only to come back later to find someone else has done something to it. So this "They use YOU" thing is at best hyperbole. You might think Prom over uses his powers but there aren't whole waves of closures so even he isn't being used by the whims of other people. Your comments sound like you're just railing against your view of the moderators as a single entity, rather than the actual behaviour of individual moderators and their interactions with members.

As I said, if you have an issue with moderators, take it up with admin. If you have an issue with admin leave.

As I said, the thread managed to continue okay for a few posts, until you arrived. If you'd just let it go then nothing would have happened. Besides, I do not keep track of posts 24 hours. You see I have this thing called a real life, where I have to do real things. As it happens I'm currently up to my eyeballs in work (it's 1.06am on a Sunday and I have spent my Saturday coding linear algebra into R) so don't go through the forum with a fine tooth comb. And even if I had the thread was fine until Emil broke the rules and posted a PM he'd been sent and you posted your hissy fit(s). If I had read the thread after Prom had posted I'd have left it was it was, even ignoring Emil's rule violation, because I'm not chomping at the bit to use my mod powers.

The person at fault in that thread was you. Your multiple posts having a tantrum destroyed it. It wasn't even worth cutting posts out of the thread and leaving the thread. I did say you can start the discussion again, so it's not like I'm quashing the subject. I also didn't give you a warning, though I could have, for your behaviour because I'm not chomping at the bit to use my mod powers.

Personally I think you have somewhat of a chip on your shoulder when it comes to the maths/physics forum. You obviously have some kind of kindred spirit thing going on with the posters who aren't interested in informed discussion and prefer pseudo-science. Such behaviour from you isn't new but on PhysForums it wasn't quite as pronounced. The facts Prom is a mod, you'd had issues with him before and he commented on the mistake of Farsight all synergised into your repeated outbursts. If you are so sick of the forum and the posters here leave. Farsight has his own forum, why don't you go there so you can all talk about, to use Farsight's terminology, the 'barest essense' of space-time or misrepresent Einstein. I don't know if you've got a chip on your shoulder about science or what but it isn't unnoticed you're not exactly Mr Cheery when it comes to people correcting you. Were you just looking for a reason to have a go at Prom? Where you annoyed someone had commented Farsight, with whom you have some vague rapport about non-mainstream mentalities, was mistaken? Did someone just piss in your cornflakes?

Who knows but your actions are hardly that of a man taking the high ground.

AN, seriously, what planet do you live on?

My time zone is different to most posters. When I come back there is usually a backlog of posts I have to respond to. Hence the series of posts. If you paid attention, that would be clear as to why I have to post like that for a backlog.


And like I said, I posted clearly that I was waiting for people to post to ME their replies to the OP request for definitions/implications as asked.

I did NOT appreciate prometheus coming in with is size 15 jackboots and INTIMIDATING the posters who may have otherwise given me their replies without fear or favour in the back of their minds.

I will not tolerate anyone (mod or member) effectively limiting my right to HEAR WHAT OTHERS WANT TO SAY TO THE OP.

prometheus had no right to 'correct' or bring into my thread something HE had a problem with another poster about. It is precisely the answers from Farsight and others which I want to discuss BEFORE any 'corrections' became clear through that discussion LATER depending on the course of the discussion of ALL the replies.


And the trolls and off-topic posts could have easily been removed by the mod concerned, and nothing more would need to have been said.

BUT INSTEAD, prometheus and the other posters CONTINUED with their trolls and spoiling posts not addressing the OP but rather continuing the 'personal' garbage and ego trips at the expense of serious scientific contributions which might otherwise have been made by others IF they were not put off AGAIN by mods and trolls etc acting like they are not interested in the science but in the personalities.

Your latest round of 'advice' (useless) is a perfect eample of where instead of actually solving the problem by getting rid of the trolls etc posts, you just make EXCUSES for inaction, and then add insult to injury by mouthing platitudes and useless 'process' which seems to be the plaything of the trolls and spoilers to manipulate!

Like I said. Get real and act against the trolls and spoilers who cause all this with the intention of having threads closed irrespective of the science/merit. If you don't do that, then you and the process are impotent and only add fuel to the problem. Not good.

Please stop with the vacuous platitudes and ineffective advice. Just do your job properly and evenhandedly and all will be well, and such discussions as these will be a thing of the past on this otherwise excellent forum.

Thanks.

Your friend (yes, really) in Science and Humanity, RealityCheck.
.

 

[Syne]

Accusing the mods of being used seems to be nothing but an attempt to coerce the mods into being used by this OP. Terribly transparent.

But I have to agree with RPenner. Seems the OP has only continued what got his thread closed here, granted, in a better section than math/physics.

 

[AlexG]

This is exactly the behavior which has gotten him banned at other sites.

 

[RealityCheck]

Accusing the mods of being used seems to be nothing but an attempt to coerce the mods into being used by this OP. Terribly transparent.

But I have to agree with RPenner. Seems the OP has only continued what got his thread closed here, granted, in a better section than math/physics.

You wouldn't be one-eyed and biased about all this, would you?

After all, you are one of the 'usual suspects' involved in the trolling and spoiling which gets a thread closed.

Methinks you 'agree too much' when it suits your trollish tactics/ends.

A bit transparent of you, hey?

Did you bother to read the reply to that before you made your opinion/agreement known? No. That would be too much like fair play. And we know all too well that is not what interests you, don't we?

And it's a bit rich for you the troll who plays the mods for suckers, and uses them like described, to be saying anything about me using them. And if you think they CAN be played like that, then it proves my point, hey?

Either way, your transparent and trollish tactics have been rumbled. Too bad if you don't like the limelight being shone on you and your trollish mates opinion of the mods and the way you view them as having easy virtue to 'be played' by whomever.

You're in trouble now!


.

 

[pjdude1219]

I do remember a mod said "another good thread ruined by trolls" thread closed. I remember thinking to myself that's odd. If it's a good topic, why not get rid of the trolls and all their off topic bickering and allow the thread to continue?

because trolls are like zombies they keep coming till someone splatters their brains on the floor

 

[RealityCheck]

This is exactly the behavior which has gotten him banned at other sites.

Why is it that you always get your facts wrong?

Only one site, not 'sites' plural.

And it was because of exactly the same pattern of bait and troll and spoil and close and ban mods-and-trolls combination as the recent episode here.

So you are just one more of 'the usual suspects' troll and spoiler gang who uses the tactics highlighted here for all to see for themselves.

So, not only do you always get your facts wrong, but you also are part of the problem.

Why should anyone take anything you post on this seriously, troll?

The very fact that you and your troll gangmates are still allowed to operate openly like this is just proving my point for me. Thanks.

 

[James R]

I think you've got your point across, RealityCheck. There seems little that is worthy of discussion here.

Thread closed.