What would aliens need to develop a technological civilisation?

[Roosters for ever]

If you have an alternative explanation that is consistent with the facts that doesn't require making up new evidence or changing the existing evidence, be my guest. What I see from you all is bunch of generalized statements that make no sense and don't address the facts. Pure crackpottery!

Nothing in nature produces this much radiation. Show me evidence otherwise.

Noting but technology can produce this much radiation, and it certainly wasn't technology from humans in 1886. It is pure logic, not speculation.

The answer is simple. Unknown, Unidentified, a mystery. End of story. Except to relate my own story. Yes, I personally have seen a UFO/UAP. Many years ago I was driving along a coastal road in Sydney, when I noticed a bright sky blue disk on the horizon, the same apparent size as an overhead Moon. It sort of traversed the horizon for about 20 seconds or so, until disappearing below. I was really fascinated with what I observed and it kept me awake for a few hours when I got home. The next morning I got out of bed, turned on the telly, got the newspaper, for any account of any visitation or similar sighting by anyone else. No mention at all. I wondered about it for the next couple of days, and came to the conclusion, I may have been hallucinating or seeing things, (which I don't normally do) or it was possibly a reflection of some sort, or some unusual type of meteorological occurrence. Simply put, It remains "Unidentified" Why is that simple answer so hard to accept? I accept that the possibility of life elsewhere, (including intelligent life) is highly likely in a Universe of near infinite extent, near infinite content, and "the stuff of life" being everywhere we have looked. I also accept that as yet we have no evidence to confirm that very likely situation. I can only hope that such extraordinary evidence confirming we are not alone, can be discovered before I kick the bucket. Out of the literally hundreds of UFO events that people claim were visitations, most remain easily and quickly dismissed. Yours, along with another "sighting by school children in Zimbabwe in 1994, may remain what many claim as "convincing" but again, as I said elsewhere, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and neither have that extraordinary evidence. I mean a confirmed, visitation of extra-terrestrial life, would be a mind blowing, historical, event. Extraordinary evidence? a dead (or alive) Alien, some Alien verified artifact, Alien excreta, or similar. Finally, despite the two great barriers preventing Inter-planetary/galactic contact, (time and distance) if any Alien were to visit our Earth, why wouldn't they make themselves known? What would they be afraid of? Obviously they would be far more intelligent then us.

 

[James R]

Finally, despite the two great barriers preventing Inter-planetary/galactic contact, (time and distance) if any Alien were to visit our Earth, why wouldn't they make themselves known? What would they be afraid of? Obviously they would be far more intelligent then us.

Not necessarily more intelligent. More technologically advanced, certainly.

 

[Roosters for ever]

Not necessarily more intelligent. More technologically advanced, certainly.

I sought of conflate the two. Although it would also depend on biological aspects and such. eg: I once saw an argument that Octupuses/pi were so intelligent that they could potentially become the dominant species on Earth. I saw that as rather silly simply based on the premise that they did not have the required physical makeup and biology to achieve that. eg: very short life spans, lacking an opposing thumb.

 

[Randwolf]

... they did not have the required physical makeup and biology to achieve that. eg: very short life spans, lacking an opposing thumb.

While "very short life spans" certainly limits the potential for dominance, I'm not so sure about the "opposing thumb" argument.

Octopuses are capable of great dexterity. Their hydrostatic arms provide an infinite degree of freedom and offer an entirely different, and in some ways more flexible, means of manipulating their environment.

Aquatic lifeforms would also face great difficulty manipulating fire - almost a prerequisite for technological achievement.

However, given sufficient deep time for evolutionary advancement, who knows?

 

[Roosters for ever]

Octopuses are capable of great dexterity. Their hydrostatic arms provide an infinite degree of freedom and offer an entirely different, and in some ways more flexible, means of manipulating their environment.

Bingo to that! Some of the things they have reported to have done, are incredible. And to a lesser degree, dolphins and Orcas. One can only imagine what may exist in the Oceans of Europa or the interior of Enceladus.

 

[exchemist]

While "very short life spans" certainly limits the potential for dominance, I'm not so sure about the "opposing thumb" argument.

Octopuses are capable of great dexterity. Their hydrostatic arms provide an infinite degree of freedom and offer an entirely different, and in some ways more flexible, means of manipulating their environment.

Aquatic lifeforms would also face great difficulty manipulating fire - almost a prerequisite for technological achievement.

However, given sufficient deep time for evolutionary advancement, who knows?

Perhaps they might harness heat from undersea volcanic vents, though? One could envisage heat engines exploiting the termperature differences between those and the ambient ocean. Controlling electricity would be difficult though, submerged in a conductive medium.

 

[Randwolf]

Perhaps they might harness heat from undersea volcanic vents, though? One could envisage heat engines exploiting the termperature differences between those and the ambient ocean. Controlling electricity would be difficult though, submerged in a conductive medium.

Possibly.

Another alternative might be sound. The cetaceans do amazing things with sound, at least for communication and "mapping."

Some of the "woo" theories claim the Egyptians and other ancient civilizations used sound to levitate those ginormous stone blocks. We have managed to sonically levitate objects in the modern day, albeit very tiny objects. So, who knows? Maybe...

 

[DaveC426913]

Controlling electricity would be difficult though, submerged in a conductive medium.

1] When we landlubbers have a medium that is inconvenient for our tech, we simply put it in a box that keeps the problem out: might be airtight, heat-insulated, light-tight. Works great for us. No reason they can't do their electrical shenanigans in a box. Say, one that contains pure, distilled (non-conductive) water.

2] It's also possible to work the problem from the other direction. We live in an environment that, by default, does not conduct electricity, so we make conductive pathways to route the electricity (wires, circuits). In a biome where the very environment is permeated with electricity, they woulda cept that as a given and - rather than buld routes for current to flow - they would build walls to stop current from flowing where they don't want it to. Their circuit boards would be designed sort of inside out.

3] Other means for construction and computation: crystal growth.

I've asked to have this fascinating sidebar about hypothetical non-human technology split off into its own thread.

 

[Roosters for ever]

One other thought, why would the present most intelligent creature/lifeform, be certain to be the dominant species if we, (humanity) become extinct? Which we most probably will long before the sun enters its giant red phase. How successful are those forms of life we tread on and squash in our society? eg: cockroaches, ants, etc. Probably not so much "dominant" as we are discussing, but more "over running the planet" Stephen Gould from memory speculated likewise. Then of course we have our other species of great Apes like Chimps, Gorillas, Bonobos etc as the "Planet of the Apes" series speculated. And then what of the other extinction events our planet has gone through? Did any particular species dominate? Dinosaurs? And finally bacteria and viruses are to be considered. Afterall they literally saved humanity as the story goes in the movie "war of the Worlds"

 

[Randwolf]

Dinosaurs?

I had a thought about dinosaurs. If a certain species of dinosaur had progressed to the point of using fire, how would we know it? It is highly unlikely that any evidence whatsoever of such activity would remain. I'm not talking about a full blown Silurian hypothesis here, just simple fire manipulation - the ability to start and maintain fires at will.

It seems like not such a far fetched idea. After all, extant dinosaurs use fire to catch prey - Fire Hawks. If not for a certain meteorite (or whatever your favorite explanation for the demise of dinosaurs is), they could easily be the "dominant" form of life on Earth today.

 

[TheVat]

Sounds like we want to consider what we mean by technology, in this reckoning. For example, if we make space faring an element, then a species would need fuel for fire, and enough metallic elements in the planets crust, in order to fabricate ships. Spacecraft composed of bamboo or wood or stone are unlikely to get far. On a water world, with aquatic creatures, it would be so challenging to produce large dry combustion chambers (as some here note) that a civilization might want to focus on other sorts of tech, like DaveC426913 's "inside out" circuits or Randwolf 's sonic tech. (You too can learn to operate a Weirding Module...)

There are also cultural variations we can scarcely imagine, like say, aliens who are so averse to pollution they might not want an industrial revolution, or lack drivers of innovation like large-scale warfare or climate extremes. One can imagine aliens for whom an apex of technology is fine musical instruments and communication systems engineered for philosophy seminars. Or a race which masters botanical manipulation to where they grow furniture and buildings, and have a strong ethos that all tech must be composed of living tissue. For all we know, our monkey cleverness with metallurgy, fabrication and high energy machines makes us galactic outliers, and most sentient races will remain invisible to our SETI searches.

Random extra: a metal-poor world could encourage earlier development of wireless and battery technologies, due to the expense of slinging miles of conducting wires for telecom or power.

 

[DaveC426913]

And finally bacteria and viruses are to be considered. Afterall they literally saved humanity as the story goes in the movie "war of the Worlds"

Not just in fiction. Historically, they really did.

Cyanobacteria (blue-green algae) were so successful 2Gy ago that they poisoned their own CO2 atmosphere, wiping out most anaerobic life on the planet, paving the way for oxygen-based life.

Humans were neither the first nor the best purveyors of extinction-by-global-pollution.

 

[Wizard of Whatever]

Could develop a totally different basis for their tech that would seem like magic to us.

For example, telepathy, telekinesis, teleportation (short and long range), pyrokinesis, levitation, direct manifestation, self-healing, certain defensive abilities, etc.

 

[Pinball1970]

Not just in fiction. Historically, they really did.

Cyanobacteria (blue-green algae) were so successful 2Gy ago that they poisoned their own CO2 atmosphere, wiping out most anaerobic life on the planet, paving the way for oxygen-based life.

Humans were neither the first nor the best purveyors of extinction-by-global-pollution.

The Oxygen extinction even was a big one.

 

[James R]

Could develop a totally different basis for their tech that would seem like magic to us.

Why do you think that's possible?

For example, telepathy, telekinesis, teleportation (short and long range), pyrokinesis, levitation, direct manifestation, self-healing, certain defensive abilities, etc.

There's no evidence that telepathy, telekinesis or pyrokinesis actually exist, or could exist. How could something that doesn't exist be a basis for technology?

 

[Ken Fabian]

Perhaps they might harness heat from undersea volcanic vents, though? One could envisage heat engines exploiting the termperature differences between those and the ambient ocean. Controlling electricity would be difficult though, submerged in a conductive medium.

Electrochemistry seems possible under water with combinations of conductive. waterproof and insulating materials and a lot might be done with it including chemical production of electricity and even for refining metals. Electrical phenomena are intrinsic to animal biological functions and aquatic creatures are known to use electricity defensively, to hunt, to communicate, to navigate. And even if not able to endure air for prolonged periods a coastal creature may still be able to make use of 'terrestrial' resources, including use of fire.

I have never found the argument that the human form with opposable thumbs (or less commonly cite) versatile shoulder joints for strong, accurate throwing are essential ingredients to adopting tool use as a primary survival strategy, even if the human example might have been advantaged by or even required them. The ability to use fibres to make cords and ropes, nets and traps is easier for us with our hands but it is clear that birds are examples of being able to make useful woven structures without hands like ours.

 

[exchemist]

Electrochemistry seems possible under water with combinations of conductive. waterproof and insulating materials and a lot might be done with it including chemical production of electricity and even for refining metals. Electrical phenomena are intrinsic to animal biological functions and aquatic creatures are known to use electricity defensively, to hunt, to communicate, to navigate. And even if not able to endure air for prolonged periods a coastal creature may still be able to make use of 'terrestrial' resources, including use of fire.

I have never found the argument that the human form with opposable thumbs (or less commonly cite) versatile shoulder joints for strong, accurate throwing are essential ingredients to adopting tool use as a primary survival strategy, even if the human example might have been advantaged by or even required them. The ability to use fibres to make cords and ropes, nets and traps is easier for us with our hands but it is clear that birds are examples of being able to make useful woven structures without hands like ours.

Not to mention the cephalopods. Octopuses (octopoi?) are able to manipulate objects with dexterity and seem to have quite a high degree of intelligence. One could certainly envisage a water-based alien life form of that type developing a high intelligence and a technology. Terrestrial locomotion would not be easy, though, with a body plan like that.

 

[DaveC426913]

Terrestrial locomotion would not be easy, though, with a body plan like that.

There's no reason why it couldn't evolve terrestrially, just as we did. Consider a terrestrial cephalopod that evolves converegently with snakes - say, sidewinders:

 

[exchemist]

There's no reason why it couldn't evolve terrestrially, just as we did. Consider a terrestrial cephalopod that evolves converegently with snakes - say, sidewinders:

View attachment 7351

I was thinking of the syphon. But yes, I suppose tentacles could adapt to more rapid propulsion.

 

[TheVat]

Not to mention the cephalopods. Octopuses (octopoi?) are able to manipulate objects with dexterity and seem to have quite a high degree of intelligence. One could certainly envisage a water-based alien life form of that type developing a high intelligence and a technology. Terrestrial locomotion would not be easy, though, with a body plan like that.

Ted Chiang seems to have explored the cephalopod concept.

Arrival (film) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On board, Banks and Donnelly make contact with two cephalopod-like, seven-limbed aliens, whom they call "heptapods"; Donnelly nicknames them Abbott and Costello. Banks and Donnelly research the complex written language of the heptapods, consisting of phrases written with logograms, and share the results with other nations.