# What is time?

French

I wouldn't be so quick at saying that. Are you implying that you understand more than this Barbour. I think instead of insulting you might give some proof for your part.

If you read and understood my post, you would see the proof for yourself.

It is not very prudent to take this kind of thing as a fact. Just becuase Einstein said it, does not make it true.

Einstein didn't say it.

Apart from this id just like to give a little food for thought. Time doesn't make a hot soup cold or a cold soup hot, directly. Time only lets the mechanisms for the universe work their magic.

Again, if you read my post, you would see that it was the direction of increase of entropy I was referring, not time.

So The only way our minds work is through the passing of time.

Gwwwwaaaaaaaggghhhhhhkkkkhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!%@#&%^$%$%

Gawzirra smash Q ... Gawzirra Smash Tokyo!!!!

now and then

all is my assumptions

if we measure our universe in 3D we get a map.
If we take one point of the map- let's say Earth.
We live at the present time and place

ok- so my question is-> does future exist now?
future for the particular point in the universe

we can go freely in 3D environment then theoretically we should be able to somehow go in a 4D environment also.

and we go- slowly forward.
But if the future is right here, now then theoretically we should be somehow able to go forward in it faster
(and we can, if we go through space around earth close to light speed)

so- what limits or what is required for us to go back in time relative to our earth instead of forward?

and if not- what doesn't allow us to do that

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--It is not very prudent to take this kind of thing as a fact. Just becuase Einstein said it, does not make it true. --

"Einstein didn't say it. "

"these dimensions are not completely separable as Einstein shows how distance and time can to some degree be exchanged."

I think this is what i was refering to when i said "said".

---Apart from this id just like to give a little food for thought. Time doesn't make a hot soup cold or a cold soup hot, directly. Time only lets the mechanisms for the universe work their magic. ---

"Again, if you read my post, you would see that it was the direction of increase of entropy I was referring, not time. "

What does this sentence say to you Q:

"The most fundamental aspect of time is the effect that makes a cold beverage warm and a warm soup cold"

Maybe if you read your own post you would find it quite interesting.

"we can go freely in 3D environment then theoretically we should be able to somehow go in a 3D environment also. "

Sorry, did you mean 4D when you said "3D" the second time?
If you did, then I could say that this was only if time WAS a dimention. Time has been thought of as such, but there really is no evidence whatsoever. It is just a very interesting theory and is a better theory than "time just exists, period" so we use it. If it is a dimention, your right.

"so- what limits or what is required for us to go back in time relative to our earth instead of forward?"

Well i don't know, but it wouldn't be relative to the earth, it would be relative to a certain point in time.

French

What does this sentence say to you Q:

"The most fundamental aspect of time is the effect that makes a cold beverage warm and a warm soup cold"

Not much because there is no reference to the "effect."

However, if you were to read the entire sentence, you might find out what is the reference to the "effect." I will bold it out for you so you don't miss it again:

The most fundamental aspect of time is the effect that makes a cold beverage warm and a warm soup cold, the same effect that causes us to remember as well as forget the past but not the future, the effect that is the direction in which computers work, the effect which is the direction of increase in entropy.

FYI - A comma indicates a break in a sentence, it does not signify the end of a sentence. That job is left to the period.

If you're having trouble reading a sentence in its entirety, I would be happy to take the Hemingway approach.

(No, I won't blow my head off.)

"No, I won't blow my head off."

Funney man, seriously.

"The most fundamental aspect of time is the effect that makes a cold beverage warm and a warm soup cold, the same effect that causes us to remember as well as forget the past but not the future, the effect that is the direction in which computers work, the effect which is the direction of increase in entropy. "

Sure, sure. If I were to take that, i would say that ENTROPY makes a cold beverage warm and vice versa, not time. Time only lets things work the way the highly evasive laws of nature allow them to. Besides, if you define entropy as the increase in disorganization, as my biology book says, I don't believe in the "law" of entropy. Entropy is not a law, it is a generalization, and like most generalizations, they are not accurate.

The "effect" of entropy is not an aspect of time, it is an observation.

can you tell me of cases where entropy might not be working?

French

Besides, if you define entropy as the increase in disorganization, as my biology book says, I don't believe in the "law" of entropy.

Entropy is a measure of microscopic disorder, and according to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, increases with time. On a macroscopic scale, entropy increases when heat is added to a thermodynamic system at an absolute temperature relative to an arbitrary zero point. Therefore, as temperature increases, so does the entropy of a system.

Entropy is not a law, it is a generalization, and like most generalizations, they are not accurate.

Actually, the laws of thermodynamics are generalizations determined empirically by repeated scientific experiments. The second law is a generalization dealing with entropy.

The "effect" of entropy is not an aspect of time, it is an observation.

The direction of the effect of entropy IS an aspect of time.

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If the energy and volume of a system are constant and never change, entropy remains zero.

I doubt that it can be observed smwhere in our universe if not in singularities

but then- if the entropy/dissorder of our universe gets bigger and bigger and if we come to a big crunch (I know it's only one of the theories) then we have a paradox that the greatest entropy turns in the greatest order

i know this will take some criticism, but if

power=energy /time,

conversly, by algebra we can say

time=energy/power

but then again, power is defined by time, so i guess this wouldnt qualify as a definition right?

distance = velocity * time
d=vt
thus (?)
time=distance/velocity
ergo:
distance/velocity = energy/power ??

don't thinkso

"Entropy is a measure of microscopic disorder"
- Q

Disorder is an opinion, and opinions are not theories. You can't say disorder increases, or heat increases in the universe. Thats just like saying humans become more evil....

What is energy? (i have a definition that is pretty vauge, im sure yours is as much so)

What is power? (that i don't have a scientific definition for)

French

Disorder is an opinion, and opinions are not theories.

Can you provide some explanation as to why disorder would be considered an opinion ? Opinion by whom ?

You can't say disorder increases, or heat increases in the universe.

SLofT - The entropy of a closed system shall never decrease, and shall increase whenever possible.

Thats just like saying humans become more evil....

Wrong analogy.

What is energy? (i have a definition that is pretty vauge, im sure yours is as much so)

That depends on what you're referring; kinetic, thermal... All definitions of energy are definitive.

What is power? (that i don't have a scientific definition for)

Again, what reference to power ?

"Can you provide some explanation as to why disorder would be considered an opinion ? Opinion by whom ? "

I would be happy to. How can you judge 'order'? You could say it has a pattern to it, but it is all in perspective. How can you prove that the universe will have more 'pattern' later than now? The universe is not -trying- to loose heat, it just so happens that that is what is going on in suns, the major composition of the universe.

How can you distinguish order from disorder without giving an opinion? You can say that people running around and screaming is disorderly, but what do you base that on, the fact that noone knows what they are doing? I can tell you that most people don't know what they are doing anyway...

"The entropy of a closed system shall never decrease, and shall increase whenever possible."

ok..... fine you can SAY it, but it doesn't mean its true. By the way, good job on the -saying-.

"Wrong analogy." - this shows your idea on opinions....

"Again, what reference to power ?"

.... don't make me come over there and slap you. On Radioactive Waves said :
"power=energy /time,"

that is what im talking about.

How can you judge 'order'? .... How can you prove that the universe will have more 'pattern' later than now?
Structuring, or ordering, is in fact a collapse (or any decrease) in degrees of freedomwithin the system.
The degrees of freedom can be quantified. Thus we can judge 'order'

Merlijn

"Structuring, or ordering, is in fact a collapse (or any decrease) in degrees of freedomwithin the system.
The degrees of freedom can be quantified. Thus we can judge 'order'"

What do you mean by degrees of freedom? Books say life is more organized, how does life have less degrees of freedom?

Originally posted by Frencheneesz
Merlijn

"Structuring, or ordering, is in fact a collapse (or any decrease) in degrees of freedomwithin the system.
The degrees of freedom can be quantified. Thus we can judge 'order'"

What do you mean by degrees of freedom? Books say life is more organized, how does life have less degrees of freedom?

Interesting question. I also find the "order decreases" a bit counterintuitive. I know that it is a global property of a closed system so locally the order can increase (such as the formation of life). However when we look at the universe we see order increasing everywhere: formation of atoms, galaxies, life etc. How can that be.
Another question is: how can degrees of freedom increase or decrease when all the physical laws are reversible: the degrees of freedom in such a system must stay the same.

Greetings,

Han.

Another question is: how can degrees of freedom increase or decrease when all the physical laws are reversible: the degrees of freedom in such a system must stay the same.
increasing the degrees of freedom (df) in a system is easy.... take for example a drop of water in a closed bottle. the water will evaporate, causing the df the increase.