What is the difference between a vaccine using RNA vs DNA?

[Dennis Tate]

This article sounds like good advice.....

This is a good place to put this article so that I can finish reading it later on.....

My immediate reaction is that drinking extra water may assist the body to get rid of some additives like :

Formaldehyde has a long history of safe use in the manufacture of certain viral and bacterial vaccines. It is used to inactivate viruses so that they don't cause disease (e.g., polio virus used to make polio vaccine) and to detoxify bacterial toxins, such as the toxin used to make diphtheria vaccine

Does drinking water reduce side effects after a COVID-19 shot?
Good hydration might help ward off COVID-19 infection. But the science is murky on exactly how and why drinking before an injection might alter your immune reaction.

The advice comes from neighbors, magazine articles, clinic websites, even nurses: drink a lot of water before and after your COVID-19 vaccine to help ward off side-effects.

The problem: There is no evidence that drinking extra water can help ward off the sore arms, body aches, and fevers that some people experience after getting their COVID-19 vaccine shots.

Water-chugging also won’t reduce the chances of fainting for people who are prone to lightheadedness with needles.

Here’s what we know about how water might influence your vaccine response and general health, based on the evidence available.

Vaccination and water
Scientists have not conducted randomized trials to see how drinking—or not drinking—water before getting your injection might affect antibody levels or other immune responses. It’s a complicated question to sort out, in part because the immune response follows two main paths: In the long-term, it helps the body mount lasting defenses against the virus. On a shorter time-scale, the vaccine also causes the “innate” immune response, which is responsible for side effects some people feel after they get their shots. Researchers have conflicting opinions about water’s role in all of it.

 

[Dennis Tate]

I just noticed a headline that raises a number of questions.

Is this virus mutating too quickly for the vaccines to really stop it?

This brings me back to the option of boosting our immune systems in other ways than a vaccine.


https://time.com/6047442/covid-19-spreads-despite-vaccines-seychelles/
COVID-19 Is Surging in the World’s Most Vaccinated Nation

Seychelles, which has vaccinated more of its population against Covid-19 than any other country, saw active cases more than double in the week to May 7, raising concerns that inoculation is not helping turn the tide in some places.

The World Health Organization said vaccine failure couldn’t be determined without a detailed assessment and that it was working on evaluating the situation.

Kate O’Brien, director of the the WHO’s department of immunization, vaccines and biologicals, told a briefing Monday that the body was in direct communication with Seychelles and that a detailed assessment was needed looking at factors like strains of the virus and the severity of cases.

The Health Ministry of the archipelago off of Africa’s east coast said Monday that the number of active cases had more than doubled since last week to 2,486 people, and 37% of those have received two vaccine doses. Cases are also surging in the Maldives, another Indian Ocean island nation that’s a popular tourism destination.

In Seychelles, Sinopharm shots were issued to 57% of those who were fully inoculated and the rest with Covishield, a vaccine made in India under a license from AstraZeneca Plc. As of May 8 no one who had contracted Covid while being vaccinated had died, Seychelles News Agency reported, citing the minister for foreign affairs and tourism.

The Seychelles, a group of palm-fringed tropical islands, last week re-imposed curbs including closing schools, canceling sports events and banning mingling of households.

The country had raced to vaccinate its population of just under 100,000 — first with a donation of doses from China’s Sinopharm and then with a gift of Covishield, so it could reopen to the tourists who are the lifeblood of its economy.

Daniel Lucey, clinical professor of medicine at Dartmouth Geisel School of Medicine, said in a blog last week that data on genetic sequencing are not yet available for infections in Seychelles in April.

Still, the B.1.351 variant, first identified in South Africa late last year, was found in the Seychelles in February, he said. AstraZeneca’s vaccine appeared to be less effective against that variant in a study, and South Africa halted plans to use those injections.

A comparison between Sinopharm, Covishield and unvaccinated people who caught the coronavirus could be done using genetic sequencing and data on the severity of their infections, Lucey said.

Cases in the Maldives, which has seen a surge in visits from affluent Indians, have also shot up. The country has the most new cases per 100,000 people in the past five, seven and 14 days. Active cases jumped from 4,978 to 9,423 on May 9.

 

[Dennis Tate]

The detail would seem to be rather important that although cases of COVID 19 in the Maldives and Seychelles are rather high..... even after so many people were vaccinated....... nobody has died!


https://www.staradvertiser.com/2021...inated-nation-seychelles-sees-covid-19-surge/
World’s most-vaccinated nation Seychelles sees COVID-19 surge

In Seychelles, Sinopharm shots were issued to 57% of those who were fully inoculated and the rest with Covishield, a vaccine made in India under a license from AstraZeneca Plc. As of May 8 no one who had contracted Covid while being vaccinated had died, Seychelles News Agency reported, citing the minister for foreign affairs and tourism.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Addressing the original post:

.... we are not entirely thrilled with vaccines that do alter our RNA.

That sentence makes absolutely no sense. The vaccines do not alter your RNA. They do not alter your DNA, either. Messenger RNA (mRNA) is a transient copy of a DNA gene. mRNA is inherently unstable and is rapidly degraded by cells. The mRNA in the vaccines contains instructions for the production of the SARS-CoV-2 spike (S) protein. Your cells use the vaccine mRNA to produce the S protein; the appearance of a viral protein in your body stimulates your immune response. Your cells then naturally degrade the vaccine mRNA. No permanent alterations are left behind.

You would do well to acquaint yourself with what is called the central dogma of biology. There's no end of info on the interwebs.

 

[KUMAR5]

Addressing the original post:



That sentence makes absolutely no sense. The vaccines do not alter your RNA. They do not alter your DNA, either. Messenger RNA (mRNA) is a transient copy of a DNA gene. mRNA is inherently unstable and is rapidly degraded by cells. T]

Addressing the original post:



That sentence makes absolutely no sense. The vaccines do not alter your RNA. They do not alter your DNA, either. Messenger RNA (mRNA) is a transient copy of a DNA gene. mRNA is inherently unstable and is rapidly degraded by cells. The mRNA in the vaccines contains instructions for the production of the SARS-CoV-2 spike (S) protein. Your cells use the vaccine mRNA to produce the S protein; the appearance of a viral protein in your body stimulates your immune response. Your cells then naturally degrade the vaccine mRNA. No permanent alterations are left behind.

You would do well to acquaint yourself with what is called the central dogma of biology. There's no end of info on the interwebs.

Which cells do all this? I.e. production of spike protein and degrsdation of mRNA?
Does it not need interlization of mRNA into cells to do all this? If yes, how such interlization can happen?

 

[KUMAR5]

How mRNA vaccine work
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/how-do-mrna-vaccines-work#Addressing-stability-and-safety
It needs mRNA to go into the cells and spike protein, they develop, need to come out of those cells to initiate immune response sgainst it.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Which cells do all this? I.e. production of spike protein and degrsdation of mRNA?
Does it not need interlization of mRNA into cells to do all this? If yes, how such interlization can happen?

They are good questions! I haven’t had the time to find precise answers.

The mRNA vaccines use a nanoparticle (lipid) encapsulation. This is to stimulate endocytosis of the mRNA, I presume. The process of endocytosis will bring the mRNA into endosomes inside the cell, then into the cytosol. Whether all cell types that encounter the mRNA-containing nanolipid particles take in the particles via endocytosis, I don’t know. This would be mostly muscle cells for an upper arm intramuscular injection.

It appears from a quick glance of the literature that the primary cellular targets of the vaccine are dendritic cells and macrophages. These are the primary ‘antigen presenting cells’ of the immune system. They are the cells that travel around the body, collect protein fragments from invading pathogens and tell the immune system “Hey, this is what we need to kill if we ever see it again”.

I don’t know whether the vaccine relies on dendritic cells and macrophages that happen to be in the upper arm tissue at that time, or whether the immunization process stimulates/attracts dendritic cell and macrophage migration to the injection site. It’s probably a bit of both. (I was never very good at immunology.)

https://www.nature.com/articles/nrd.2017.243
https://www.phgfoundation.org/briefing/rna-vaccines
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3597572/

 

[KUMAR5]

They are good questions! I haven’t had the time to find precise answers.

The mRNA vaccines use a nanoparticle (lipid) encapsulation. This is to stimulate endocytosis of the mRNA, I presume. The process of endocytosis will bring the mRNA into endosomes inside the cell, then into the cytosol. Whether all cell types that encounter the mRNA-containing nanolipid particles take in the particles via endocytosis, I don’t know. This would be mostly muscle cells for an upper arm intramuscular injection.

It appears from a quick glance of the literature that the primary cellular targets of the vaccine are dendritic cells and macrophages. These are the primary ‘antigen presenting cells’ of the immune system. They are the cells that travel around the body, collect protein fragments from invading pathogens and tell the immune system “Hey, this is what we need to kill if we ever see it again”.

I don’t know whether the vaccine relies on dendritic cells and macrophages that happen to be in the upper arm tissue at that time, or whether the immunization process stimulates/attracts dendritic cell and macrophage migration to the injection site. It’s probably a bit of both. (I was never very good at immunology.)

https://www.nature.com/articles/nrd.2017.243
https://www.phgfoundation.org/briefing/rna-vaccines
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3597572/

Thanks. It has given me awnsers to my questions. As claimed, let us hope it do not disturb our DNA in any manner. However btw, will the following tyoe of vaccine not still be better than other types:-
"
Subunit vaccine

Description
A subunit vaccine is a vaccine that presents one or more antigens to the immune system without introducing pathogen particles, whole or otherwise. The word "subunit" simply means the antigen is a fragment of the pathogen, and the antigens involved can be any molecule, such as proteins, peptides or polysaccharides.Wikipedia "

 

[Dennis Tate]

Addressing the original post:



That sentence makes absolutely no sense. The vaccines do not alter your RNA. They do not alter your DNA, either. Messenger RNA (mRNA) is a transient copy of a DNA gene. mRNA is inherently unstable and is rapidly degraded by cells. The mRNA in the vaccines contains instructions for the production of the SARS-CoV-2 spike (S) protein. Your cells use the vaccine mRNA to produce the S protein; the appearance of a viral protein in your body stimulates your immune response. Your cells then naturally degrade the vaccine mRNA. No permanent alterations are left behind.

You would do well to acquaint yourself with what is called the central dogma of biology. There's no end of info on the interwebs.

I suppose that the altering of RNA would be different from stimulating RNA to accomplish an objective... is that what you mean by this?

"No permanent alterations are left behind."

Thank you for that interesting and potentially highly relevant detail!

 

[billvon]

I suppose that the altering of RNA would be different from stimulating RNA to accomplish an objective... is that what you mean by this?

THERE IS NO ALTERING OF RNA. THERE IS INSERTION OF NEW mRNA.

 

[billvon]

Which cells do all this? I.e. production of spike protein and degrsdation of mRNA?

The cells near the injection site, usually muscle cells.

Does it not need interlization of mRNA into cells to do all this? If yes, how such interlization can happen?

Yes, it does. The mRNA vaccine is contained in lipid nanoparticles. These bilayer "capsules" easily bind to sites on cells called endosomes, and "get inside" that way. The process is called receptor-mediated endocytosis.

 

[KUMAR5]

The cells near the injection site, usually muscle cells.

Is it just limited to muscle cells near the injection site or also travel to other parts of body?

Yes, it does. The mRNA vaccine is contained in lipid nanoparticles. These bilayer "capsules" easily bind to sites on cells called endosomes, and "get inside" that way. The process is called receptor-mediated endocytosis.

If mRNA do not go inside the same cells as Covid virus go into, how can we claim spike protien produced by them will be same to covid virus protein? How then we can claim immune response, immunological memory and antibody production will also be same and specific to Covid vitus as happen on natural infection?

 

[billvon]

Is it just limited to muscle cells near the injection site or also travel to other parts of body?

IM injections remain primarily in the muscle (hence the name.)

If mRNA do not go inside the same cells as Covid virus go into, how can we claim spike protien produced by them will be same to covid virus protein?

Because the vaccine is designed to create the same COVID spike protein.

How then we can claim immune response, immunological memory and antibody production will also be same and specific to Covid vitus as happen on natural infection?

Because the vaccine is designed to create the same COVID spike protein. Both are presented via cellular MHC's. The immune system cannot tell an infection from an mRNA vaccine for that protein.

 

[KUMAR5]

IM injections remain primarily in the muscle (hence the name.)

We take many other injections whose content do soresd in whole body eg Insulin injections. Then how vaccine material remain limited to injection site,?

Because the vaccine is designed to create the same COVID spike protein.

Because the vaccine is designed to create the same COVID spike protein. Both are presented via cellular MHC's. The immune system cannot tell an infection from an mRNA vaccine for that protein.

Okay but what is need for going into so long and invasive process? Can't spike protein be produced in lab aand then injected directky?
One type of vaccine is named as Sub unit vaccine, where they may use such part directly.

 

[billvon]

We take many other injections whose content do soresd in whole body eg Insulin injections.

Insulin is usually injected subcutaneously rather than IM. Sub Q injections spread under the skin and diffuse into the blood supply of the skin.

Then how vaccine material remain limited to injection site,?

Because of diffusion. The highest concentration of a material is at the injection site. It is rapidly absorbed by tissue due to the mechanism listed above.

Since intracellular spaces are drained by the lymphatic system, some ends up in lymph and spreads around that way. It is a very small amount.

Okay but what is need for going into so long and invasive process? Can't spike protein be produced in lab aand then injected directky?

That would not provoke as robust an immune response, since the free floating spike proteins would not be presented by the MHC's and recognized by T and B cells.

However, similar vaccines have been used in the past. The most common method is to take a live virus, kill (denature) it and inject the "debris." The immune system (usually) recognizes it as a foreign invader and attacks it.

One type of vaccine is named as Sub unit vaccine, where they may use such part directly.

The subunit they are referring to is likely the spike protein.

 

[KUMAR5]

Insulin is usually injected subcutaneously rather than IM. Sub Q injections spread under the skin and diffuse into the blood supply of the skin.

Because of diffusion. The highest concentration of a material is at the injection site. It is rapidly absorbed by tissue due to the mechanism listed above.

Since intracellular spaces are drained by the lymphatic system, some ends up in lymph and spreads around that way. It is a very small amount.

I think blood supply is also there in IM. How then, vaccine is not diffused into IM blood supply? Is it a bigger molecule which can not oass into blood?
However, on natural infection spread area should be much more than injection site area. If it remain limited to injected site area, how can we claim immune response and immune protection from vaccine will be much more than natural infection?

That would not provoke as robust an immune response, since the free floating spike proteins would not be presented by the MHC's and recognized by T and B cells.

However, similar vaccines have been used in the past. The most common method is to take a live virus, kill (denature) it and inject the "debris." The immune system (usually) recognizes it as a foreign invader and attacks it.

The subunit they are referring to is likely the spike protein.

Okay thanks.

 

[billvon]

I think blood supply is also there in IM.

Of course it is.

How then, vaccine is not diffused into IM blood supply?

Because 1) capillaries are not that big and 2) in general the vaccine isn't introduced into a capillary. So again, diffusion means it is most present to the muscle cells in the area. Some does leak into lymph and wind up in the blood.

However, on natural infection spread area should be much more than injection site area. If it remain limited to injected site area, how can we claim immune response and immune protection from vaccine will be much more than natural infection?

No one claims that. The immune reaction to the vaccination is not "much more" than the reaction to a natural infection. It merely generates immunologic memory so the reaction to a (later) natural infection is more rapid.

 

[KUMAR5]

Of course it is.

Because 1) capillaries are not that big and 2) in general the vaccine isn't introduced into a capillary. So again, diffusion means it is most present to the muscle cells in the area. Some does leak into lymph and wind up in the blood.

Look at this quote from Wikipedia
"

UsesEdit
Intramuscular injection is commonly used for medication administration. Medication administered in the muscle is generally quickly absorbed in the bloodstream, and avoids the first pass metabolism which occurs with oral administration.[2] The medication may not be considered 100% bioavailable as it must still be absorbed from the muscle, which occurs over time.Intramuscular injection may be preferred because muscles have larger and more numerous blood vessels than subcutaneous tissue, leading to faster absorption than subcutaneous or intradermal injections.
"
Sorry it suggest something different.

No one claims that. The immune reaction to the vaccination is not "much more" than the reaction to a natural infection. It merely generates immunologic memory so the reaction to a (later) natural infection is more rapid.

There were some indications that vaccination orovide more and prolonged protection than natural infection. Is it not true?

 

[billvon]

There were some indications that vaccination orovide more and prolonged protection than natural infection. Is it not true?

We don't have enough data yet to know for sure, but it looks like the vaccine does indeed provide better protection than the infection itself. One reason may be that immunologic memory may be developed for an antigen that is not present in all the different strains - so the natural immunity may "miss" a more common marker like the spike protein.

 

[KUMAR5]

We don't have enough data yet to know for sure, but it looks like the vaccine does indeed provide better protection than the infection itself. One reason may be that immunologic memory may be developed for an antigen that is not present in all the different strains - so the natural immunity may "miss" a more common marker like the spike protein.

Yes look like so as also indicated here:-

"“Ab levels induced by the vaccine are much higher than levels induced by natural exposure and infection,” Felgner said. “The vaccine also induces cross reactive Abs against other novel CoV strains that are not induced by natural exposure and infection.
https://www.contagionlive.com/view/...accines-is-more-robust-than-natural-infection "