What is enlightenment?

Swarm: You are getting caught up in the words
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Well no actually, I am not. What I was saying is that anything that hangs us up is words, it is mind and mind is ego. What I am, what you are is not the mind.

So you say that I must look for it in the doing - what then, am I the body now? Only joking! Who exactly is doing but this image you have of yourself in the mind?

Say what you like, but to me the words speak more clearly in my writing than in yours - I can not make experiential sense of what you are saying. At least what I write rings true for those who care to look and see for themselves (to find there is no self).
 
vkothii: there is no "good" or "bad" experience - just existence.

Shakespeare said, and the dude had to be enlightened - 'Nothing is either good nor bad, but thinking makes it so.'

This enlightened dude that you talked about who is rejoicing in his suffering and deepening his insights is off the mark. Your point that he will see the place of the individual in that misses it too - in the way you mean it anyway.

That last point is correct but it is to find that there is no purpose. That there is no individual. Purpose is a story we tell about ourselves to ourselves in this story that we see unfolding before us. We are all already enlightened - just the illusion is playing for now on this exploration of enlightenment - all manner of experiences play on it, while ever you are the experiencing. There is no personal in enlightenment - that's why it is so free - free of will - just the pleasure of seeing it all unfolding knowing that it is no-thing. So yes,
Swarm
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, words don't cut it.

Suffering is only the story we tell about the now. As Bob Adamson says 'What is wrong with right now unless you think about it?' 'Nothing is either good nor bad but thinking makes it so.' Now that does not mean you have to stop thinking - no - it's just about seeing that it's not even you who is doing the thinking. You are the wind that blows the flag - the life energy that is experiencing - what ever that experiencing is - even if it is writing a post about this enlightened guy who suffers. Dong!

There is a welcoming, not a suffering - there is the 'peace that passeth all understanding'. And you can taste that by dropping thoughts, by seeing just how much can happen without thought of mind. Now that's experiential
Swarm
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, if you are reading.
 
vkothii: there is no "good" or "bad" experience - just existence.

Shakespeare said, and the dude had to be enlightened - 'Nothing is either good nor bad, but thinking makes it so.'

This enlightened dude that you talked about who is rejoicing in his suffering and deepening his insights is off the mark. Your point that he will see the place of the individual in that misses it too - in the way you mean it anyway.

That last point is correct but it is to find that there is no purpose. That there is no individual. Purpose is a story we tell about ourselves to ourselves in this story that we see unfolding before us. We are all already enlightened - just the illusion is playing for now on this exploration of enlightenment - all manner of experiences play on it, while ever you are the experiencing. There is no personal in enlightenment - that's why it is so free - free of will - just the pleasure of seeing it all unfolding knowing that it is no-thing. So yes,
Swarm
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, words don't cut it.

Suffering is only the story we tell about the now. As Bob Adamson says 'What is wrong with right now unless you think about it?' 'Nothing is either good nor bad but thinking makes it so.' Now that does not mean you have to stop thinking - no - it's just about seeing that it's not even you who is doing the thinking. You are the wind that blows the flag - the life energy that is experiencing - what ever that experiencing is - even if it is writing a post about this enlightened guy who suffers. Dong!

There is a welcoming, not a suffering - there is the 'peace that passeth all understanding'. And you can taste that by dropping thoughts, by seeing just how much can happen without thought of mind. Now that's experiential
Swarm
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, if you are reading.
 
vkothii: there is no "good" or "bad" experience - just existence.

Shakespeare said, and the dude had to be enlightened - 'Nothing is either good nor bad, but thinking makes it so.'

This enlightened dude that you talked about who is rejoicing in his suffering and deepening his insights is off the mark. Your point that he will see the place of the individual in that misses it too - in the way you mean it anyway.

That last point is correct but it is to find that there is no purpose. That there is no individual. Purpose is a story we tell about ourselves to ourselves in this story that we see unfolding before us. We are all already enlightened - just the illusion is playing for now on this exploration of enlightenment - all manner of experiences play on it, while ever you are the experiencing. There is no personal in enlightenment - that's why it is so free - free of will - just the pleasure of seeing it all unfolding knowing that it is no-thing. So yes,
Swarm
Click to expand...
, words don't cut it.

Suffering is only the story we tell about the now. As Bob Adamson says 'What is wrong with right now unless you think about it?' 'Nothing is either good nor bad but thinking makes it so.' Now that does not mean you have to stop thinking - no - it's just about seeing that it's not even you who is doing the thinking. You are the wind that blows the flag - the life energy that is experiencing - what ever that experiencing is - even if it is writing a post about this enlightened guy who suffers. Dong!

There is a welcoming, not a suffering - there is the 'peace that passeth all understanding'. And you can taste that by dropping thoughts, by seeing just how much can happen without thought of mind. Now that's experiential
Swarm
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, if you are reading.
 
onemoment
What I was saying is that anything that hangs us up is words, it is mind and mind is ego. What I am, what you are is not the mind.
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What I'm saying is that words, mind, ego, is the symptom not the cause. As you say, you are not mind. So if you get hung up, it can't be what you are not. It has to be something you are doing/not doing.

Who exactly is doing but this image you have of yourself in the mind?
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How can an image be doing? Get doing. Pay attention an focus. Find out whence the doing comes.

the words speak more clearly in my writing than in yours
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I'm glad.

I can not make experiential sense of what you are saying.
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We are still just talking about it.

to find there is no self
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That's great. Now that you have found this, what next? Practice.

And you can taste that by dropping thoughts, by seeing just how much can happen without thought of mind. Now that's experiential
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Great, sounds like a good practice. But you have to actually do it is what I'm saying.
 
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Swarm: How can an image be doing?
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That's exactly my point Swarm. An image cannot be doing. The image is the thoughts we have in our minds about what we think we are. The 'me' is made up solely of thoughts. We are identified with our thoughts rather than with this ever changing awareness that must always and ever be there for any thoughts to arise. Can you ever say 'I am not aware'? No, that awareness must be there for that to be said.

When we come to see that what we are is the awareness, then we see that thoughts and actions arise by themselves.

Swarm: Great, sounds like a good practice. But you have to actually do it is what I'm saying.
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Actually, it is not a practice to pause thoughts for a moment to realize that the knowing of everything is there prior to any thoughts - just as it is for sports people or muscians who are in the moment and not lost in thoughts or identified with thoughts, and able to perform so well.

You only need to see once that the knowingness is always and ever there. Once you see this, what need is there for you to see it again.

More pointing to this knowingness: do you have to think 'I am thinking' to know that you are thinking? No. So what is it that knows all this? No practice is needed - it is about re-cognizing what is always and ever there - unchanging and whole, one without a second. But, as long as we remain identified with our thoughts we will suffer and seek.
 
onemoment said:
Shakespeare said, and the dude had to be enlightened - 'Nothing is either good nor bad, but thinking makes it so.'
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I believe Shakespeare had Hamlet say this, and Shakespeare was hardly putting Hamlet forward as a solution. This was a character torn between his feelings and an ideal of transcendance, and he failed to reconcile them well as the events make pretty clear. The whole play has him wandering around the edges of his life, debating whether to step in or not. Then when he does, it is mayhem and even cruelty toward innocents, such as Ophelia.

He also tended to speak to himself, even though he used others to do this, speaking through them - they rarely understood what he 'really' meant anyway.

It is one thing to say Nothing is either good nor bad, but thinking makes it so to yourself in certain specific situations. It is a whole other thing to say it to another person or hang it in the air as a universal truth.

Then it has he liklihood of causing pain by adding a layer of self-judgment, if the other person buys it in
their
thinky
thinky
wordy
minds.

And even saying it to yourself during or after certain experiences can be and probably will be abuse.
 
Simon, the quote is just saying that is it the judgements we make about things that makes them good or bad. Everyone will bring their conditioning into the equation when making this judgement - and there can never be univeral agreement ultimately in thought.

There is, however, a truth beyond thought if you dare to look and see!
 
onemoment said:
Simon, the quote is just saying that is it the judgements we make about things that makes them good or bad. Everyone will bring their conditioning into the equation when making this judgement - and there can never be univeral agreement ultimately in thought.

There is, however, a truth beyond thought if you dare to look and see!
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I think it was implicit in my post that I believe this last thing you say, note the ending.

I think telling people, in most contexts, that their judgments are making their experience of something or that something seem bad, is generally cruel. I see it said, often, by people who really do not understand either the specific human they are talking to or how the mind relates to the rest of that person.
 
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An image cannot be doing.
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Cool we seem to have momentary agreement.

Can you ever say 'I am not aware'? No, that awareness must be there for that to be said.
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Ah, but that doesn’t mean the awareness has to be there. It just means that it must be there in order to be aware of it. You have changed thoughts for awareness but I don’t think you are home free yet. I would say that awareness is more fundamental, but there have been times when I was oblivious and later became aware again, yet the continuity of being continued through the lack of awareness. Also, awareness is passive. It takes in but does not act. From whence is your activity coming?

When we come to see that what we are is the awareness, then we see that thoughts and actions arise by themselves.
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Nothing ever arises just by itself.

Actually, it is not a practice to pause thoughts for a moment to realize that the knowing of everything is there prior to any thoughts
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True, most can manage a moment so that is a good place to begin the practice if that is what you wish to practice. That moment can be longer you know, with practice. You could end up thinking “gee I haven’t thought anything in a while. ;)

You only need to see once that the knowingness is always and ever there. Once you see this, what need is there for you to see it again.
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I only need to have breathed once to have lived and yet I find ways to enjoy further breaths anyway.

So what is it that knows all this?
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Good question. Who is thinking? Who is aware? Who acts? Who is re-cognizing? Who remains identified? Who suffers? Who seeks? Who knows?

If you say no one, why all this bother then?

No practice is needed
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Needing to practice is a good time to practice, but the practice is not because it is needed.
 
Swarm: That moment can be longer you know, with practice.

In that moment you might come to realize that ineffable presence, see what has always and ever been there whether you practice or don't practice. What will be will be - it is all the one just the same.

You do not need to see it again because you know that it is always and ever there - it keeps breathing and enjoying.

Swarm: Who knows?

If you say no one, why all this bother then?
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Who bothers? Chop wood, carry water. Smell a rose. What knows all this is not a 'Who'. It is no-thing. But even that name leaves the mind imagining. Language can do that. But still, it is only itself.

Swarm: Needing to practice is a good time to practice, but the practice is not because it is needed.
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I wholeheartedly agree. Practice happens or it doesn't happen - chop wood, carry water. This is beyond practice and non-practice, because I can see. So each to his own.
 
I guess I'm not sure exactly what enlightenment is, but I always considered to be the attainment of metalogical thought. The ability to understand paradoxes and metalogical ideas such as infinity.
 
Maybe more like realising you already knew what a paradox was, what infinity and, enlightenment are too.
 
Enlightenment is recognizing the truth. Therefore it's different for everybody. I think there's a lot of false enlightenment going on:D
 
Enlightenment is realizing that plate tectonics, constant size Earth, heat engine Earth, elastic rebound, and the biogenic origin of hydrocarbons are myths.

See here.
 
Since I did not see the word "Nirvana" aside from the original post, I'll just say what it is.

According to Buddhism, there are 4 noble truths;
1. suffering exists in the form of dukkha
2. Dukkha comes from desire
3. It is possible to stop all desire and all suffering
4. the noble (they like that word) 8 fold path can stop desire

Nirvana in buddhism is when all desire in you stops, but that's not all.

-You are made from a clump of matter and the energy that animates it
-When you die, everything is wiped out, but the energy is reborn
-The energy is reborn becuase it wants to becuase it desires to live

Nirvana is also when your energy realizes that there is nothing in this world to live for, so it decides to not get reborn after death before it dies.

Enlightment is when you truly realize in the inside that there is nothing on this world to desire, since everything is eventually going to not exist.

And please remember, this is the EASTERN philosophy section.
 
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