What constitutes privilege?

Tiassa said:
Careful, you might be accused of serious mental health problems↑ for scrutinizing this argument against privilege.
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Wow. I thought you were feeling better. That's a shame, I was really getting something from many of your informative and insightful posts. But no, when you make a disgusting and completely false accusation that I would support stereotypes of "uppity black people," what else can I think but that you manifest some recurring mental health issue. And apparently haven't read most of my posts on the topic of racism or privilege.

Doubly sad is that I've recently replied to, and thanked you, for your longer format posts on divers subjects when literally no other member responded to them. E.g. your post on the fellow citing Sartre recently, and I replied to you about the positive value I had found many years ago as a student in his writings on bad faith and the creation of a false self. It is painful to me to engage with an intelligent and literate person, and then have them suddenly dig up some months old grudge and fire it up again especially when our views on the thread topic seem congruent. Such backstabbing doesn't serve you well.

Anyway, I was going to post today a piece from Axios on how lynchings of black men are still happening, and being dismissed as suicides, but this alerting of WoW to an inconvenient reality for him probably won't fit well with your weird demonizing view of me vis-a-vis racial issues.

 
billvon said:
There sure are. But if are underprivileged white people in the same place they are still at an advantage compared to the black people in the same place.

Being white does not guarantee success. Being black does not guarantee failure. But being born white means you are playing the virtual reality game known as "life" on the easy setting.
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Don't know if WoW read your link to John Scalzi back on page 4, but it wouldn't hurt him if he hasn't. Scalzi makes it clearer than almost anyone - being a very popular author and blogger has probably honed his skill at reaching a lot of people. Anywho, here tis, again:


Wizard of Whatever
 
Sarkus said:
Just to be clear, there are some DEI programs that do give minorities something like "preferential treatment"
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Specifically, affirmative action. I don't see those two things as equivalent, though. Affirmative action is what you describe - a legislated advantage to bring minorities into schools/jobs/clubs etc once exclusively held by whites. DEI is specifically diversity, equity and inclusion. Further broken down:

Diversity - a diverse workforce, made up of people capable of doing the job, is better than a homogeneous workforce made up of people who all look a certain way. Example - a job fair at a majority-woman college.

Equity - a policy of addressing inequalities so that everyone is able to participate. Examples are handicapped parking spots and rooms for nursing/pumping.

Inclusion - visible efforts to make clear everyone is included in decisions/work/outcomes. A very simple example is soliciting input from people who are participating in a project but tend not to speak much at meetings.
 
TheVat said:
Such backstabbing doesn't serve you well.
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Cry some more. Let's talk about privilege. You are, after all, someone who once started a topic↗ in part because of worries about how discussions are shut down, but then in this thread you publicly begged↑ for someone to save you and shut down a discussion.

The glaring contrast doesn't serve you well.

Furthermore, pretend all you want that our views on the topic are congruent, but compared to your complaint and fallacious accusation↑ about the difference, your bawling is some weak tea.

Now, here's the tricky part: Sarkus handled the same issue that upset people earlier. For prior discourse, see #99↑, "I just find it striking how easy it is, in these discussions, for people to agree on what's wrong with black people"; #122↑, "Like I said, it's just so damn easy, in discussions of race and privilege, for people to agree on what's wrong with black people"; #198↑, "Maybe he's not supposed to be taken seriously, but on this occasion, sure, people took him seriously enough to diagnose what's wrong with black people".

This time later, the so-called Wizard of Whatever↑ was pretty clear about "blacks, browns, yellows, reds, and mixed", declaring, "If anyone has privilege these days it's them." By calling out the claim↑, Sarkus takes a discursive position similar to what so offended people several months ago, and even you wanted the entire thread shut down↑ .

In this way, my advice to Sarkus seems relevant, but in this question of privilege you are focused on what is most important to you.
 
billvon said:
Specifically, affirmative action. I don't see those two things as equivalent, though. ...
... DEI is specifically diversity, equity and inclusion.
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:rolleyes:
I never said they were equivalent. I said that there are "some DEI programs". I.e. a subset, or a programme within the umbrella of.
Affirmative action is, within the umbrella of DEI, a temporary programme to correct the profile, and do it quicker than mere equity from that point on will achieve.
But, sure, any excuse to... whatever it is you're doing. ;)
 
  • #History: "Other DEI policies include Affirmative Action."

    Britannica: "Diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) programs-meant to address historical and systemic disparities based on race, gender, age, ability, and sexual orientation in the workplace-became a controversial cornerstone for both the government and private sector in the 21st century. The practice, once known as affirmative action, has its roots throughout U.S. history and pivotally in the mistreatment of a Black World War II veteran and how Pres. Harry S. Truman responded to it."
So when treated as a broader category that is retrofitted to apply to the past, DEI subsumes affirmative action (positive dicrimination). When treated as a new term for a modified, expanded, or refined endeavor, it "replaces" affirmative action.

Such alternate jargon can be introduced when an old version either acquires a negative slash caricature image or has been pejoratively appropriated by the opposition. Not unlike most communist organizations in the 1980s renaming themselves to classifications like "Social Democrat", "Democratic Socialist", and whatever else creates distance from a suggestion of "dictatorship of the proletariat" (actually fiefdom of the intelligentsia claiming to represent the proles).
_
 
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Tiassa said:
This time later, the so-called Wizard of Whatever↑ was pretty clear about "blacks, browns, yellows, reds, and mixed", declaring, "If anyone has privilege these days it's them." By calling out the claim↑, Sarkus takes a discursive position similar to what so offended people several months ago, and even you wanted the entire thread shut down↑ .
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Wow, you really miss a lot. I agree with Sarkus calling out WoW's white grievance claims, and have done so myself. I had no problem with what he said, and have never called for shutting down a thread because of something he said. Instead of snarky little blue arrows where you "quote" me and describe your impression, let's look at what I actually said:

Agreed. And I think things are getting more focused. It's generally an interesting topic and one we can all potentially learn more on. That said, fair warning, the next person who snidely insinuates that they know my ideological views better than I do and that I'm giving quarter to white supremacists will receive an unsparing assessment of their personal agenda, intellectual dishonesty and profound level of ignorance. If that's seen as out of hand, then I would ask moderation to enforce No Ad Hominems, so that distraction is removed.
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So, in plain English:

I think we're all learning from this thread, I'm not calling to shut it down, and I am only saying that I will respond firmly to someone slandering and misquoting me. Then I ask moderator to do their job, which is to enforce forum rules against personal attacks, rules which I myself accept.

Tiassa, why are you keeping this stupid fight going? All you need to do is accept that you may be human and sometimes take things the wrong way. Isn't it a waste of your time and obvious intellectual talents to keep pursuing this avenue of gross misunderstanding? Why would someone who actually took some time a couple days ago to engage with you on Sartre be looking for anything but peaceful rapprochement?? I only responded in a less friendly way when you then launched this attack on me, and I wanted to make clear to participants that I am not going to tolerate backstabbing comments and incomplete quotes with insulting spin on them. You can play nice, this is a DISCUSSION FORUM, you're not some sort of prosecuting attorney.
 
Randwolf said:
Wizard of Whatever said:
If whites have privilege, I guess I missed out.
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Of course you would feel that way - fish don't know that they are wet.
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Indeed. It has to be explained to those of us on the privileged side that privilege is usually invisible to the privileged.

The privilege is not in what you got, it is in what hurdles were not put in front of you.

For every job you got hired at, and for every job you got passed over for, there was a coloured person who did not get hired, simply because they were coloured. Statistically, they do not come from good neighborhoods with good schools, where opportunities are rife. Their families before them struggled weitht povery, crime, domestic abuse, drug and alocohol abuse, putting them at a further disadvantage.

Naturally, there is no assumption here that you were raised with a silver spoon in your mouth - not by any acccount.
But for all the struggles you may have had, coloured people have a hundred more disadvantages, going back generations, that you simply never see.

Do not take this as an exhaustive list. The list of disadvantages they face that you do not is too large to fit in this forum. It takes learning to unlearn all that you take for granted.
 
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