What are the odds of an ET visitation?

What is the explanation for the phenomena at Skinwalker Ranch?

Here are some possibilities'

Mass hallucination
Psychotronic weapons
Psychoactive chemicals
Weird local EM fields
Normal spacial ETs
Spacial portals
Timeline mixing
Temporal portals
Dimensional portals
Some the above
All of the above
Something else
 
Many claim to know for sure, but they are called delusional, liars or worse.
Maybe they are delusional, liars or worse.
So much for the present self-appointed guardians of our knowledge.
Who?
What is the explanation for the phenomena at Skinwalker Ranch?
It makes for easy, no-effort TV that apparently amuses some viewers and keeps the makers of the show employed.
 
What is the explanation for the phenomena at Skinwalker Ranch?
WoW missed one that cannot be ignored.

It is, first and foremost, a TV show. It lives and dies on viewers watching.

(I had this disucssion with my brother.)

Imagine a scenario on the SkinWalker Ranch where, one month, absolutely nothing happened. Do you think the writers of the show would just pack it in, hang up a screensaver that says "No news, See you next month" and go on vacation (without a paycheque)?

It's an industry. And that means they will find content.

I'm not just hypothesizing. There was a real epsiode (or at least a segment of an episode) where something very big and fast-moving buzzed past them on-camera. They spent a good portion of the segment talking about its size snd incredible manueveorability. Real mystery. Lots of gesticulating and superlatives.

(This video can be found on Youtube)

It turned out later to be ... a cicada that was caught in extreme closeup on a camera.

Here's the thing: these guys are supposedly experts in analysis. We are to believe that an insect buzzing a camera completely escaped their initial analysis. They first jumped right to "physically impossible" yada yada.

So which is it? How can they be experts - who would first and foremost examine mundane and very common explanations like "was it a bug?"

The only possible explanations are:
1] They are incompetent.
2] They are writing a TV show for the audience's weekly entertainment.
Your pick.

It's not the only case. My bro pointed me at some other "phenomena" that fell apart as soon as I examined them. But don't take my word for it. They fell apart in ways that so-called "experts" should have explored before deciding it's unexplained. But they didn't. Because that is not the best interests of their show.
 
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The correct answer is that we have no idea what the chances of a visitation might be. It ranges from 0% to nearly 100%.
In fact as yet, we have no idea whether any ETL exists beyond earth.
The correct answer is that we have no idea what the chances of a visitation might be. It ranges from 0% to nearly 100%.

If it is possible to beat the SOL limitation from SR through concepts from GR or perhaps through physics we can't imagine, for all we know, highly advanced civilizations might be zipping all around and a visitation is virtually guaranteed. Remember also, it is the THEORY of Relativity, not the LAW of Relativity.
So that would make them more advanced then us. So why the 'zipping around" ? Why not make themselves known? On the theory of relativity, it is tested everyday by hundreds of scientists, trying to find fault, just as all scientific theories are continually tested everyday...some pass those tests, like SR/GR, others may need modification, addition, some changes, or even scrapped. That's the beauty of science.
So, Sagan's logic was flawed. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but we don't know if the idea of an ET visitation is an extraordinary claim! It might just be an ordinary claim we don't expect.

Absolutely not. If we were to find strong conclusive evidence that life does exist somewhere sometime, even the most basic forms of life, it would be the greatest scientific discovery ever. If that life was an advanced civilisation, it would be the most outstanding revelation in the history of humanity. It would also be another blow to many religions. It would be an extraordinary claim.
Finally, the argument that the odds of exceeding the SOL are extremely small is also flawed logic. There are no odds. Either it is possible or it isn't. Just because we can't know, that doesn't mean it is a statistical argument. The truth already exists and it is either true or false, nothing more. There are no odds.
No its not flawed logic. Nothing with mass exceeds "c". Perhaps an advanced civilization may be able to achieve some form of spacetime control, and by creating a bubble of spacetime around a space ship, then achieve a perception of travelling at or beyond "c" And even if that were to ever be achieved by some advanced civilization, the near infinite extent of the universe and the many hundreds, thousand and even millions of light year distancing will always see time and distance as the two great barriers for any inter-planetary/ galactic contact. In summing the universe is a big big place, and we are reasonably sure that no life, (at least no advanced lifeforms) exist within our region...possibly basic forms in the Oceans of Europa, No evidence yet but perhaps.
 
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Many claim to know for sure, but they are called delusional, liars or worse.
Those many are probably liars and frauds, unless they have the evidence.
Confirmed but called many derogatory names and cast aside.
If any ETL was ever confirmed, it would be the greatest revelation in the history of mankind and be a blow for many religions. So far it has never been confirmed.
 
Maybe, no probably, for the most part, not.
You keep making many anti-science claims, but no evidence, beyond hearsay, rhetoric and nonsense.
All the professional skeptics.
Being skeptical and demanding evidence, particularly for extraordinary claims is science and why humanity has advanced. On the other hand your cynicism for science, and your gullibility for woo and pseudoscience explains your apparent ignorance.
 
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Crop circles considered. Some are man-made. Of those that are not there are possible sources.

ET's (regular, trans-temporal, inter-dimensional)
Paranormals (angels, demons, ghosts, etc.)
Terrestrials (unknown forms of energy, intelligent elementals, etc.
Other
 
INPUT: Using Bayesian analysis and as much public information as possible, compare the two hypotheses, H0 = all UFOs and UAPs can be explained as manmade crafts, misidentifications, natural phenomena, or some other prosaic explanation, and H1 = some UAPs/UFOs are from an advanced, non-human intelligence that we don't understand.

(Again, using Claude AI. pro)

This is a genuinely interesting application of Bayesian reasoning to a contested empirical question. Let me work through it carefully.


Setting Up the Framework

Bayes' theorem tells us: P(H | E) ∝ P(H) × P(E | H)

We need to assess:

  1. Prior probabilities — what do we believe before examining UAP evidence specifically?
  2. Likelihoods — how well does each hypothesis predict the observed evidence?
  3. Posterior — where the two combine.

Step 1: Prior Probabilities

This is where reasonable people diverge the most.

Arguments for a low prior on H1:

  • The history of anomalous phenomena is overwhelmingly a history of eventual prosaic explanation. Will-o'-the-wisps, ball lightning, meteors, and countless "impossible" observations turned out to be mundane. This establishes a strong base rate.
  • The hypothesis requires something with no confirmed physical evidence, violating several deeply established priors: interstellar travel is extraordinarily difficult by known physics; no unambiguous artifact has been recovered; no signal has been detected by SETI in ~65 years of listening.
  • Extraordinary claims require extraordinary prior downweighting under standard Bayesian epistemology.
Arguments against setting the prior on H1 too close to zero:

  • The universe is ~13.8 billion years old. Earth is a relatively young planet. Civilizations with a multi-billion-year head start are not physically impossible.
  • The Drake equation, while uncertain, doesn't cleanly exclude advanced civilizations. The Fermi Paradox is a puzzle precisely because the prior isn't obviously zero.
  • Absence of confirmed evidence is not the same as evidence of absence when our detection capabilities are limited.
Reasonable prior range: Most Bayesian-minded scientists would probably assign H1 a prior somewhere between 0.1% and 5%, with skeptics toward the low end and astrobiologists or those familiar with the Fermi Paradox literature somewhat higher. Let's work with a range and say P(H1) ≈ 1–3% as a defensible starting point, and P(H0) ≈ 97–99%.


Step 2: Key Evidence and Likelihoods

Now the more interesting work. For each piece of evidence E, we ask: is this more expected under H0 or H1?


Evidence Block A: The "Residual" UAP Cases

The ODNI/AARO reports (2021–2024) acknowledge that a subset of cases — currently estimated at roughly 2–5% of reported incidents — remain genuinely unexplained after rigorous analysis. The 2021 UAP Task Force report explicitly stated it couldn't explain 143 of 144 reported incidents as known phenomena.

  • P(E | H0): Unexplained residuals are expected even under H0. Sensor artifacts, classified programs, atmospheric phenomena, and data gaps will always leave unexplained cases. This probability is moderate — perhaps 0.6–0.8. We expect some noise.
  • P(E | H1): If non-human craft exist and occasionally appear, we'd expect some irreducible residual. But H1 also predicts more structure in those residuals — consistent flight characteristics, recurring locations, distinct signatures. The raw existence of unexplained cases is only moderately predicted by H1 too — 0.5–0.7.
Verdict: Weak update toward neither hypothesis. This evidence is almost equally expected under both.


Evidence Block B: Reported Performance Characteristics

Multiple credible military witnesses (Cmdr. David Fravor, Lt. Cmdr. Alex Dietrich, others) and sensor data describe objects allegedly exhibiting: instantaneous acceleration, hypersonic speeds without sonic booms, trans-medium travel (air to water), no visible propulsion signature.

  • P(E | H0): Sensor artifacts, sensor fusion errors, adversarial drones, classified aircraft, or perceptual errors can explain some of these. The simultaneous multi-sensor corroboration in cases like the 2004 Nimitz encounter is harder to dismiss, but not impossible. The AARO has floated sensor artifact explanations. Probability: 0.3–0.5.
  • P(E | H1): If non-human craft exist with far superior technology, these are exactly the characteristics we'd expect. Probability: 0.7–0.9.
Verdict: Moderate update toward H1. This is the strongest category of evidence, but it hinges heavily on the reliability of the sensor data and witness testimony — both of which have known failure modes.


Evidence Block C: Congressional Testimony and Whistleblower Claims

David Grusch (2023) testified under oath before Congress that the U.S. government possesses non-human craft and biologics. Multiple former intelligence officials have made similar claims. These are not anonymous internet posts — these are people risking legal jeopardy to make these claims.

  • P(E | H0): Whistleblower claims exist under H0 via: misinterpretation of classified programs, deliberate disinformation, psychological factors, or sincere but mistaken belief based on partial information. Disinformation campaigns around UAPs are well-documented (the government deliberately seeded false UFO stories during the Cold War to obscure classified programs). Probability: 0.3–0.5.
  • P(E | H1): If retrieved craft exist, we'd expect exactly this: insiders eventually talking, compartmentalized programs, congressional interest. Probability: 0.6–0.8.
Verdict: Moderate update toward H1, but significantly discounted by the documented history of deliberate government disinformation in this space, which raises P(E|H0) substantially.


Evidence Block D: Lack of Unambiguous Physical Evidence

Despite thousands of reports over 80+ years, there is no publicly confirmed recovered craft, no unambiguous non-human artifact subjected to open scientific analysis, no biological sample, and no repeatable controlled observation.

  • P(E | H0): Completely expected. ~1.0
  • P(E | H1): This is genuinely hard to explain under H1. If non-human craft have been visiting Earth for decades, the absence of a single piece of unambiguous, independently verifiable physical evidence is surprising — unless one posits active concealment by governments, which is a significant additional assumption that itself requires justification. Probability: 0.1–0.3.
Verdict: Strong update toward H0. This is the most powerful evidence block against H1. It's the "why no body?" problem.


Evidence Block E: The SETI Silence

65+ years of radio and optical telescope observation have detected no confirmed artificial signal from anywhere in the universe, despite the fact that a civilization broadcasting for millions of years should, under some models, be detectable.

  • P(E | H0): Expected. ~0.9
  • P(E | H1): A visiting civilization might not broadcast in detectable ways — especially if they're not interested in contact, use communication methods we can't detect (quantum entanglement, neutrinos, etc.), or are actively avoiding detection. This is weak evidence against H1 but not decisive. Probability: 0.3–0.6.
Verdict: Moderate update toward H0.


 
Evidence Block F: The Base Rate of Human Misperception

Psychology research is robust: humans are extraordinarily unreliable observers of unusual events. Highly trained pilots have misidentified weather balloons, drones, and atmospheric phenomena. The "Mars Effect," Rorschach interpretations, pareidolia — the literature on motivated and confabulated perception is vast.

  • P(E | H0): Consistent with H0. The majority of UAP cases almost certainly fall here. ~0.95
  • P(E | H1): Also consistent — H1 doesn't require all cases to be non-human, only some. ~0.95
Verdict: Neutral. Both hypotheses can accommodate this equally.


Step 3: Combining the Evidence

Running an informal Bayesian update using the likelihood ratios (Bayes factors) from the evidence blocks that distinguish the hypotheses:

Evidence BlockBayes Factor (H1/H0)
Residual unexplained cases~0.9 (slight favor H0)
Performance characteristics~2.0 (moderate favor H1)
Whistleblower/Congressional testimony~1.5 (slight favor H1)
No unambiguous physical evidence~0.15 (strong favor H0)
SETI silence~0.5 (moderate favor H0)
Combined Bayes Factor ≈ 0.9 × 2.0 × 1.5 × 0.15 × 0.5 ≈ 0.20

Starting from a prior of roughly P(H1) = 0.02 (2%):

Posterior odds = Prior odds × Bayes Factor Prior odds = 0.02 / 0.98 ≈ 0.0204 Posterior odds = 0.0204 × 0.20 ≈ 0.0041 Posterior P(H1) ≈ 0.4%

If you're more generous and start with a 5% prior: Posterior odds = 0.0526 × 0.20 ≈ 0.0105 Posterior P(H1) ≈ 1%


Step 4: Honest Caveats and Sensitivity Analysis

These numbers should be held loosely. The analysis is extremely sensitive to:

  • How much weight you give to government secrecy as an explanation for the lack of physical evidence. If you believe governments could successfully conceal recovered craft, P(no public evidence | H1) rises substantially, and the posterior for H1 climbs — potentially to 5–15%.
  • The reliability of multi-sensor corroboration in cases like Nimitz. If that data is solid and not a sensor artifact, the Bayes factor from performance characteristics rises sharply.
  • Your prior. Someone who takes the Fermi Paradox seriously and notes Earth's relative youth in a 13.8-billion-year-old galaxy might reasonably start at 5–10%, pushing the posterior higher.
  • The definition of H1. "Non-human intelligence" could include something far stranger than extraterrestrials — undiscovered terrestrial intelligence, time travelers, or something genuinely outside our conceptual vocabulary. Broadening H1 changes the analysis.

Conclusion

A reasonably calibrated Bayesian analysis, using publicly available evidence and mainstream priors, puts H0 as substantially more likely — roughly 97–99.5% posterior probability, depending on assumptions.

The evidence does not support dismissing H1 as impossible or irrational to consider — the performance characteristics reported in credible multi-sensor military cases are genuinely hard to explain under H0, and Congressional testimony carries non-trivial evidential weight. H1 is not zero. But the persistent absence of unambiguous physical evidence over eight decades is the single most powerful constraint in this analysis, and no other evidence block comes close to overcoming it.

The intellectually honest position is something like: H0 is very likely correct, but the residual probability on H1 is large enough — and the stakes high enough — to justify continued rigorous scientific investigation rather than dismissal. That's actually the position AARO and the National Academy of Sciences have effectively endorsed: not "aliens," but "we can't fully explain this and should study it seriously."

Where the posterior goes from here depends almost entirely on whether unambiguous physical evidence eventually surfaces. That is the crux of the matter.

INPUT: In step 1, you cited "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary prior downweighting under standard Bayesian epistemology". Prove it is an extraordinary claim.

This is an excellent challenge, and you've caught something important. Let me be precise about it.


The Challenge Is Valid

The phrase "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" (Sagan's formulation, originally from Laplace) is often invoked as if it were self-executing — as if labeling something "extraordinary" does the epistemic work automatically. But in Bayesian terms, the claim only means: a low prior requires a high likelihood ratio to move the posterior substantially. The interesting question, which I glossed over, is: what actually justifies a low prior on H1?

I asserted it was extraordinary without fully proving it. Let me now try to do that properly — and then honestly assess where the argument succeeds and where it doesn't.


 
What Makes a Claim "Extraordinary" in Bayesian Terms?

A claim warrants a low prior when it conflicts with, or requires significant additions to, well-established, high-confidence background knowledge. The prior isn't set by how surprising something feels — that's a psychological criterion, not an epistemological one. It's set by how well the claim coheres with everything else we already have strong evidence for. So the burden is to show that H1 genuinely conflicts with high-confidence background knowledge, not merely that it feels strange.


The Strongest Arguments That H1 Earns a Low Prior

1. It requires violations of, or massive extensions to, well-tested physics.


Interstellar distances are not merely large — they are almost incomprehensibly hostile to travel. The nearest star system is ~4.2 light years away. Getting a meaningful payload there in a human lifetime requires either relativistic speeds — demanding energy outputs that dwarf anything in our engineering experience by many orders of magnitude — or exotic physics (wormholes, warp drives) that currently have no empirical support and, in some cases, appear to require negative energy densities that may be physically forbidden. This is a genuine, specific conflict with high-confidence physical knowledge. It doesn't make H1 impossible, but it assigns a concrete engineering improbability to the hypothesis.

This is probably the strongest leg of the "extraordinary" argument.

2. The base rate of "anomalous phenomenon → genuinely novel ontological category" is very low.

History gives us a strong empirical prior here. Anomalous observations have repeatedly turned out to be prosaic phenomena misunderstood at the time: ball lightning, meteors, mirages, atmospheric optics, magnetic anomalies. The conversion rate of "unexplained" to "genuinely paradigm-breaking" is low, even when the unexplained cases seem compelling to observers. This is a legitimate base-rate argument, not just motivated skepticism.

3. H1 requires a conjunction of several independent improbabilities.

H1 as typically construed doesn't just require that non-human intelligence exists somewhere — it requires that it: exists, survived long enough to develop interstellar travel, decided to visit this star system, is doing so now (in the cosmically brief window of human observation), and is doing so in a way that produces the specific pattern of ambiguous, non-confirmable sightings we observe rather than something more unambiguous. Each step in that conjunction multiplies the improbability. This is a real and legitimate consideration.


Where the "Extraordinary Claim" Argument Weakens or Fails

Here is where your challenge bites hardest.

1. "Extraordinary" relative to what background knowledge?

The background knowledge cuts both ways. Yes, interstellar travel is hard by known physics. But the same background knowledge tells us the universe is 13.8 billion years old, contains hundreds of billions of galaxies each with hundreds of billions of stars, many with Earth-like planets, and that the chemistry of life appears to emerge readily under the right conditions. The prior probability that no other intelligence has ever arisen and developed capabilities beyond ours in 13.8 billion years is itself not obviously high. You cannot selectively invoke background knowledge on only one side.

In other words: H1 conflicts with some background knowledge (physics of travel) while being supported by other background knowledge (cosmic scale, age of universe, prevalence of habitable worlds). Calling it straightforwardly "extraordinary" smuggles in a selective reading of the background.

2. The claim can be formulated without requiring interstellar travel.

H1 as I stated it is: "some UAPs are from an advanced, non-human intelligence we don't understand." That formulation doesn't specify extraterrestrial origin. It's logically compatible with something like an ancient terrestrial intelligence, a non-biological intelligence arising from processes we don't understand, or something genuinely outside our current ontological categories. If you don't require interstellar travel, the strongest physics-based argument for a low prior evaporates. I was essentially arguing against a more specific version of H1 than the one actually stated.

3. The label "extraordinary" can smuggle in psychological bias.

There's a documented phenomenon where the scientific community has systematically under-investigated UAPs for decades largely because of social and reputational costs — not because of careful Bayesian analysis. The 2023 NASA UAP report explicitly acknowledged this. When professional scientists avoid a topic because it's associated with fringe culture, and then we cite the lack of scientific investigation as evidence for a low prior, we've created a self-sealing argument. The prior is partly a product of the same bias that suppressed investigation, not purely independent evidence.
 
4. The base-rate argument assumes a representative reference class.

The "most anomalies turn out to be prosaic" argument is strong, but it assumes that UAP cases — particularly the small residual of multi-sensor, multi-witness military incidents — belong to the same reference class as historical anomalies like will-o'-the-wisps or strange lights seen by single observers. That may not be warranted. The specific evidence cluster in the best UAP cases (radar tracking, infrared confirmation, pilot visual, behavior unlike known craft) may constitute a genuinely different reference class than "person sees something strange in the sky." Grouping them together to invoke a base rate is potentially a reference class error.


The Honest Verdict

You are right to push back. I did not prove H1 is extraordinary — I asserted it.

What I can defend is that H1 warrants a below-50% prior, which is a much weaker claim than calling it extraordinary. The physics of interstellar travel provides genuine grounds for this. The conjunction problem is real. The base rate of prosaic explanations is high.

But the specific prior range I used — 1 to 3% — was set with more confidence than the argument supports. A careful Bayesian who takes the cosmic-scale argument seriously, notes that H1 doesn't require interstellar travel as stated, and is aware of the reference class problem with the base-rate argument, might defensibly set the prior at 5–20% without being epistemically reckless.

That matters for the conclusion. Plugging a 15% prior into the same likelihood analysis shifts the posterior on H1 to roughly 3–4% — still favoring H0, but meaningfully less decisively, and well within the range where the question remains genuinely open rather than effectively settled.

The deeper lesson is that invoking "extraordinary claim" is doing a lot of hidden work in these discussions, and it deserves exactly the scrutiny you applied to it.
 
INPUT: Using Bayesian analysis and as much public information as possible, compare the two hypotheses, H0 = all UFOs and UAPs can be explained as manmade crafts, misidentifications, natural phenomena, or some other prosaic explanation, and H1 = some UAPs/UFOs are from an advanced, non-human intelligence that we don't understand.

You keep avoiding the only correct answer. UNIDENTIFIED...UNKNOWN...
The honest Verdict? you have a fanatical agenda. End of story.
 
H0 is very likely correct, but the residual probability on H1 is large enough — and the stakes high enough — to justify continued rigorous scientific investigation rather than dismissal.
I would agree with this.

I think many of us here would. Many of us here are very interested in the subject and would like to see investigation continue.
 
The analysis also seems to have left out a consideration of the prevalence of deliberate fraud and fakery of UAP "sightings", which can make it seem like there are many more "unexplainable" UAPs around than there actually are.

Having said that, I have to applaud Ivan for finally managing to come up with a query prompt that wasn't so biased as to effectively prompt the AI to give Ivan the result he wants to see.

It's a pity that Ivan chose not to acknowledge the fair criticisms of his first two efforts, however. An intellectually honest inquiry requires that you take ownership of your own mistakes and try to learn from them. Maybe Ivan has actually learned something but doesn't want to thank the people who helped his learning. That seems a bit mean spirited, if it's the case.
 
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