We Are All The Same Person
- Thread starter Empty Dragon
- Start date
Beware or rationalization of experience, you can miss out on the direct experience itself. Then all you end up with is a bunch of words. Words are mearly representation on reality not reality itself. Meaning can be convayed through words but its is not he intellectual understanding that is of intrest it is the direct experience that has the most use. But rationlization is a beautifull thing for the intellect but ot me its not worth the trade.
Wisdom and understanding come with out effort.
LOL Oh that was a good one
LOL
Now seriously how can wisdom be restricted to going to the woods or to a Bodhi tree. Sure such things may facilitate an enviroment to attain specific wisdom but they are not the (Still LOL) sole way to attain it. Mabye even during this conversation you have learn something. Did it require a tree? Sure such thing may have lessons to learn but they are not the lessons themselfs. Map for the terrain. Some times you just get it. Hence it came with out effort.
I wasnt saying that you needed any particular thing to get to a state of grace or realization, its just that from what ive seen and read and know, its takes some effort and isnt easy. My own spiritual efforts are, at this point in my lfe, languishing, due, I think, to laziness and depression. The ego is a tenacious, stealthy bastard
Christ and the buddha underwent various temptations and ordeals, the same kinds of temptations and ordeals that students of every spiritual stripe and denomination are being exposed to now. For most it isnt easy, you hang on to what you know (your everyday life and conciousness) for dear life. If it were easy we'd all be buddhas and christs.
As far as needing a particular place or thing to get it, heres a qoute from dogen:
Truth is not far away, it is ever present. It is not something to be attained since not one of your steps leads away from it.
I would not say for a second that at the begining the path is easy. To start it will be one of the hardest things anyone will ever do. There has been many a time where I wanted to quit. I wanted to be normal. I wanted to be like the rest of them. I remanied true to myself. That is the natural state of me so It really doesn't require any effort to be me. To be soemthing i am not would only cause more pain and suffering in the end. If your rationalize with out being you can get pretty depressed. You can sit on a stone and endulge in thought or you can continue the journey. There are times for both. But once I realized this conforming was no longer a temptation.
What buddha and Christ learned from these temptations that in the end the temptation wasn't important. They learned to look beyond. (I do not pretend to be at the level of Christ or Buddha, Thsi is only my interpretation)
Easy is only a matter of perseption, once you realize it is only a peception you can do all things with ease. It is simply a task. Being spiritual does not require effort. It is the way you are it is the way you live, eat, breath, smile and smell. It is ever present like Dogen said. It is like a fountain in front of you all you must do is drink.
You cannot get a firm grip on water since it is with out form. Any form it will adopt will only be temporary.
What buddha and Christ learned from these temptations that in the end the temptation wasn't important. They learned to look beyond. (I do not pretend to be at the level of Christ or Buddha, Thsi is only my interpretation)
Easy is only a matter of perseption, once you realize it is only a peception you can do all things with ease. It is simply a task. Being spiritual does not require effort. It is the way you are it is the way you live, eat, breath, smile and smell. It is ever present like Dogen said. It is like a fountain in front of you all you must do is drink.
You cannot get a firm grip on water since it is with out form. Any form it will adopt will only be temporary.
Maybe life is easier for you, but there are lots of things to lose by having this belief, as there is with any belief. To say there's nothing to lose is just plain arrogant. I for one would rather think we are all completely seperate. That what I've learnt I learnt on my own. That my creativity isn't simply someone else's being recycled... The fact that I'd rather believe we are all individuals as oposed to "the same person" is not simply because I like it that way more... I've grown very comfortable with what I percieve to be true, and instead of seeking to change reality for my comfort, I change myself to fit reality. The journey to spirituality is an internal one... To try to be spiritual by imposing your beliefs on reality (ie. the spirit/soul, auras, miracles, etc...) is a losing battle with no reward. If you want to believe we are all the same person, be my guest. You may even be right. But to say there's nothing to lose by following any belief is ridiculous.
If these beliefs were true, Jesus and Buddha would not be under achievers, they'd be the only true achievers. Everyone other than them is simply recycling their accomplishments by grasping them from the collective concsiousness. And I understand that to a theistic mind that just backs you up... But to an athiestic mind, where we are all equals, including Jesus and Buddha, that just doesn't check out at all... Jesus and Buddha were incredibly wise people. They figured out the secret to their life. We all have that potential, and not because they did it first, because we are all strong enough to do it ourselves. With or without their guidance. Now you can all follow Buddha or Christ, and I wish you the best... But the way I see it, true "enlightenment" can only come with understanding, and true understanding can only come from experience... Not a teacher or book. Empty, you know that my way of life often parallels Taoism, not because Buddha told me do so, cause I ended up here on my own.
I find teachers detrimental. Since we are all equals we shouldn't put too much faith in anyone... Well, no more than yourself anyway. Everyone is your teacher. If you're stong enough, you'll get through it all on your own...
Exactly. I've walked plenty of wrong directions before, but now I truly know why they're the wrong direction. I've gotten caught in plenty of quicksand, but now I truly know how to get out. I believe in sharing knowledge, but I don't think preaching and following has any use other than saving time. And it's not worth it concidering the experience you lose out on. Like I said, it doesn't mean you can't take suggestions from people, or learn from someone else, but in the end do it for yourself...
He woulda fallen with style, lol
No, just question them
I think you're mistaken with comfortable ignorance. All wise men put plenty of effort in to it... The people who don't put effort in to it (Shea) end up full of hot air.
Someone went through alot of effort to make the map before you got it. And unless you search all the terrain for youself, you'll never know for sure if the map was accurate. So could you really say you're enlightened without searching the terrain on your own?
Nicely put.
But did it take effort to realize this?
But BECOMING truly spirital does require effort, and this is the journey we're all referring to. Otherwise it wouldn't be a journey.
My only point is this... In the end we're each on this journey alone. No teachers are truly with you on your path, many are in fact holding you back... Even Jesus and Buddha will eventually hold you back because they ARE NOT YOU... Each journey is unique according the the individual. I have never followed a preacher of any sort. Always done what I felt was right. So far I've pretty much been wrong every time... But I think I'm actually starting to get somewhere through the process of elimination, lol. All the knowledge I've gained from walking the wrong paths has created a new path for me to walk, and so far it looks like it's the right one... And no one could have taught me this. Not Jesus, Buddha or YOU. So trust yourself, and don't give up as soon as you make one wrong turn...
P.S. Empty - I hear you ditched me to go to the pub with Jeff and Harmony. Ouch, man, very ouch.
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Thats good advice. You should approach any spritual endeavor with a healthy scepticism. Its useful though to have some one who has walked a similar path before you, act as a guide just so you can avoid some of the common pitfalls.
What makes you think that youd be any less an individual if "we were all the same person" at some level? There are a lot of levels of awareness to a human being, at the top and bottom levels were all pretty much the same. We all seek shelter when cold, food when hungry etc. Because everyone else eats does that make you any less an original because you do too? We all spring from the same physical source, yet we all have different appeareances. Our conciousness is from the same source, yet we all have an individual identity. If you think your on to something spiritually, have at it
And best of luck getting there, I applaud your efforts
Its been my experience that you drop things along the way because you no longer need them. What are you afraid of losing?
Brilliant point, I take it back.
I'm afraid of losing what I really need to find the truth as oposed to illusion. But in all fairness, I wasn't really behind those points, just kinda putting some information out there. Regurgitating the text books. Personally, I could probably be just as content no matter what the truth turned out to be. I just want the truth. That's all. But in the end, I have no reason to believe that's the case. But I could be wrong. Probably am. I have great respect for Buddhism and Taoism, for the lessons it teaches... But the actual claims it makes I don't believe. Like auras, chi, etc... But the way of life Buddhism teaches is where I seem to be ending up, with my own personality projected on to it.
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r u the same one like any others??:bugeye:
Originally posted by m0rl0ck
Theres nothing to lose.
Bullshit. Life is easier and your more productive when you untangle your own idiosyncratic fucked up-edness. Unless of course you consider jesus christ, the buddha et al to be under achievers
but %0.01 is a big posssibility
There is the idea in eastern thought that all of this universe is one consiousness. A universal consioucness if you will. Is there any acctual evidence to support this?
evidence??
tangible evidence?
indirect evidence?
"cos i say so" evidence?
this is conventional definition
Atma, or the soul, is in reality identical with Paramatma the Oversoul — which is one, infinite, and eternal. The soul is in fact beyond the gross, subtle and mental worlds. But it experiences itself as being limited owing to its identification with the sharir (sthul sharir, or gross body); the pran (sukshma sharir, or subtle body, which is the vehicle of desires and vital forces); and the manas (karan sharir, or mental body, which is the seat of the mind). The soul in its transcendental state is one — formless, eternal and infinite — and yet identifies itself with the phenomenal world of forms, which are many and finite and destructible. This is Maya, or cosmic Illusion
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how to get there
In the beginning, because the soul has not yet evolved full consciousness, it is unconscious of its identity with the Oversoul. Hence, though intrinsically inseparable from the Oversoul, the soul cannot realize its own identity with it or experience infinite peace, bliss, power and knowledge. Even after the evolution of full consciousness, it cannot realize the state of the Oversoul — although it is at all times in and with the Oversoul — because its consciousness is confined to the phenomenal world, owing to the sanskaras connected with the evolution of consciousness. Even on the path, the soul is not conscious of itself but is conscious only of the gross, subtle and mental worlds, which are its own illusory shadows.
At the end of the path, however, the soul frees itself from all sanskaras and desires connected with the gross, subtle and mental worlds. It then becomes possible for it to free itself from the illusion of being finite, which came into existence owing to its identification with the gross, subtle and mental bodies. At this state the soul completely transcends the phenomenal world and becomes Self- conscious and Self-realized. To attain this goal, the soul must retain its full consciousness and at the same time know itself to be different from the sharir (gross body); the pran (subtle body, which is the vehicle of desires and vital forces); and the manas (mental body, which is the seat of the mind) — and also know itself as being beyond the gross, subtle and mental worlds.
The soul has to emancipate itself gradually from the illusion of being finite by liberating itself from the bondage of sanskaras and knowing itself to be different from its bodies — gross, subtle and mental. It thus annihilates the false ego (that is, the illusion that "I am the gross body," "I am the subtle body," or "I am the mental body"). While the soul thus frees itself from its illusion, it still retains full consciousness, which now results in Self-knowledge and realization of the Truth. Escaping through the cosmic Illusion and realizing with full consciousness its identity with the infinite Oversoul is the goal of the long journey of the soul.
*be safe and have a nice trip
what is a sanskara?
Sanskaras - the basis for our Thinking-Working Mind: The phenomenal-world that we experience, respond, and interact with, through our Actions, depends on thoughts that arise in our brain. The brain is the repository of All Sanskaras. We actually have no control over our response. Our responses are 'programmed' through our experiences. Any action arises from thought. Any thought is a response; a reaction of memory. Memory is stored in Brain as knowledge. Knowledge is the result of our experience.
We must understand how we are 'programmed' by our experiences. It is this cycle of experience, knowledge, memory, thought, action; from that action learn more through experience, and so the cycle repeats and we continue to be 'Programmed' in this life, genetically, biologically, physically, mentally and intellectually, by our 'limited experiences'. So, the cycle of forming the Sanskaras keep on repeating itself and these Sanskaras get accumulated with the Sanskaras that are part of our human consciousness. Sanskaras have been formed and transferred genetically through millennia upon millennia of our evolution.
Each person's life is simply unfolding of Sanskaras from moment to moment. I suffer, I am anxious, I am lonely, I am insecure, and I am confused, exactly like others. I laugh, I am happy; I am joyful, exactly like others. I have greed, I have envy, I have jealousy, and I have hatred, exactly like others. So, life is unfolding of our Sanskaras, and we create our own future life, as we go through this life. Events are occurring and happening outside, but the experiencing and the experiencer is within. Our pleasures, our sadness, our tragedies, our ecstasies, they are created because of the 'program' we carry in our own brain.
Thoughts are our Sanskaras. We are all caught in the cycle of Sanskaras.
tangible evidence?
indirect evidence?
"cos i say so" evidence?
this is conventional definition
Atma, or the soul, is in reality identical with Paramatma the Oversoul — which is one, infinite, and eternal. The soul is in fact beyond the gross, subtle and mental worlds. But it experiences itself as being limited owing to its identification with the sharir (sthul sharir, or gross body); the pran (sukshma sharir, or subtle body, which is the vehicle of desires and vital forces); and the manas (karan sharir, or mental body, which is the seat of the mind). The soul in its transcendental state is one — formless, eternal and infinite — and yet identifies itself with the phenomenal world of forms, which are many and finite and destructible. This is Maya, or cosmic Illusion
----------------------------------------------------------------------
how to get there
In the beginning, because the soul has not yet evolved full consciousness, it is unconscious of its identity with the Oversoul. Hence, though intrinsically inseparable from the Oversoul, the soul cannot realize its own identity with it or experience infinite peace, bliss, power and knowledge. Even after the evolution of full consciousness, it cannot realize the state of the Oversoul — although it is at all times in and with the Oversoul — because its consciousness is confined to the phenomenal world, owing to the sanskaras connected with the evolution of consciousness. Even on the path, the soul is not conscious of itself but is conscious only of the gross, subtle and mental worlds, which are its own illusory shadows.
At the end of the path, however, the soul frees itself from all sanskaras and desires connected with the gross, subtle and mental worlds. It then becomes possible for it to free itself from the illusion of being finite, which came into existence owing to its identification with the gross, subtle and mental bodies. At this state the soul completely transcends the phenomenal world and becomes Self- conscious and Self-realized. To attain this goal, the soul must retain its full consciousness and at the same time know itself to be different from the sharir (gross body); the pran (subtle body, which is the vehicle of desires and vital forces); and the manas (mental body, which is the seat of the mind) — and also know itself as being beyond the gross, subtle and mental worlds.
The soul has to emancipate itself gradually from the illusion of being finite by liberating itself from the bondage of sanskaras and knowing itself to be different from its bodies — gross, subtle and mental. It thus annihilates the false ego (that is, the illusion that "I am the gross body," "I am the subtle body," or "I am the mental body"). While the soul thus frees itself from its illusion, it still retains full consciousness, which now results in Self-knowledge and realization of the Truth. Escaping through the cosmic Illusion and realizing with full consciousness its identity with the infinite Oversoul is the goal of the long journey of the soul.
*be safe and have a nice trip
what is a sanskara?
Sanskaras - the basis for our Thinking-Working Mind: The phenomenal-world that we experience, respond, and interact with, through our Actions, depends on thoughts that arise in our brain. The brain is the repository of All Sanskaras. We actually have no control over our response. Our responses are 'programmed' through our experiences. Any action arises from thought. Any thought is a response; a reaction of memory. Memory is stored in Brain as knowledge. Knowledge is the result of our experience.
We must understand how we are 'programmed' by our experiences. It is this cycle of experience, knowledge, memory, thought, action; from that action learn more through experience, and so the cycle repeats and we continue to be 'Programmed' in this life, genetically, biologically, physically, mentally and intellectually, by our 'limited experiences'. So, the cycle of forming the Sanskaras keep on repeating itself and these Sanskaras get accumulated with the Sanskaras that are part of our human consciousness. Sanskaras have been formed and transferred genetically through millennia upon millennia of our evolution.
Each person's life is simply unfolding of Sanskaras from moment to moment. I suffer, I am anxious, I am lonely, I am insecure, and I am confused, exactly like others. I laugh, I am happy; I am joyful, exactly like others. I have greed, I have envy, I have jealousy, and I have hatred, exactly like others. So, life is unfolding of our Sanskaras, and we create our own future life, as we go through this life. Events are occurring and happening outside, but the experiencing and the experiencer is within. Our pleasures, our sadness, our tragedies, our ecstasies, they are created because of the 'program' we carry in our own brain.
Thoughts are our Sanskaras. We are all caught in the cycle of Sanskaras.
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I sometimes theorize another universe made of purely consciousness. Graph this universe and you could find points that represent each of us. "Us" is the places where the 2 universes intertwine. Matter cannot be found in the universe of consciousness, consciousness cannot be found in the universe of matter. Just an interesting theory. Who knows.
That sounds alot like "chi".
IantheFREESPIRIT
Registered Member
i have experienced 'we are all the same'
Myself (Ian) and Ben experienced it a few weeks ago, while on MDMA, then again last night Ian Carlos Mike and Sean all experienced it on MDMA, Sean however wasnt on MDMA but understood everything so i suspect he had been to this level before. Tom has also been to the exact same level or higher thought/being.
It is the single greatest experience as to date of my 17 year life, of which only the past half a year to a year has been taking drugs.
If you reply to this post i can explain to you how to experience this for yourself, but in learning, you must also teach to others.
WHY ISNT THE WHOLE WORLD LIKE THIS IN FEELING? grr we can only wish.
Myself (Ian) and Ben experienced it a few weeks ago, while on MDMA, then again last night Ian Carlos Mike and Sean all experienced it on MDMA, Sean however wasnt on MDMA but understood everything so i suspect he had been to this level before. Tom has also been to the exact same level or higher thought/being.
It is the single greatest experience as to date of my 17 year life, of which only the past half a year to a year has been taking drugs.
If you reply to this post i can explain to you how to experience this for yourself, but in learning, you must also teach to others.
WHY ISNT THE WHOLE WORLD LIKE THIS IN FEELING? grr we can only wish.
Ian,
Ah, MDMA. An amazing drug indeed. And I can tell from your post you took all the right things from your trips. I have learnt alot from MDMA. I am much more open and accepting of people, I no longer judge. I have learnt the true value of happiness (instead of glorifying depression). Eventually it got to the point where I outgrew the drug (I'm almost 20 now), but I kept all the valuable lessons I learnt. Good luck in future tripping!
P.S. You MUST download the song Infected Mushroom - Symphonatic, PLEASE!!!
Ah, MDMA. An amazing drug indeed. And I can tell from your post you took all the right things from your trips. I have learnt alot from MDMA. I am much more open and accepting of people, I no longer judge. I have learnt the true value of happiness (instead of glorifying depression). Eventually it got to the point where I outgrew the drug (I'm almost 20 now), but I kept all the valuable lessons I learnt. Good luck in future tripping!
P.S. You MUST download the song Infected Mushroom - Symphonatic, PLEASE!!!