Knobfather more like
War on Iran
- Thread starter ele
- Start date
sculptor
Valued Senior Member
I am given to understand (despite all available evidence), that not all political and/or military leaders are totally f--king insane.
..................................................
but, then again: What is the point of having the most powerful military on the planet if you don't use it?
............................
it seems that:
The effectiveness of military power is often limited by the inability to translate that force into political success.
...............................
What does winning look like?
It has been said that: You can not win a war from the air...................?
................................................
OK: I'm confused.
..................................................
but, then again: What is the point of having the most powerful military on the planet if you don't use it?
............................
it seems that:
The effectiveness of military power is often limited by the inability to translate that force into political success.
...............................
What does winning look like?
It has been said that: You can not win a war from the air...................?
................................................
OK: I'm confused.
Last edited:
So that you don't have to use it, maybe?
Are you of the opinion that there is no point in having the most powerful weapon on the planet if you don't use it?
If you use force then it is no longer political success, but success by force. Political success is achieved without force, and force is only used when politics fails.
Some regimes rule by might. But that's not politics.
That has been the experience since WW2. The idea is that airpower alone will not win you a war. If you have an example of an exception?
Ok.
exchemist
Valued Senior Member
I'm not sure why.
The most powerful military on the planet did not stop the USA losing in Vietnam. It's called asymmetric warfare.
The lesson of that was that there are circumstances where sheer military power does not solve the problem at hand. Like any powerful tool, it needs to be applied with intelligence, not just used inappropriately, in the wrong circumstances, without thought.
In this case I am quite sure the US military and foreign affairs professionals knew well that this was a bad idea and I have no doubt advised as much. But they were evidently ignored, possibly even fired by Hegseth who thought he and Trump, being TV personalities rather than professionals
, knew better.And indeed, you cannot win a war from the air, as is being demonstrated right now.
There was no need for any of this. It is a problem entirely of Trump's own making, thanks to him allowing himself to be bamboozled into it by Netanyahu.
Does it ever feel mysteriously difficult to explain the difference, as if maybe someone thinks that only applies to nukes, but doesn't know to actually say so? Sometimes I wonder what it is people are forgetting to tell me that would otherwise make what they're saying make sense. Comparatively, consider that after toppling Mosaddegh, the U.S. helped Iran build the fourth-largest military in the world. Compared to what is the point, I can think of a few reasons why that army wouldn't be invading across our borders. And let's not pretend they were a vanguard for invading the Soviet Union. How many of our servicemembers enlisted in hopes of invading Iran, I wonder. Or attacking Mexico, for those who remember the War on Drugs. "What is the point," our neighbor asks↑, "of having the most powerful military on the planet if you don't use it?" Historically, that argument wasn't supposed to be good enough. The reason our latter- and new-century wars have been so controversial at home is precisely because that argument isn't supposed to be good enough.
It is as if the proverbial They have gotten everything they think they can from the American Way, and would discard it for something else in pursuit of greater riches and gratification. Several years ago↗, actor Wallace Shawn reflected on the course of his lifetime:
When I remember the way I used to feel—when I think about how important it once seemed to me to tell people the truth about the crimes in which we all were implicated—well, that all seems quaint and sad. It turns out that by the time the American public learned the sorts of things I'd felt they needed to learn, by the time they came to look in the mirror, what they saw there didn't look so bad to them. And so, yes, an awful lot of people don't get upset when they hear Trump talk.
On the contrary, they seem to feel a great sense of relief. Trump has liberated a lot of people from the last vestiges of the Sermon on the Mount. A lot of people turn out to have been sick and tired of pretending to be good. The fact that the leader of one of our two parties—the party, in fact, that has for many decades represented what was normal, acceptable, and respectable—was not ashamed to reveal his own selfishness, was not ashamed to reveal his own indifference to the suffering of others, was not even ashamed to reveal his own cheerful enjoyment of cruelty…all of this helped people to feel that they no longer needed to be ashamed of those qualities in themselves either. They didn't need to feel bad because they didn't care about other people. Maybe they didn't want to be forbearing toward enemies. Maybe they didn't want to be gentle or kind.
On the contrary, they seem to feel a great sense of relief. Trump has liberated a lot of people from the last vestiges of the Sermon on the Mount. A lot of people turn out to have been sick and tired of pretending to be good. The fact that the leader of one of our two parties—the party, in fact, that has for many decades represented what was normal, acceptable, and respectable—was not ashamed to reveal his own selfishness, was not ashamed to reveal his own indifference to the suffering of others, was not even ashamed to reveal his own cheerful enjoyment of cruelty…all of this helped people to feel that they no longer needed to be ashamed of those qualities in themselves either. They didn't need to feel bad because they didn't care about other people. Maybe they didn't want to be forbearing toward enemies. Maybe they didn't want to be gentle or kind.
"So that you don't have to use it, maybe?" For the new ethic, the question is why you wouldn't want to. The American Way you're recalling has apparently outlived its usefulness; modern patriots are so over it.
Let's all hope you don't have a gun for "home defense."
TheVat
Valued Senior Member
I loved the Shawn snippet. I wonder if his erstwhile dinner companion, Andre Gregory, might add that our modern techno culture has also made people numb and centered on their own whims. With that numbness, any moral contortion becomes possible as it promises to make you feel alive.
sculptor
Valued Senior Member
Personally, I think that having a gun for "home defense" is(usually) a really bad idea.
Either get over your(most likely) psychotic insecurity, or; get a dog.
That was Zelensky’s mistake, he had guns and not dogs.
Last edited:
"psychotic insecurity"
That from someone so desperate for their children’s love he tells them to call their mother yearly and thank her for…
This:
I mean, I review the material from the psychiatrists, psychologists and pundits as they model the American public's transformation, pontificating on the significance and "deeper meaning" of the Trump movement - but, I still find myself unable to "get it." The best I can do is accept one of your aphorisms - "the cruelty is the point." So, I console myself with compiling a file of "leopard's eating people's faces" examples, reveling in schadenfreude.
Discovering that a significant percentage - almost half - of my countrymen embrace his blatant "pseudo-fascism," and, in turn, are OK with themselves being "pseudo-fascists" - this just blew my mind. I caught myself withdrawing, divorcing my psyche from the whole process - a coping mechanism, I suppose, because I am absolutely unable to understand it.
It completely shattered a fundamental lynch-pin of my psyche - one that I wasn't conscious of possessing - supposing that, deep down, people were essentially "good," or at the very least, strived to be so. I can no longer attribute condoning his conduct to ignorance, it's gone on far too long for excuses. Even "stupidity" doesn't cut it, tRump communicates on a third grade level, at best.
America was never a "perfect" country, and I never considered it such. However, there used to be an aspiration toward morality and education, respect for the sciences and truth in general, a desire to help others, to "be the best" - in a good way, not through the denigration, disparagement and vilification that serves as a substitute now days. This is gone. Even lip-service for this is gone.
Don't misunderstand, I'm interested in the content, but I lack the patience to translate his speeches. The tone, the tempo, the grammar, the vocabulary, the exaggeration, the incessant lies, the juvenile boasting - all of it grates my nerves beyond belief, producing effects similar to a Vogon poetry reading. I'm left with the sour-grapes philosophy of remembering I have not too many more years left on this planet to experience the continued degradation - sad, but it is what it is.
is just unfathomable, nearly impossible to reconcile and assimilate.
I mean, I review the material from the psychiatrists, psychologists and pundits as they model the American public's transformation, pontificating on the significance and "deeper meaning" of the Trump movement - but, I still find myself unable to "get it." The best I can do is accept one of your aphorisms - "the cruelty is the point." So, I console myself with compiling a file of "leopard's eating people's faces" examples, reveling in schadenfreude.
Discovering that a significant percentage - almost half - of my countrymen embrace his blatant "pseudo-fascism," and, in turn, are OK with themselves being "pseudo-fascists" - this just blew my mind. I caught myself withdrawing, divorcing my psyche from the whole process - a coping mechanism, I suppose, because I am absolutely unable to understand it.
It completely shattered a fundamental lynch-pin of my psyche - one that I wasn't conscious of possessing - supposing that, deep down, people were essentially "good," or at the very least, strived to be so. I can no longer attribute condoning his conduct to ignorance, it's gone on far too long for excuses. Even "stupidity" doesn't cut it, tRump communicates on a third grade level, at best.
America was never a "perfect" country, and I never considered it such. However, there used to be an aspiration toward morality and education, respect for the sciences and truth in general, a desire to help others, to "be the best" - in a good way, not through the denigration, disparagement and vilification that serves as a substitute now days. This is gone. Even lip-service for this is gone.
Again, I can not comprehend how this can be. Any newscast containing a lengthy turnip audio segment elicits a scramble for the remote. I'll reach for earbuds if unable to hit the off button, much like a two year old covering his ears - feel free to label this "TDS" if you so choose. I simply see no need to expose myself to his blather, feeling like every episode I'm forced to endure erodes a couple more IQ points.
Don't misunderstand, I'm interested in the content, but I lack the patience to translate his speeches. The tone, the tempo, the grammar, the vocabulary, the exaggeration, the incessant lies, the juvenile boasting - all of it grates my nerves beyond belief, producing effects similar to a Vogon poetry reading. I'm left with the sour-grapes philosophy of remembering I have not too many more years left on this planet to experience the continued degradation - sad, but it is what it is.
Apparently. Again, sad but true, and it will take generations to recover, if ever...
TheVat
Valued Senior Member
Getting to that point meself. I generally rely on text excerpts or summaries when I feel it's a matter of keeping up with news developments. Vogon poetry is a good analogy, though Turnip induces far more temptation to gnaw my own foot off than anything from the bards of Vogon.
While articles like this
Trump Voters Are Over It
A shocking number of the president’s supporters have turned against him.
www.theatlantic.com
offer small rays of hope, I still await some indicator less anecdotal.
TACO time once more, sports fans...
Why President Trump extended his ceasefire with Iran
Best part is, the opposition evidently doesn't give a rat's ass:
Why President Trump extended his ceasefire with Iran
Best part is, the opposition evidently doesn't give a rat's ass:
So Trump has extended the ceasefire indefinitely, until such time as Iran comes up with a proposal the US will accept.
Boy that's some incentive to come to an agreement! If you don't agree we won't bomb you, but if you do agree we might restart.
I don't know if the cruelty is the point. It might be for some Trump supporters. For others, I think it might be a side effect of prioritising oneself and one's own concerns above those of others, to much more extreme extent than has been normal for Americans in previous post-WWII decades.
There seems be an attitude of "I'll take what I think I'm owed (by society) by any means I can get away with, even if it means that other people (usually people I don't know very well or at all) suffer more."
I think that Trump supporters, by and large, all think that for far too long their society and their government - the whole "system" - has not been compensating them or supporting them to the extent they think they are entitled. If the "system" is irreparably "broken", then fixing it is not an option. Besides, at the grass roots level, these people see themselves as excluded from or outside the "system". The solution is to tear the system down. But how? The system is clearly robust and it has well-established self-protection mechanisms that are meant to deal with threats and challenges.
The solution is to destroy the system from the inside. Put people into power who have no interest in abiding by or advancing the existing ideals of the system, and trust them to tear it all down.
The illogicality in all this comes from the lack of thinking ahead. Okay, so you succeed in having people break the system for you. What comes next? An age of peace and prosperity where all the ignored people are suddenly respected and given the preferential treatment they have always believed they were entitled to? Will the people they put in power really look out for the interests of the downtrodden and neglected, once the old system is gone? Will the strong man in power start caring about Billy Bob who lives in the tailer park and likes his gun more than his wife? Will the dictator work to improve Billy Bob's sorry life? With the old system gone, what happens when Billy Bob's crowd falls out of favour with the new regime? What happens when they are no longer useful idiots to be used by those in power? Billy Bob has never thought that far ahead. He's never thought about what happens when the cruelty comes back to bite him.
I am inclined to withdraw too - especially since I'm a distant observer of all this (though not an unaffected one - nobody in this interconnected world of ours can be).
But I think I have some understanding. We've seen this happen countless times in countless places before. The banality of evil. Small-minded men who convince other small-minded men that might makes right, and that that's somehow going to lead to a better world for all the small-minded men, and fuck everybody else, because who cares about them, right?
I used to hope for the same thing - that, deep down, most people are basically "good". These days, I am more inclined to think that it's more likely that, say, 90% of people are basically good, while the other 10% of people are sociopathic narcissicts of one kind or another.
In a functioning society, there are systems in place that limit the ability of the sociopathic narcissists to exert power over other people. In a dysfunctional society, the sociopathic narcissists are allowed - even encouraged - to rise to positions of power and influence over others.
Trump is stupid in terms of understanding the world, undoubtedly. But he is politically savvy. There are more than enough Billy Bobs in America right now that Trump has succeeding in bluffing them into believing that what's good for Trump will eventually - at some undetermined future date - be good for them, too. Some of them, no doubt, still think that Trump cares about them.
There was a time, not so long ago, when America was more communitarian and less individualistic. The pendulum has swung in the other direction in recent years. It's not a lost cause. With luck and more than a little effort, I sincerely think and hope that American can get its mojo back. All that is really needed is for enough people to come around to seeing the current shit show for what is, and wanting something better.
I gave up on taking anything Trump says seriously some time ago. He flip flops on any given position every two minutes. His opinion on any issue that doesn't concern his own personal business is usually whatever opinion was most recently expressed to him by the last person he talked to. He's practically illiterate and seems to have no useful knowledge of anything. But worse than all that are the incessant lies he tells. Blatantly and constantly. In almost every sentence, these days. Without an ounce of shame.
There's zero point in paying attention to anything Trump says. We can only wait to see what he does.
It's pointless. All his speeches are long, rambling monologues about whatever pops into his mind at that instant. I doubt he can read an autocue, let alone prepare a proper speech of his own.
I'm optimistic. Best case scenario is that America, when the chance comes around, decides collectively (by majority) to put this whole sorry eight wasted years behind them, to do something more constructive for their collective selves and, as a side-effect, perhaps for the rest of the world, too.
I don't want to think about the worst case scenario, but if it happens I'm enough of a realist that it will come as just one more disappointment rather than as a surprise.
From my observations it is closer to "I'll take what I think I'm owed by any means I can get away with, especially if it means that other people suffer more. Because then I win and they lose."
"The greatest irony of democracy is that it provides the very tools to its mortal enemies who seek to destroy it." -Joseph Goebbels
TheVat
Valued Senior Member
“Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”
- Hermann Göring
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”
- Hermann Göring
exchemist
Valued Senior Member
He’s looking for a way to climb down now, having been told it won’t be a quick “deal” made under duress in the way he, as a gangster, would like, because Iran can outlast him if need be. But the White House staff have to talk him down by degrees because he is senile and likely to change his mind on a whim. The next step will be for him “graciously” to partially lift the blockade, or tacitly fail to enforce it, enough for the Iranians to get on a plane to Islamabad.
But he has to make it look, at least in the eyes of an idiot, that he is in control of the process and “winning” as he does it.
