Viruses - who are they? Dispassionate killers who don't choos their victims, killing everyone they can?

ольга said:
Ковид вышел из лаборатории в Китае. Откуда мы знаем, что ещё и в каких количествах может оттуда выйти? Нужно уже сейчас искать от этого оружие и защиту, а не бороться с последствиями.
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It is possible but unlikely, the scientific community think this was a zoonotic event, from animals to humans.
 
Pinball1970 said:
It is possible but unlikely, the scientific community think this was a zoonotic event, from animals to humans.
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У нас писали, что уже точно известно, что ковид вышел из лаборатории в Китае.
 
ольга said:
У нас писали, что уже точно известно, что ковид вышел из лаборатории в Китае.
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That is not the consensus. Do you have a citation? This is an interesting thread, please do not derail it with a discussion on the China conspiracy.
 
Pinball1970 said:
That is not the consensus. Do you have a citation? This is an interesting thread, please do not derail it with a discussion on the China conspiracy.
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В прессе писали. Хорошо, не будем отвлекаться. Я сейчас немного Кунина и Маркова почитала. Сейчас говорят о том, что на Земле не могла зародится жизнь, на это бы не хватило времени. Но я подумала, а что, если вирусы действительно в этом поучаствовали, и попали на Землю из космоса? Там могли быть подходящие условия, и достаточно времени, больше, чем существует Земля.
 
ольга said:
В прессе писали. Хорошо, не будем отвлекаться. Я сейчас немного Кунина и Маркова почитала. Сейчас говорят о том, что на Земле не могла зародится жизнь, на это бы не хватило времени. Но я подумала, а что, если вирусы действительно в этом поучаствовали, и попали на Землю из космоса? Там могли быть подходящие условия, и достаточно времени, больше, чем существует Земля.
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Wow, that's a first. You usually dig your Russian heels in and try and kick my privileged English arse.
I consider this a move forward. I upvoted.
 
ольга said:
В прессе писали. Хорошо, не будем отвлекаться. Я сейчас немного Кунина и Маркова почитала. Сейчас говорят о том, что на Земле не могла зародится жизнь, на это бы не хватило времени. Но я подумала, а что, если вирусы действительно в этом поучаствовали, и попали на Землю из космоса? Там могли быть подходящие условия, и достаточно времени, больше, чем существует Земля.
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Also to be clear Olga the China lab theory WAS a valid origin Theory. It was seriously discussed in the scientific community and investigated by the World Health Organisation.
If it came to light that the China lab was the origin after all, I would be surprised but not completely surprised.
The only reason I wanted to move on is that viruses, how they work where they come from and what their impact is on human health, would give a more interesting discussion.
 
Pinball1970 said:
Also to be clear Olga the China lab theory WAS a valid origin Theory. It was seriously discussed in the scientific community and investigated by the World Health Organisation.
If it came to light that the China lab was the origin after all, I would be surprised but not completely surprised.
The only reason I wanted to move on is that viruses, how they work where they come from and what their impact is on human health, would give a more interesting discussion.
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Да, согласна. Здесь нужна совместная работа биологов, химиков и физиков. Чтобы понять, при каких физических условиях вирусы могли сформироваться. Сколько времени для этого понадобилось бы. И многое другое.
 
Pinball1970 said:
Also to be clear Olga the China lab theory WAS a valid origin Theory. It was seriously discussed in the scientific community and investigated by the World Health Organisation.
If it came to light that the China lab was the origin after all, I would be surprised but not completely surprised.
The only reason I wanted to move on is that viruses, how they work where they come from and what their impact is on human health, would give a more interesting discussion.
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Yes, please, let’s not get bogged down in yet another potentially political discussion on the overworked subject of the origin of the covid pandemic. :rolleyes:

The wider role of viruses in life on Earth is a far more interesting subject - and one that I for one know little about.
 
exchemist said:
Yes, please, let’s not get bogged down in yet another potentially political discussion on the overworked subject of the origin of the covid pandemic. :rolleyes:

The wider role of viruses in life on Earth is a far more interesting subject - and one that I for one know little about.
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And let's not forget the Woke Mind Virus. Just kidding. But seriously, as far as teleological thinking goes, it's hard not to project some sort of intentionality onto viruses.
 
exchemist said:
Yes, please, let’s not get bogged down in yet another potentially political discussion on the overworked subject of the origin of the covid pandemic. :rolleyes:

The wider role of viruses in life on Earth is a far more interesting subject - and one that I for one know little about.
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Yes and Olga sent me a "love" emoji. I am not reading too much into this BUT it was from Russia with love.

It you want to report me for cheese regarding that comment I will totally support that.
 
exchemist said:
By the way, one point made early in the article I linked to in post 15 is that viruses are far, far more than just causes of diseases. They are absolutely everywhere in the living world, in vast numbers, and for the most part are not pathogenic towards other organisms. Viruses need to be seen as a fundamental class of life (even if they are cannot be said to be themselves "alive" in a full sense of the term), alongside bacteria, and not just regarded as some kind of undesirable parasite.
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They're somewhat always inherently "extremely mildly pathogenic" (I guess "asymptomatically parasitic" describes better) in the sense that they're always piggybacking on the host's resources to replicate. Whatever is the level of non-pathogenicty, it generally doesn't imply a commensal relationship (if there are viruses thought to be commensal, that's new to me, I'd be interested in reading more on it *), it's more like just being "sneaky," having only a level of activity that doesn't trigger a significant immune response - which ironically is often part of the pathogenesis itself, it can be more so than what the viruses are doing directly, which perhaps may be one sneaky way of wording a wider "non-pathogenicity" of viruses. Not saying that it's what happens in the article, which I didn't read.

But they're AFAIK always parasitic, even if non-pathogenous in some cases. Whether they can be "desirable parasites," well, that's more of a weird philosophical question than a scientific one, given that most people, non-masochists, wouldn't desire being targets of parasites, regardless of how "sneaky" they are in stealing resources.

What can be said that would approach some kind of "desirability" would be in some way that they "help evolution," but then it's not different with virulent pathogens and even mass-extinction-level meteor impacts, except that those are more noticeably harmful. It's more of a nonsensical point of view that adopts entropy as a "goal" for the universe or something, rather than real-world human experiences. Although there may be some way to phrase this ecological role without seeing evolution as a "goal" and their eventual role in things like horizontal gene transfer or natural selection as "helping" it in a human-level way of "help." More like lions are "helping nature" in killing zebras or people and so forth, meaning doing what they do, part of a network of somewhat balanced interactions, but with no magical "greater good" in some way analog to creationism.

* There's indeed some stuff in this regard:
The good viruses: viral mutualistic symbioses
Marilyn J Roossinck 1
Affiliations Expand
PMID: 21200397 DOI: 10.1038/nrmicro2491
Abstract
Although viruses are most often studied as pathogens, many are beneficial to their hosts, providing essential functions in some cases and conditionally beneficial functions in others. Beneficial viruses have been discovered in many different hosts, including bacteria, insects, plants, fungi and animals. How these beneficial interactions evolve is still a mystery in many cases but, as discussed in this Review, the mechanisms of these interactions are beginning to be understood in more detail.
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There's even a speculative theory that the eukaryote nuclear genome itself may have evolved from some kind of viral take-over/commensal relationship. But it's not the kind of thing we'd find good if we're infected with something with this sort of "plan" or "tendency."
 
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Buckaroo Banzai said:
They're somewhat always inherently "extremely mildly pathogenic" (I guess "asymptomatically parasitic" describes better) in the sense that they're always piggybacking on the host's resources to replicate. Whatever is the level of non-pathogenicty, it generally doesn't imply a commensal relationship (if there are viruses thought to be commensal, that's new to me, I'd be interested in reading more on it), it's more like just being "sneaky," having only a level of activity that doesn't trigger a significant immune response - which ironically is often part of the pathogenesis itself, it can be more so than what the viruses are doing directly, which perhaps may be one sneaky way of wording a wider "non-pathogenicity" of viruses. Not saying that it's what happens in the article, which I didn't read.

But they're AFAIK always parasitic, even if non-pathogenous in some cases. Whether they can be "desirable parasites," well, that's more of a weird philosophical question than a scientific one, given that most people, non-masochists, wouldn't desire being targets of parasites, regardless of how "sneaky" they are in stealing resources.

What can be said that would approach some kind of "desirability" would be in some way that they "help evolution," but then it's not different with virulent pathogens and even mass-extinction-level meteor impacts, except that those are more noticeably harmful. It's more of a nonsensical point of view that adopts entropy as a "goal" for the universe or something, rather than real-world human experiences. Although there may be some way to phrase this ecological role without seeing evolution as a "goal" and their eventual role in things like horizontal gene transfer or natural selection as "helping" it in a human-level way of "help." More like lions are "helping nature" in killing zebras or people and so forth, meaning doing what they do, part of a network of somewhat balanced interactions, but with no magical "greater good" in some way analog to creationism.
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Всё живое вообще является паразитами в какой то степени. Потому что отличительная особенность всего живого - питаться чьей то энергией. Вы съедаете других животных, или растения, чтобы получить энергию, без которой вы не могли бы жить. Камни этого не делают. Из живых, только растения не убивают других живых существ для того, чтобы жить самим. Они питаются неживыми веществами, и энергией Солнца.
 
parmalee said:
And let's not forget the Woke Mind Virus. Just kidding. But seriously, as far as teleological thinking goes, it's hard not to project some sort of intentionality onto viruses.
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Finding out how a virus works and what is was exactly shocked me, it's simplicity.
A little bit of genetic material in a protein coat. That's pretty much it.
The total purpose is to make copies of itself.

Antibiotics have no effect because they interact on the bacterial cell wall and a virus does not have one.
Anti virals like Acyclovir and AZT disrupt the enzymes facilitating genetic replication.

Acyclovir disrupts DNA polymerase and AZT disrupts reverse transcriptase.

We had no anti viral treatment offered in the UK for COVID-19, not in 2021 but some were appearing then in the states and UK for severe cases.

If you get a viral infection, you either fight it or die, once you have treatment options are limited.

These blighters stay with us forever, evading our immune system, EB, CMV, Herpes virus waiting till our immune system fails which can lead to cancer.

Famous one illustrated in Philadelphia was KS lesions on Tom Hanks body in court.
 
Pinball1970 said:
Finding out how a virus works and what is was exactly shocked me, it's simplicity.
A little bit of genetic material in a protein coat. That's pretty much it.
The total purpose is to make copies of itself.

Antibiotics have no effect because they interact on the bacterial cell wall and a virus does not have one.
Anti virals like Acyclovir and AZT disrupt the enzymes facilitating genetic replication.

Acyclovir disrupts DNA polymerase and AZT disrupts reverse transcriptase.

We had no anti viral treatment offered in the UK for COVID-19, not in 2021 but some were appearing then in the states and UK for severe cases.

If you get a viral infection, you either fight it or die, once you have treatment options are limited.

These blighters stay with us forever, evading our immune system, EB, CMV, Herpes virus waiting till our immune system fails which can lead to cancer.

Famous one illustrated in Philadelphia was KS lesions on Tom Hanks body in court.
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Пин, я сейчас ещё более интересные вещи про вирусы прочитала. Оказывается, вирусов на планете больше, чем звёзд во Вселенной, это самый многочисленный биологический вид на планете, они живут даже в океанах, они повсюду, но патологическими из них является совсем мизерная часть мутировавших вирусов. Потому что вирусу не выгодно убивать своего хозяина, без него он тоже погибнет. Вирусы выполняют ещё как бы "роль пчёл" на планете. Они переносят различный генетический материал на себе от разных видов, в которых они побывали, и это похоже на пчёл, которые переносят пыльцу с одного растения на другое. Т.е. они обеспечивают видовое многообразие. И ещё они могут вырабатывать различные полезные свойства у живых организмов. Например, холодостойкость и устойчивость к засухе у растений. Ещё есть вирусы, которые убивают только больные патологические клетки, и не трогают здоровые. И ещё: у вирусов всегда наблюдается симметричное строение. Почему? В общем, вирусы - это огромный малопознанный ещё пока мир.
 
ольга said:
Пин, я сейчас ещё более интересные вещи про вирусы прочитала. Оказывается, вирусов на планете больше, чем звёзд во Вселенной, это самый многочисленный биологический вид на планете, они живут даже в океанах, они повсюду, но патологическими из них является совсем мизерная часть мутировавших вирусов. Потому что вирусу не выгодно убивать своего хозяина, без него он тоже погибнет. Вирусы выполняют ещё как бы "роль пчёл" на планете. Они переносят различный генетический материал на себе от разных видов, в которых они побывали, и это похоже на пчёл, которые переносят пыльцу с одного растения на другое. Т.е. они обеспечивают видовое многообразие. И ещё они могут вырабатывать различные полезные свойства у живых организмов. Например, холодостойкость и устойчивость к засухе у растений. Ещё есть вирусы, которые убивают только больные патологические клетки, и не трогают здоровые. И ещё: у вирусов всегда наблюдается симметричное строение. Почему? В общем, вирусы - это огромный малопознанный ещё пока мир.
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That is actually an excellent point Olga. Yes, viruses make up about 5% of our entire genome, if you think that is small then be aware we only use 2% for coding for proteins, all the rest are regulatory or what was referred to as "junk."

What the ERVs do in our genome is an active area of research and it varies from, nothing to regulatory to being implied in some cancers.
 
Pinball1970 said:
That is actually an excellent point Olga. Yes, viruses make up about 5% of our entire genome, if you think that is small then be aware we only use 2% for coding for proteins, all the rest are regulatory or what was referred to as "junk."

What the ERVs do in our genome is an active area of research and it varies from, nothing to regulatory to being implied in some cancers.
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Пин, а уже пробуют использовать вирусы, убивающие только больные клетки, для лечения онкологических заболеваний?
 
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