Viciousness

X

Xev

Registered Senior Member
Re-reading "Red Dragon" for the first time in ages. Just finished it.

One quote strikes me:

"He wondered if, in the great body of mankind, in the minds of men set on civilization, the vicious urges we control in ourselves and the dark instinctive knowledge of those urges function like the crippled virus the body arms against"

For years I have struggled with my own innate viciousness. Certain human, all too human propensities towards cruelty. It was not the restraining them that hurts, it is the fear that I am only innately vicious - that I have no propensities towards compassion.

Nietzsche helps a little :)

"Of all evil I deem you capable: therefore I want the good from you. Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws. "

Is Harris right to say that the our knowledge of these urges is our saviour? That knowing that we have an innate cruelty vaccinates us from ever acting in a way that is cruel and vicious?

More to the point, is there a reason (other than, "Xev, you'll go to fucking prision") to restrain our vicious urges? I believe that true morality springs from innate decency, but I also know that innate cruelty exists.

Should we embrace it? Willingly adopt the beast? What is one to do with one's vicious urges?

Edit to add:

Oh, and Adam, don't even think of making some crack about how I can abuse you anytime. I swear, if you do I will fly to Oz and personally kick your arse.

Oh wait......duh. Nevermind.

Oh, and Adam, I dedicate this thread to you, whose ramblings set off this chain of thought. Oh! And Thomas Harris! And lack of sleep!
 
From: http://www.sciforums.com/t8458/s/thread.html
My reasons:

As in another thread I'll provide the quote: "Honous is virtue's reward". Now, I'm not 100% sure about what these are, but I'm trying to do it anyway.

As for letting other people carry burdens, letting problems be handled by other people... What would you do if you saw some guy trying to rape a woman? Let someone else handle it? Hope someone else handles it? Walk on by? Not me. Important tasks or burdens are not for "other people".

But still, why?

I could say it boils down to "Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you." But to me, although a good general rule, it seems selfish. Like we should only behave in a civil manner because that's what we want for ourselves from others. So that old maxim doesn't cut it for me.

I think, in the end, what it comes down to for me is my personal belief in humanity and the advancement of humanity. We can either remain animals, clubbing each other over the head for a deer corpse, or we can be civil and reach the stars. Does that mean law and order? No. Law is for people who can't control themselves. What it means is living up to that ideal, of leaving behind the clubs and reaching for the stars, and making it your own personal responsibility to contribute in some way toward that future. Even if your contribution consists of merely refusing to be the worst of what humanity has to offer.

Some day I'll figure all this out thoroughly and write it down or something.
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From: http://www.sciforums.com/t9026/s/thread.html
A brief peep inside Adam's head...

All my life I've been interested in what people do, what we can do, and why we do and don't do such things. In the navy I learnt more about what I could do, and why. It was actually on the rifle range at HMAS Cerberus (kind of appropriate that it was at a base with such a name) that I realised precisely how easy it is to kill. I had a moment of revelation, you might say. I considered security procedures, rifle ranges, close work with pistols and knives, bombs, the works. And I considered all the important people in the world, and how stupid they are to make themselves so vulnerable. I realised then that there was not one single person in the world beyond my reach. It really is a shock, to grow up as I did, then realise one day that not only was the navy training me to be able to do such things, but that I was naturally good at it. (The very first magazine I ever fired, from an L1A1, I scored over 80% accuracy at all ranges.) While in the navy I continued to think about it, and after the navy I spent several years doing very little else but thinking about such things. As I've mentioned before, it seemed to me that we can, with a very simple act, reduce everyone to absolute equality. And that all politics, religion, sexual preference debates, abortion debates, and every other thing you can think of like that, were all basically luxuries those stupid people out there (at such times I considered everyone "them", as opposed to me and others like me) squabbled over as though they mattered, when in fact such things didn't matter at all because I could end all such debates, dreams, and hopes for anyone at any time, with absolute equality, reducing all of it to one thing. To be honest that scared the hell out of me. I did not like the idea, the realisation. Even now, when I see/hear people arguing and debating, I do feel somewhat separate from it all, and participation is somewhat going through the motions. Not just participation in discussions, but participation in general human activity. This is what the military helped do to me, and I'm not at all happy about it.

I stewed in that mess for several years, trying to figure things out. I held, and still hold, a deep resentment toward the military. Even so, for years I've felt that life would be so much easier and simpler if someone would just recall me to active service and tell me to go shoot people or blow things up. It's so easy. There's no politics. You just find a legitimate target and destroy it. And I'm good at it.

Eventually I realised the solution to all this. Everyone is absolutely equal in death. So what makes anyone special at all? What's the point to any of us? Those very opinions whch could be reduced to nothing. The politics, ethics, morals, dreams, hopes, fears, all those things which could so easily mean nothing, they were the very things which made anyone and everyone worth something. Any person on this planet could be reponsible for the birth, in a thousand years or moe, of someone who might give us faster-than-light travel, global piece and wisdom, free energy, another Hitler, or something else. Any death prior to procreation alters that possibility. I realise I've digressed a bit here into some of my reasons why I dislike killing.

Anyway, so I figured out why we are all special, and why killing isn't necessarily so good even if it's easy. Destroying people and objects really is easy work. Living, however, is difficult in comparison. Realising what we are, or what we can be, and mastering it or at least learning to live with it, is a real bitch in comparison to simply being what we can be.

So I am in control. Even if I still sometimes watch the news and wait for the presenter to say "We are at war", and maybe wait for a phone call, and I wonder if I can still shoot as well as I used to, I do not at all crave these things. These things are the abyss of which Neitzche spoke.

You might say I have an absolute, black-and-white reason for requiring of myself, at least, civilised behaviour. There is an entire world of difference between civilisation and that abyss. It still scares the hell out of me. (You may recall in a thread about fear, I refused to name the one thing that scares me. Well, this is it.)

So, I well understand the notions of the inner animal and controlling it or co-existing with it, or the animal and human sides becoming one.
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I actually preferred "Red Dragon" to "Silence of the Lambs" when I first read it. i still do, but i havent read either for quite a while now. i might have to revisit.

ok im drunk so im going to ramble......
A fair few have told me that it is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. Now, we all take this (at least most do) as some form of truism.

However, by extension, then it would also be better to experience ANYTHING than to never experience at all. Is this correct? i mean, if the experience of love (and dont get sidetracked when i mention that word) is worth it, then is not ALL experience, by default? how can you comment on any one matter when you dont have experience of them all, at least for comparison purposes?

im not sure where im going with this yet. Basically, what stops us from experiencing all there is to experience is morality. ergo, some things (ie love) are ok to explore, while others are not.

from memory (i haven't read red dragon for a couple of years) the detective is very good at what he does because he can put himself in the shoes of the perpetrator.
This means he can IMAGINE, and therefore is very close to what makes the killer tick. Empathy. without actually being a perpetrator himself, he understands cruelty and a criminal mind, and this allows him to understand the criminal. What is it that separates him from the killer, if BOTH have the same imagination?

Adam has said that his training puts him in touch, or at least maed him think of what he was capable of, but he still wonders if he is TRULY capable of if it came down to it. I wonder the same thing. I live in the North West of Western Australia and i can bring down a roo with a rifle from quite some distance away. What separates us from a serial killer? Adam has the training and knows that he CAN... but he probably wont (unless ordered to... which may be a different story.)

What is the separator? what is it that makes one person stop at certain point and another capable of following through?

I'm not thinking this though properly yet, i've had too much to drink. Howveer, one thing grabs me...

Adam... I know that i would intervene, if i saw someone in the act of rape, murder, or theft. I've done it before (although not in such an extreme example). However, i have yet to fathom why i WOULD do so, or why i DO do so.. I simply dont know, and I've put a lot of thought into it. The same empathy that makes me intervene is what might stop you from pulling the trigger in a combat situation, or at least make you think twice.

Empathy is the word that we find in the dictionary for an action or lack thereof... but what CAUSES empathy?

BTW... Adam. i think i may have underestimated you in the past. my apologies.
 
Squid Vicious

Don't worry about it, happens all the time coz I like to talk crap.
 
Originally posted by Xev
For years I have struggled with my own innate viciousness. Certain human, all too human propensities towards cruelty. It was not the restraining them that hurts, it is the fear that I am only innately vicious - that I have no propensities towards compassion.

Nietzsche helps a little :)

"Of all evil I deem you capable: therefore I want the good from you. Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws. "

Is Harris right to say that the our knowledge of these urges is our saviour? That knowing that we have an innate cruelty vaccinates us from ever acting in a way that is cruel and vicious?

More to the point, is there a reason (other than, "Xev, you'll go to fucking prision") to restrain our vicious urges? I believe that true morality springs from innate decency, but I also know that innate cruelty exists.
Click to expand...

Perhaps the definition of "Good" and "Evil" has existed for far too long and seriously needs re-defining.

Or, if we did that, would we be merely giving ground to a new way of thinking which instead of being more correct, is merely more in keeping with social needs at this point in time?

damn... i need a better command of english. What i mean to say is... are we merely fitting definitions of "evil" and "good" to what we require at this point in time?
i know what you're saying Xev, and i agree with you regarding... I also believe that there is a core inside us, for whatever reason, which dictates our final views on morality. however, the question needs to be asked... ARE WE JUST MAKING IT UP AS WE GO ALONG BECAUSE IT SUITS OUR IDEALS?
 
Squid Vicious:
Perhaps the definition of "Good" and "Evil" has existed for far too long and seriously needs re- defining.
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I think we should maybe just throw the fucking thing out with the bathwater.

Or, if we did that, would we be merely giving ground to a new way of thinking which instead of being more correct, is merely more in keeping with social needs at this point in time?
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Yes, we obviously change our definition of good and evil to fit social needs. Now, we call slavery "evil and immoral"&#8224. But for most of our history, it was no big deal. Hell, slavery still exists throughout the world.

damn... i need a better command of english. What i mean to say is... are we merely fitting definitions of "evil" and "good" to what we require at this point in time?
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Yes, I think we are.

i know what you're saying Xev, and i agree with you regarding... I also believe that there is a core inside us, for whatever reason, which dictates our final views on morality. however, the question needs to be asked... ARE WE JUST MAKING IT UP AS WE GO ALONG BECAUSE IT SUITS OUR IDEALS?
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That's what scares me. I think my inner core is quite moral, but what if it's not?

What if I am innately sadistic only and just good at justifying my repression of my sadistic urges? And this scares me, because I am so used to doubting everything that I doubt this.

&#8224: To quote the wise philosopher who questioned what is is and brought an almost Foucaultian revolution into the definition of sex. :p
 
"For years I have struggled with my own innate viciousness. Certain human, all too human propensities towards cruelty. It was not the restraining them that hurts, it is the fear that I am only innately vicious - that I have no propensities towards compassion."

Pre-Nietzschean Xev did you fear the reprocussions of being innately vicious or the fact that you considered it bad (immoral, unethical..... choose a word) or were worried that maybe you consider it bad?


"Is Harris right to say that the our knowledge of these urges is our saviour? That knowing that we have an innate cruelty vaccinates us from ever acting in a way that is cruel and vicious?"

I don't believe Harris says that knowing ourselves saves us from doing something cruel. Your first sentance is more the intended point - that knowing these urges is a saviour....


"More to the point, is there a reason (other than, "Xev, you'll go to fucking prision") to restrain our vicious urges? I believe that true morality springs from innate decency, but I also know that innate cruelty exists."

Well there's always the fucking prison reason. Why else? Personal choice. Weigh the options. Logically choose (ignoring prison) if being vicious will benefit you more.


"Should we embrace it? Willingly adopt the beast? What is one to do with one's vicious urges?"

What do you do naturally? My vicious urges in real life I tend to explore and while exploring tend to find another way to let them out. Hockey helps!
 
Tyler:
Pre-Nietzschean Xev did you fear the reprocussions of being innately vicious or the fact that you considered it bad (immoral, unethical..... choose a word) or were worried that maybe you consider it bad?
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I - feared not the reprocussions. I can control myself quite well. I feared what this revealed about me. Zarathrusra calls it "the beast inside".

I know I have an innate cruelty. I also know that the thing that seperates me from the sadist is only the fact that I channel my cruelty.

Well there's always the fucking prison reason. Why else? Personal choice. Weigh the options. Logically choose (ignoring prison) if being vicious will benefit you more.
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Blind cruelty has gotten many a leader into trouble, but many have used cruelty per se to their advantage. So will embracing cruelty harm me? Not necessarily.
 
"I feared what this revealed about me."

Why?


"Blind cruelty has gotten many a leader into trouble, but many have used cruelty per se to their advantage. So will embracing cruelty harm me? Not necessarily."

What cruelty have you felt like exerting?
 
So will embracing cruelty harm me?
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Depends what you mean by harm. Does it hurt you do see pain and suffering. Does it weigh heavy on your heart? I once thought my purpose in life was violence that was all i was good at, for me I found it was a empty path that lead only to misery and pain(mine as well as others). It may of may not harm you depending on your defenition of harm and your paradigm. Harm you physicaly (some one stronger or with more advanced technology). Is it to use cruelty to control others so as to bend ther will to yours? Then what would you have but control. What worth would it be to control anothers will?
 
I know what you mean Xev. all too good.
go through this also.

Nietzsche is a good help also:)

I sorta embraced the beast lol
But I'm afraid that it cost me something
can't really describe- I lost some of my emotions, some others were trasnformed.
Emotional reaction to some was weakened to some it arose. I can not really describe why the particular ones.

for instance->
In high danger situations I act very calm. People always mock me that I don't understand the situation.

smtimes things which are important to the majority of others have no meaning to me. I've become colder.

Before I sorta embraced the beast I all the time hang out with girls, now I better enjoy me, myself, my pc and nature around me.
Other people have become more insignificant. I really have very very few close ppl. (damn- lost one this summmer:()

I've grown a lot more ironical and can really harm others with my tongue. Smtimes I even take pleasure in it (but I think that then the beast which is really a part of me takes over).

I duno...I'm cold and I have locked away from people.
don't really have a need for them anymore.
I don't know if it's bad or not, just weird.

smtimes I get amazed by smthing that others of my age don't care about?

or they think that I'm mad on excursions to go and sleep outside

and I've been really bad smtimes and just throwed off any girls who came closer...why? I duno myself. I remember I once just shouted to leave me alone...that time I was listening to Mike oldfield Tubular bells and watching the sun set in the sea...so romantic...but I said her to leave me alone. lol ... why? I duno myself

Anyways I love playing with my mind and I don't know where it will lead me...
...I don't know and I wish I could plan my mind ahead...It's very interesting, but smtimes very scary

this has all been extremely honest. I'm really honest on net lol
 
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Xev ...

"Should we embrace it?"
Not to do so would be irrational. Unfortunately, many people are
more willing to embrace myths: The basic 'goodness' of our nature
than the reality of our specie's behavior over the ages;

"Willingly adopt the beast?"
Willingly and joyfully ... 'And the truth shall set you free' - or some-
thing like that;

"What is one to do with one's vicious urges?"
When appropriate, control them. Otherwise, give free reign to them
and enjoy fully the satisfaction that comes with anhilating, figuratively
or literally, the bastard, the enemy, the other, the idiot.

For what it's worth.

Take care ;)
 
When appropriate, control them. Otherwise, give free reign to them
and enjoy fully the satisfaction that comes with anhilating, figuratively
or literally, the bastard, the enemy, the other, the idiot.
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insert voice from independence day
amen, father
 
Avatar:
Other people have become more insignificant. I really have very very few close ppl. (damn- lost one this summmer)
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Sorry.

I know exactly what you mean. I "connect" with very few people.

I duno...I'm cold and I have locked away from people.
don't really have a need for them anymore.
I don't know if it's bad or not, just weird.
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Odd, this to I understand. There was a time when I needed approval and affection, but this died in me, and I don't see most other people as anything but potential tools. I rarely even feel contempt now, as well.

You know "Untermensch" by Wumpscut? I don't feel this way much anymore.

But it's scary, sometimes the things that I feel, like the pure waves of agression that occasionally sweep over me.

And this shows. I can walk down the street in a certain mood and people will literally move out of my way. And the feeling that I can manipulate anyone into doing my bidding, as long as I have the will to understand their motivations.....

It frightens me. I think I know why I've spent so long trying to construct logical, ethical systems. Simply a way to keept the beast chained.

Chagur:

When appropriate, control them. Otherwise, give free reign to them
and enjoy fully the satisfaction that comes with anhilating, figuratively
or literally, the bastard, the enemy, the other, the idiot.
Click to expand...

Agreed, thanks.
 
you should take up politics, Xev:)

I could also, but I feel some kind of disgust to it
I understand that it's the ultimate control tool, but.....
there are things even more important- like myself
 
Avatar:

*Laughs*

An athiest with no money running for public office?

Besides, they would eat me alive if I did this. I think I am suited to politics, but more as a behind the scenes advisor. I'm more Walsingham than Elizabeth.
 
yes- money is the tricky part:(

duno- maybe I should try to get into politics also:D
nobody will care if I'm an atheist
so it's 1/2 easier than for you
 
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