Using the neighbour's wireless

[Syzygys]

My friend got lucky finally, because a new neighbour moved in with wireless access. She had dial-up until now and she didn't even use it that much, except for email.

So the question is, if I set her up with a wireless card, is there any way the neighbour noticing a very limited (let's say less than 1 hour per day) useage on their system? I assume the neighbour is not very computer literate, otherwise they wouldn't have an unsecure network.

 

[mountainhare]

They probably wouldn't notice. But what you're planning to do is theft. Someone near my town just got charged for theft of bandwidth.

 

[Syzygys]

Well, I might post one in the Morality section about the usage.

My approach is this: Nowadays if one is leaving his network unsecure he is asking for it. Also, it is not like my friend is going to download shitload of stuffs for hours. Oh yes, if they don't notice, it never happened...

Anyway, if we are already at the technicals, I assume there is no point in getting a card faster than the system broadcasting, correct?

 

[mountainhare]

So if you leave the door of your house unlocked, I'll just waltz in and steal your computer. And you won't press charges. Deal?

 

[Syzygys]

No, they could sit on my bench, if it is outside of my garden in the public place, for an hour then leave. It is a nice neighbourhood.

There is a difference though, they are invading MY space with their broadcast and not I am entering THEIR house.... Also I am not hacking into the system (that one I would consider stealing).

But again, I was asking about the technological aspect of it, not the moral one....

 

[Pronatalist]

"Theft of bandwidth" is such an uninformed distortion.

I watched some "Innovation" program I think it was, on PBS about the wonderous invention and improvement of fiber optics, the way much of the world is data-wired these days. A tiny fiber optic has the data capacity of a huge copper cable as wide as a person is tall. Don't they say that a fiber optic can transmit the data equivalent of the Library of Congress, in about 2 seconds? Somewhere in that program, it dawned on me, "Oh, that's why so many internet forums are FREE! Why I can talk to people clear around the world through my computer FOR FREE!

Most every highspeed internet connection is so incredibly fast, and the data transmitted such a small percentage of the time, that somebody wirelessly "piggybacking" on an internent connection, shouldn't be noticable at all, so how can it be "theft," especially on an unsecured wireless network connection? Aren't even cities starting to go wireless downtown or something?

About the only way to make the dubious claim of "theft of bandwidth" is to side with the greedy corporations that seem to think it their right to prevent the fiber optics being run into our homes, so they can rip us off with outdated "bandwidth" limiting, money-grubbing connections.

At my computer club, people all the time piggyback unsecured wireless internet signals in the building, and get on the internet with their laptops, truly wirelessly. My latest computer came with wireless built in, but unfortunately, I still haven't found a signal in my area.

With the incredible fiber optic technology, everybody should either get on the internet for nearly free, or else a "standard dial-up" connection should be fiber-optic fast. The greedy landline phone monopoly has been ripping us off long enough, with their 50 year old antiquated voice network, but a step above the old phone neighbor-shared "party" lines.

How can we more fight back against their retarding of the already available technology?

 

[Neildo]

The whole point of wireless networks is to link everyone together. If someone doesn't want their network used they can secure it with a password, simple as that.

- N

 

[Pronatalist]

Title: And the greedy phone corporations used to try to charge us, just for an extension phone on our lines too. As if they own, practically everything?

The whole point of wireless networks is to link everyone together. If someone doesn't want their network used they can secure it with a password, simple as that.

- N

And so when the guy has to subscribe to high-speed internet, he ends up on the same network, just on a different node?

So what's the difference, other than that people are having to pay more, and being the subjects of corporate fees, rather than simply connecting?

How is it, that most of the internet seems to be FREE, except for the last few feet to our homes, and then we have to pay a monthly fee for that? Seems a bit unbalanced to me.

If computer OSes were probably programmed, there wouldn't be any security risk to somebody else piggybacking a wireless internet connection. Data would simply flow to its proper destinations. Why does MyCrud$oft program so many hacker backdoor loopholes, for people's computers to get messed up? Security should be built into an OS, not a BTW afterthought.

 

[Stryder]

It's not so much about the theft of bandwidth that's not being used but a myriad of other reasons.

There connection might be through an ISP that has a bandwidth CAP, or uses a Variable bandwidth scheme where pricing is based upon it's usage.

What you choose to download online might be things that are illegal and bouncing through someone else's network gets someone else the blame for what ever it is you are doing.

I.e.
You download some porn, that porn just happens to be something nasty and the website you ripped it from happens to be under watch, next thing you know 3-4 people appear at your neighbours doorstep, one carrying a rather large black case. Within the hour, your neighbour is marched out accompanied by two of the people, a third is carrying their PC tower in a plastic bag and the forth is carrying the case along with another bag or copied CDs, Drives and a laptop.

They might not have anything to hide, the investigation might not turn up anything but that's when the system turns it's attention to 'who' got traced and the next thing you know, four people are turning up on your doorstep to talk to you about what type of internet access you have.

If you are going to use your neighbours bandwidth, you might as well go to them and ask them if you can, in exchange for bandwidth you could pay them a small amount or just show them how to secure the network so only yourself and they have access to it.

 

[draqon]

whaat? theft of bandwich?!!! no way...

 

[Pronatalist]

Title: BTW, how do we know that your internet usage is all on the up-and-up?

sarcastic against the government agents watching paranoia

It's not so much about the theft of bandwidth that's not being used but a myriad of other reasons.

There connection might be through an ISP that has a bandwidth CAP, or uses a Variable bandwidth scheme where pricing is based upon it's usage.

What you choose to download online might be things that are illegal and bouncing through someone else's network gets someone else the blame for what ever it is you are doing.

I.e.
You download some porn, that porn just happens to be something nasty and the website you ripped it from happens to be under watch, next thing you know 3-4 people appear at your neighbours doorstep, one carrying a rather large black case. Within the hour, your neighbour is marched out accompanied by two of the people, a third is carrying their PC tower in a plastic bag and the forth is carrying the case along with another bag or copied CDs, Drives and a laptop.

They might not have anything to hide, the investigation might not turn up anything but that's when the system turns it's attention to 'who' got traced and the next thing you know, four people are turning up on your doorstep to talk to you about what type of internet access you have.

If you are going to use your neighbours bandwidth, you might as well go to them and ask them if you can, in exchange for bandwidth you could pay them a small amount or just show them how to secure the network so only yourself and they have access to it.

So we want to make sure that the government secret police spying on us, turn up at the right door, to carry off the people who dare criticize the government on the internet? Is that something like what you are saying here?

We wouldn't want to make them look foolish when the turn up to kidnap us during the night, to make us "disappear?" Whatever for would we comply, all this again?

Pay my neighbor? Oh really? Does my computer tell me which neighbor I am getting the stray signal from, hypothetically? Are all of us so internet or neighborhood savvy, as to do this determination? Just now I checked my menu, and I see some wireless network name. Hmmm. I will have to recheck that again, to see if it keeps showing up. And conveniently, no neighbor name, nor no address. Maybe I should just knock on everybody's doors, and ask them the name of the network, so they can feel just as paranoid, as we will feel, when these mysterious people show up on our doorsteps? Do we really think that our mind-everybody's-business-but-their-own, liberal government, even has time to track all this stuff? I think not. Perhaps you have been watching too many scary action movies? Yeah, I have the "Enemy of the State" DVD too, and I think only some of what they showed, is even possible or likely. You have to admit, that most action movies, start with a rather unlikely scenario to begin with, otherwise the movie, and looking out your window at the world slowly going by, would be much the same—boring!

To "ask" permission to use public airwaves already pervading my own home, that's akin to "asking" if I may enter a door into a public place, that somebody is holding open for me. That would be like, almost rude to ask. Well duh, "Enter please, before I get tired of holding this door open for you? You got some kind of issue against me or something?" Do I "ask" the TV station if I may tune in their public airwaves transmission to the bunny ears on my digital reception HD TV? Do I "ask" somebody's permission to take a break and "steal" TV broadcast time, by going to the potty during the commercials that pay for it? Of course not. How would I even "ask?"

 

[Defiant]

What you choose to download online might be things that are illegal ...

That is a good point, but this just underlines the importance of securing one's network. And there is no excuse, anyone who is installing it should know the consequences for not doing so.

Going back to the neighbourhood, I think there are differences between living in an appartment complex and picking up 5 signals and living in a location where you can easily pinpoint the source of the broadcast.

If I had a neighbour who asked me if he could use my network for sporiadic usage, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But I certainly don't want to let a bunch of unkown living off of me.

Also another interesting situation: what if that neighbour happens to be a library/cafeteria with free public access? I guess it is OK to use their wireless. But we could look at neighbours not securing their network as someone who is acting as a library!!

 

[Repo Man]

I have to assume that anyone who hasn't bothered to use even the simplest password security for their wireless network wants to allow others to use it.

 

[Pronatalist]

Title: And should we also "ask" to pick up a penny off the street? Never know when the person who lost it, might show up to claim it?

I have to assume that anyone who hasn't bothered to use even the simplest password security for their wireless network wants to allow others to use it.

That's a distinct possibility.

Much of what I post on the internet I want to allow other people to use my ideas, trying reasonably to give me due credit, well unless I wouldn't want the credit, for some reason. That's probably why I posted it where the entire world could see it?

I once watched an entire movie in some electronics store. Should I have asked, since it was already playing? But then, I did buy the DVD later, so take that, you corporate "pirating" accusers so afraid to lose a possible imagination sale, that they are willing to offend and alienate their customers.

How about computer internet terminals in public places say like a store or a library? Don't dare touch, or the mean old teacher will come out with a ruler and wack your hand?

I host several forums on another server on the internet, and a newbie who happens across them, need not "ask" to either read or post. A few clicks to create a freebie account, and a-posting one can do. I have it standardly and minimally restricted, as I don't have the time for being some secret agent snoopy "ask me permission first" internet traffic cop.

And any time I let a family member or house guest use my computer, I created for them their own folder to store any of their files. And never deleted it, actually, although not used in years.

 

[Pronatalist]

Okay, I have another question. Not so much about whether using thy neighbor's wireless is moral or understandable, but what are the security concerns? A risky way to get a virus or something? Might connecting allow thy neighbor to get into your computer files?

And how many years longer until crappy old dial-up finally goes away as the "cheaper" basic option anyway? How many decades until the greedy phone monopoly or somebody runs the fiber optic data lines into our homes, so that we might finally catch up with the rest of the world, passing us by?

 

[Stryder]

Being on the same network does allow for certain types of spoofing, Heck you don't even know if the neighbour has left it open to honeypot people. They might have a server rigged up with a packet scanner just waiting for an insecure website to transfer your credit details.

If you complained someone accessed your bank and it's found it was your own fault for accessing someone else's network illegally, it's not just going to be the neighbour in trouble.

Btw people turning up on your doorstep don't make people disappear, they just take them down the station for questioning and whether or not they answer correctly decides if they are allowed to go home, get bailed or have to stay a couple of nights.

Also if you want to find out who's running a wireless, it doesn't cost much to pickup a wifi detector and you only have to squelch to find it's location much like we use to mess with people using Citizen Band Radio.

 

[Pronatalist]

Being on the same network does allow for certain types of spoofing, Heck you don't even know if the neighbour has left it open to honeypot people. They might have a server rigged up with a packet scanner just waiting for an insecure website to transfer your credit details.

Honeypot people? That's a new word I haven't heard before. But are all "privacy" issues really about evil neighbors doing everything they can to steal your credit card numbers? Better make sure you shred all your "sensitive" trash too, before you throw it out, of course, maybe if your neighbor has nothing better to do, he might be good at regluing together a million-piece puzzle? Maybe I should throw some cereal boxes in my shredder, for good measure?

Somehow, I find it hard to imagine, that my closest neighbors would want my credit card numbers. Rather, might some people just have "packet scanner" software or whatever, just to see what other people are looking at? Sort of like those people with police scanners, who know so much more about what goes on around their neighborhood maybe, than those who watch the TV news and read their newspapers religiously? Aren't some of these people "harmless" voyeurs, of a sort? And I supposed sometimes just watching other people, can be lots more interesting, than so much of the time-wasting crap they put on TV? That stuff is usually so fake, as to be stupid as well.

Just how private can we really be, if we have neighbors? How can we be sure, that our neighbors don't spy in our windows from far away, using a telescope or binoculars? Are you so sure that your neighbors don't have laser mics, to listen in on your telephone calls and private in-home conversations? BTW, how does a laser microphone really work? Is it like in the PS2 Splinter Cell game, when all I have to do is aim it at a window, and it measures distance so precisely, that it picks up the slightest window vibrations and converted them back into sound. Somehow I thought you had to do the mirror angle thing, for the pickup?, which they conveniently omitted from the game. Of course, if you have a cheap analog cordless phone, then aren't you really "asking" to have your phone calls easedropped upon? Better not order anything on the phone, with that credit card?

If you complained someone accessed your bank and it's found it was your own fault for accessing someone else's network illegally, it's not just going to be the neighbour in trouble.

Oh really? So what does the "law" have to say about that? Seems like piggybacking wireless network access, is just as rampant, if not more so, than the early typical "sharing" usage of Napster? And don't we, the people, have any claim of "ownership" to the public airwaves anymore?

Btw people turning up on your doorstep don't make people disappear, they just take them down the station for questioning and whether or not they answer correctly decides if they are allowed to go home, get bailed or have to stay a couple of nights.

Oh, you really believe that? Disappearing people only happens in "other" countries, while we have our corrupt "due process" to keep us safe? Well as long as we expect some "due process" that does help, but the media seems rather uninterested in being a very good watchdog at some of the government/corporate abuses.

But when Timothy McVey was executed, I wonder what secrets he knew, died with him? I am still not convinced he did it, and he may have been a handy "fall guy." There's a lot of conspiracy theories about some such incidents, that the government seems rather uninterested in giving any believable answer to. Oh that's it, he "disappeared" in plain sight, with a cover story. How convenient.

Also if you want to find out who's running a wireless, it doesn't cost much to pickup a wifi detector and you only have to squelch to find it's location much like we use to mess with people using Citizen Band Radio.

I wouldn't know where or why to buy such stuff. Most of us working poor, wouldn't buy a wireless netword device, unless we had to, to get our stuff working, would we? We aren't all electronics hobbists.

The one network that showed up on my Mac mini's wifi, had the most obvious password on it. "password" Maybe that's the default password, that the person didn't even bother to change? But I always still got an error and couldn't connect. Why? Low signal? Firewall? Incompatibility of some sort? Wrong configuration? And how do I know that I set my OS firewall correctly, BTW? Yeah, I have dial-up, because I don't want to tinker and experiment around too much with reconfiguring something already working, nor do I want to spend any more per month. Or should I just turn Airport off, to enhance my own security. But then I can't snoop so mildly, as to just see what network names might pop up, out of the air.

A related issue. How do I crack the password on a G3 Mac tower? Yes, I have permission and the person gave it to me. But he forgot his own password. Do I really have to somehow boot from an external hard drive, to gain access? None of my password guesses, yielded any fruit.

 

[Avatar]

Just go to the neighbour, explain the situation and that he hasn't secured the connection, offer to do it for him and maybe you can make a deal on mutual using of the connection.

 

[Orleander]

He's banned. Was it cuz of this illegal sounding thread?

 

[Repo Man]

He's banned. Was it cuz of this illegal sounding thread?

We may never know. I'm not disputing that Tiassa had a valid reason, but a more clear explanation of why he was banned might help others avoid bannable behavior. Or not.