U.S.S. Cole and Middle East

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Shadowflame, Nov 3, 2000.

  1. Shadowflame Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    77
    What are some people's opinion on the USS Cole incident, and the Middle East conflict in general. Who do you think should have the rights to the land, and are there any "good guys" so to speak? Should the U.S. be breathing down the neck of the two states, or should we intervene to prevent another World War? I'd be glad to hear some ideas.

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    Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music---George Carlin
     
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  3. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    As helpful as such a perspective isn't, the sooner the US and other nations drop their dependence on OPEC oil, it will be much easier to sit back and let the fanatics kill each other.

    I say let 'em.

    Religious wars, such as that motivating anti-Israeli, and, by many proxies, anti-American sentiment among Islamic extremists, cannot be solved at the negotiating table. The stakes transcend the end of the participant's life, so it is not of any use to settle the peace short of absolute victory.

    Given that consideration, I say let the situation get out of hand, just help everyone else out of the way.

    If you're a corporation that feels it's profitable to be there, go ahead. If you're dumb enough to work for these companies, you're stepping into a war zone, and subject to its arbitrary cruelty.

    But cut the pipeline, first, and then see how profitable it is to be there.

    And then we can let the people who want to fight just get it over with.

    It used to be a noble military death was to stand, teeth bared, facing the wind, the fire, and the incoming bullets.

    Now noble death seems to be not dying on the can because nobody knew the hit was coming.

    two cents, probably some change coming back

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  5. Shadowflame Registered Senior Member

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    Should we just let them simmer down? I don't think that the rest of the world is willing to let that happen. What if other countries get pulled into the mess? There could be another kind of World War. But then again, we'll probably station "peacekeeping" troops in all threatened cities, tensions will rise, someone will be lynched, and an uproar will arise. More troops will be called in, and the two groups will magically like each other again, from under the barrel of a gun. This won't work, and hatred will rise to whole new levels.

    But on the other hand, do we want to see people die? Do we want to have people, no matter how much they enjoy doing it, kill themselves in an attempt to kill others? It's a tough question, dealing with two groups which vehemently hate each other.

    "It used to be a noble military death was to stand, teeth bared, facing the wind, the fire, and the incoming bullets.

    Now noble death seems to be not dying on the can because nobody knew the hit was coming."

    Sorry, I didn't understand this part of the post. What were you trying to say again?

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  7. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    There used to be a valiant image of military death. You know, the wounded Union soldier grabbing the tattered Old Glory and charging the Grays in a desperate last gasp, only to be riddled with musket rounds, &c.

    Don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes, said the British. Incredibly polite, quite noble, and also stupid.

    But dying in the military isn't like that, these days. We lost Marines in Iran to a sandstorm. Marines in Beirut--212 of them--to a bomber in a pickup truck.

    "How did Billy die?"
    --Nobly, ma'am. He fought for his country until he was the last man standing, and he still did not give up.

    or ...

    "How did Billy die?"
    --Nobly, ma'am. He was taking a crap when a terrorist ran a rubber liferaft loaded with explosives into the hull of his boat.

    That's the difference. It's a little bitter, I admit, but warfare does little to bring out the best in me.

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    thanx,
    Tiassa

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    (I'll get back to the more important issues of your post & reply, I promise ...

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  8. Shadowflame Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    77
    Scary as it is, I must agree with some of your philosophies. I wonder how our current media would react if a real war broke out, with sizable casulties. I'd bet the press could make a sizable attack force. ONe of by favorite "Bloom County"'s comes to mind:

    Soldier--"Are you friend or foe?"
    Newsman--"Press!"
    BANG!

    And just to be nitpicky, I think it was the colonists who said "don's shoot until you see the whites of their eye's" in order to conserve ammo and get better shots.

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    Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music---George Carlin
     
  9. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,848
    Shadowflame--

    Actually, I believe you are correct about the Americans instead of the British.

    But I'm damn sure it was the British who said, "Hey! No fair! You're shooting at our officers!"

    (Sigh ... I miss Opus.) Incidentally, have you ever seen the painting Gesundheit? Berke Breathed included it in one or another Bloom County compilation. It was a 9th-grade art project of his, a painting of an astronaut in spacewalk. He had a difficult time getting the face right behind the shield, so he took a straw, sucked red tempera into it, and discharged the paint onto the painting over the face and helmet; the title seemed only fitting, then. (Yes, he got an F.)

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    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  10. Shadowflame Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    77
    Hilarious, I loved that strip. *looks about wistfully* well anyway *sniffle* it's gone now. Gesundieght, I remember that. I beleive his teachers words about it were "This is sick. You're gonna be rich." Seems like comics today are going down the drain, no one seems to be able to match the greatness of Calvin, the Far Side, and Bloom County(my top three). Hope someone else will pick up where they left off. *Sighhh*

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    Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music---George Carlin
     
  11. ozarky Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    96
    Do any of you believe that the Cole bombing, the election mess in Flordia, the the almost daily escalation of the Jews and Arabs fight and the trip to Moscow by Yasser Arafat to confer with the Prime Minister Putin, is all a part of a larger picture ? The coming of World War Three?
     
  12. Rocco Rosano Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1
    Re: USS Cole & Middle East

    et al,

    These are separate and distinct issues.

    The incident involving the attack on the USS Cole is an offensive attempt on the part of a Non-State player (most probably Osama bin Laden) to intimidate the American military. The successful attack does accomplish several things at once.

    1) It discourages the US military from using regional area ports for support; unless it is heavily protected. In effect, it strikes fear in the hearts of military leaders that another attack will be even more devastating.

    2) It demonstrates, without question, that the counterintelligence (CI) efforts on the part of the Departments of State and Defense are NOT capable of detecting, exploiting or neutralizing a terrorist threat in the region. (50 USC 401a)

    3) It demonstrates, without question, that a small terrorist cell, using unconventional warfare methodology, is very capable of engaging and defeating a numerically and fire power superior conventional weapons platform and win.

    These three elements, merged, send a message to those that are not aligned with the US that a successful war can be waged against the US with minimal casualties. That such skillfully planned attacks can outwit the CI/military intelligence projects within the region, on a regular basis.

    It is a very powerful marketing tool on which to build a recruitment program for all those that have a hatred for America.

    This is largely due, impart, to the total lack of oversight demonstrated by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (SCCI), and the bungling leadership of Senator Shelby (R-AL).

    The issue of Middle East diplomatic efforts to bring region stability is multi-facet. It has several dangerous components all in play at the same time. Needless to say, with the lack of technological development in terms of alternative energy sources, both fixed and portable, the US will have a long standing national interest in the region for many decades to come. This will earn us the wrath of many indigenous stakeholders, and will spawn more and more international threats; both to peace and commerce. The inability of the Department of State to develop and charismatically sell peace initiative will compound an already tense situation.

    Rocco Rosano
    Reynoldsburg, Ohio
    mailto:roccorosano@ameritech.net
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2001
  13. Bobby Lee member Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    143
    The Reply

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    It's my opinion that it was a decoy.
    Bio implementations in Use by Israel, and other nations.
    I think there are no good guys in killing.
    Something up in af/PKST/IRQ/??? watch close at Mr. S/H,
    He is behind many tensions. He has conspired causing problems in many places.
    The world is suffering birth pangs? The Terrorists are not interested so much in the Government, as they are the Prominent family(s) running the Gov., they have used the Genealogy forums for intelligence, and to obtain false identities or info! Prussian, Norman and GALL have also! There are others! Someone in the Arab Nations are active in the compromising of the currency system in the US with known ??. There are rats in OPEC., allowing goods sold in the name of IRQ people! We are moving to an one world Gov., and with this will come power struggles of might. Computers are allowing so much information that it has become our biggest obstl.

    Middle East;

    This is such a hot subject I hate to give my opinion!
    Keep the guard up in the middle East, changes soon.
    We are not exactly saints ourselves now are we. We can play the decoy game to? For now let them handle it, they get quite when they dont get much world attention!

    Better work on the anti-bio stuff! We will need it soon than you think.

    There are Skypeople visiting other than at!!
     
  14. Chagur .Seeker. Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,235
    Re. the USS Cole: Just another PC (Don't make them think we don't trust them), micro-managed (From Washington), lack of resources (No refueling tanker in the area) incident that points out once again how vulnerable we are to unconventional warfare (I'll be damned if I'll refer to it as terrorism) - A bit like the Brit's were back a couple of hundred years.

    Re. the Middle East: The one democratic country in the area, surrounded by enemies. Russian created a buffer zone with the Warsaw Pact, Israel doesn't have that option. Every aggressive act is at, or within, it's boarders. I have to wonder how much bias plays into Washington's unwillingness to support the State of Israel (our only, in my opinion, allie in the area) and how much 'We can't offend the Arabs - What would we do without their oil?' plays into it. Most likely both.
     
  15. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,616
    It always suprises me how Israel hits and hits hard when it strikes back. These people don't play around!

    Maybe we should be doing without the Arabs oil. Course the politicians would bear the brunt of the public ire should gas reach the unheard of price of $3-$4 per gallon. Washington is already up in arms over the gas prices now. Pressure from the "voters" has made political life uncomfortable for those in power.
     
  16. Chagur .Seeker. Registered Senior Member

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    2,235
     
  17. Funkynappyguy Registered Member

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    2
    hi, im a united states sailor. im 23 years old. The united states of america has alot of interests in many different parts of this world. many profitable interests. Any ways ,our military is there to ensure our interests. mostly for the highly honorable and admirable reason of making huge profits and controling local governments. so yea, it sucks that we where b0mbed and that sailors died. but while the high ups in washington goad and weep over those 17 dead sailors , remember that those 17 dead sailors where there because some group in our lovely country was greedy.. now i love my country and i love my freedom but i hate my government. call me a patriot cause i beleave in my constitution.
     
  18. Jagdwuf Registered Member

    Messages:
    10
    Hmm.....

    I read an article on this whole thing that sickend me.

    It stated that the bombing of the cole could have been prevented. The Sailors new what was going on and one man manned the M-60 near the front of the boat. His superior officer ordered him not to fire on the boat cbecause they are not otherized to shoot at them unless they are being attacked. So he had to sit there and watch his buddies be murder and all because of are wonderfull Clinton Administration.

    It seems to me if someone is trying to blow you to hell thats a good enough reason to shoot at them.

    I would have shot the boat to hell anyway. I may have been court martialed but that is just ridiculous.
     
  19. Chagur .Seeker. Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,235
    You're right, the bombing of the Cole could have been prevented.

    But apparently you haven't read the previous discussion, so I'll repeat myself: by refueling at sea. Unfortunately our navy has been cut back so far, and is spread so thin, that there was no refueling tanker in the area.
     
  20. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,616
    Lack of...

    Sometimes I have a hard time with this cut back stuff. I know mostly it is driven by the financials to a large extent. But I also wonder if this is not the setup for what is to come.

    What I mean is that soon the baby boomers will be retiring. And when they do they will leave quite a hole to fill. There will not be enough workers to fill the demand. So many companies will have to do without or figure ways around working with less people to get the job done.

    This could lead to some very interesting results. Things which are possible now but not practiced. Such as virtual employment. The true work at home. If you're a secretary this might be a blessing in disguise. No boss's groping hands, relief from the filing of files and find of those same files. No worry of rush hour coming home.
    Which aught to lower gas prices through less demand. It seems the more I go the more I find affected!
     

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