Trying to hard to believe

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by jayleew, Jan 31, 2013.

  1. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    And Paul never even mentions a resurrection...
     
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  3. arauca Banned Banned

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  5. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    Translation: Back in the good old days when women, blacks and queers knew their place! :bugeye:
     
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  7. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Charming... bigotry, ignorance, and anti-semitism all rolled into one naive package. Just like the time period you describe.
     
  8. Balerion Banned Banned

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    One more for the ignore list.
     
  9. Balerion Banned Banned

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    They're full of shit. No idea where some of these modern pictures of Jesus come from. He wouldn't be mad if you didn't believe in him? Since when?

    I think it's a dangerous game saying we should adopt Jesus' philosophy. His teachings were not moral, they were predicated on the assumptions that he was the son of God and that the end of the world was at hand. Most of what he says requires both of those things to be true for them to be considered good or wise. Giving no thought for the morrow only makes sense if there's no tomorrow to give a thought for. Turning the other cheek is only wise if there isn't a lifetime of torment to face as a result of your capitulation (ask any kid who has been bullied what turning the other cheek gets them).

    Most of what that clown said was flat-out wicked. There are better sources for morality than the Nazarene.
     
  10. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Christians in the Roman empire were persecuted, not exactly for their beliefs, which would have been acceptable to Rome, but for not going through the motions to acknowledge Roman Gods.
     
  11. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    So were the "negroes" or "colored people," as they were known in those days. When you're oppressed, you don't dare act proudly.

    That's the same thing the Nazis said.

    The reason the Jews were Europe's bankers is that the Christians were too stupid to translate the Torah correctly. They believed that God told them that loaning money at interest was a sin, so none of them were willing to do it. The Jews could all read the Torah (all male Jews are expected to be able to read and write in Hebrew) and they understood that the sin was usury (charging excessively high interest), not simply loaning money. So they loaned the Christians money and kept them from destroying their own economy out of religious ignorance. For their thanks they were persecuted.

    Persecuted people often resort to the entertainment industry because so many others are closed off to them. In the decades after slavery, when Afro-Americans were "free" but could still not get good jobs, many of them became musicians.

    Is that supposed to be a good thing??? My wife and I have many gay friends who suffered under that "closeting" in the 1950s. You're a real putz if you think that was good!

    Oh fuck off.

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    I was born in 1943. I observed all of this, but I was too young to try to change it. In the 1960s my generation rose up and started repairing all of these horrible conditions. Somehow we overlooked you. You should not have been allowed into our country.

    As I said, I was too young. But I did protest in the 1960s.

    I don't think you know anything about my country. I have no idea where you came from, but considering that you can't write an English sentence correctly you are obviously a foreigner.

    I think you meant "liar," not "lair." A lair is a cave where bears or wolves sleep. I hope some day you have enough money to take an English class.
     
  12. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    And not turning the other cheek is only wise if you want a lifetime of violence to face as the result of your violence.

    That night? And the next day? They get teased. It makes them feel bad.

    In 20 years? They live in a beachfront house in Northern California while the bully flips burgers in Burger King, in my experience. Not too bad a result.

    Sure are. There are also a whole lot of worse sources.
     
  13. arauca Banned Banned

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    Yes, exclude blacks . I always sympathized with them until I come to this country. In the old country my girlfriend was dark and we called her Negra
     
  14. arauca Banned Banned

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    Pal you are wrong once more , my father was raised as a Jew, Ignorant yes I am of many things , I hope some of your wisdom rubs of on me . Bigot , depend on what
     
  15. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Where does a lifetime of violence come into play? Ever heard of victory?

    In the PG-rated version of that after school special, sure. In reality, they get tormented until they do something to stop the bully from targeting them.

    Again, that's not usually the reality of the situation. Bully victims carry emotional scars for their whole lives, provided that they don't get a gun and kill their teachers and classmates. If bullying were just a little bit of sad time, as you seem to think, it wouldn't be a problem. But it is.

    As far as I can tell, no one is promoting those worse sources as a good guideline for life.
     
  16. jayleew Who Cares Valued Senior Member

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    Jan, you've taken everything I've said out of context from what I said. Every statement I made is meant to be interpreted as a whole.

    Personal feelings can, will, and do get in the way of a good decision. If you can't remove your God glasses for a moment then we have no common ground to communicate.

    We are not communicating, so I will try to break it down further so there hopefully isn't as much to be take out of context and therefore meaning lost. In a nutshell, I am saying that it is a simpler scenario to believe that the feats Jesus performed were exaggerated than to believe a supernatural force was involved because the Christians at the time had motive to fabricate the story.

    I'm not concluding that that is enough to say if it is true that Jesus performed supernatural feats or that it is not true, just that it is easier to believe, personal experience aside.

    If the events were exaggerated, then I have no reason to believe that anything I experience now is not simply the explanation that science gives. I simply lack the "burning bush" experience.

    After you have stepped back, then you can add your personal experience and that of other's into the equation to come to your own personal decision.

    Look at all the characters from the Bible: all the heroes. Most were normal folk lifted up out of their situation. Abraham did not even know God until God showed up. The same is true with Moses. They knew gods, but not God. All these normal, godless/false god people...yet God still communicated with them. Why don't we all have these personal experiences to draw belief from? What choice do I have other than to look at the events in the Bible and consider them mythical without personal experience?

    If I chose to believe them, then where do I draw the line with believing things without personal experience?
     
  17. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    By the way, the ultimate skeptics? Adam and Eve.
     
  18. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Jews control business? That's what bigots say.
     
  19. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Where physically? Israel and Palestine come to mine. Doesn't seem to have solved their problem. Is more violence the answer there?

    Yep. And ignoring them is a very good way to do that.

    Yes, they do. They also carry the emotional scars of failing at things they try, getting their hearts broken by their first love, not being popular . . . . we refer to these things as "experience." Someone who never experiences any of those things is somewhat handicapped, because they won't know how to deal with negative experiences later in their lives.

    It's what people take away from such experiences that are important. Some possible take aways:

    "There are bad people out there that I have to live with." - pretty good takeaway.
    "I stood up for myself and got a broken jaw. Should keep a lower profile." - not the best
    "I stood up for myself and gave that shit a concussion! No one better mess with me ever again." - bad

    Sometimes it is a lot of "sad time." How you react to that determines what kind of a person you are.

    Google "dianetics."
     
  20. Balerion Banned Banned

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    And submission by one or the other is a better solution?

    I'm not aware of any instances in which the bully cared whether or not their target was paying any attention to them. I do know of cases where punching the bully in the mouth solved the problem, however. Such as Casey, the Australian kid who got picked on relentlessly until he finally got fed up and slammed his tormentor. Guess who doesn't get picked on anymore?

    I even had a bullying problem in my early teen years. Walking home from school was a nightmare, until I nutted up and decked one of the punks who kept bothering me. I won't say I never had another problem in my academic career, but certainly never from those kids again.

    Oh, so you're one of those people who thinks depression is just a fancy word for sadness, and other such archaic and antiquated nonsense. The literature is out there for you to find if you're interested, but it can be summed up like this: disappointment and heartbreak is not the same as the emotional trauma that can result from being bullied.

    Are you going to include psychological trauma, or is that just hogwash in your uneducated and irrelevant opinion?

    You don't have to put up with a bully. You can put an end to it. Jerks and annoying people are different than people who actually harass you. You kind of have to live with the former, but allowing the latter to torment you is unhealthy.

    Should keep a lower profile? So your answer to bullying victims is to shut up and take it?

    What's wrong with that, exactly? Why is it wrong to take a stand for yourself?

    Sometimes it is a lot of "sad time." How you react to that determines what kind of a person you are.

    Scientology, while not without its dangers, is benign compared to the hokum found in Christianity, or any of the Abrahamic faiths for that matter. And what point are you making when you say Christianity "isn't the worst philosophy?" Plenty of bad ideas aren't the worst possible idea. How is that any defense?
     
  21. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    If it means peace? Yes.

    Hmm. Bullies aren't bullies because they are bent on world (or school) domination. They do it because they like the responses they get. Take away the responses they like - no more positive reinforcement of the bully's actions.

    Nope, it is often a medical condition.

    Ah, you are one of those people who cannot handle disagreement, and resort to attacks when you run out of rational arguments. Have a nice day; I hope no one punches you in the mouth to solve the problem.
     
  22. Balerion Banned Banned

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    You're going to have to explain that one. And why should one side value submission and the abandonment of their cause? What makes that a better option?

    See, this is why I said you don't know what you're talking about. The reinforcement bullies get from their actions doesn't come from the person being bullied, but from their peers.

    Something about a broken clock being right twice a day goes here...

    When someone says to me "Bullying victims should shut up about it," I find it hard to take them seriously. It's not a personal attack when it's simply acknowledging your display of ignorance.

    And don't think your fleeing takes place after being asked to get into the philosophy of your position; it's easy to make proclamations, but much more difficult to support them. At least for you, it seems.
     
  23. jayleew Who Cares Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, I agree. The walking on water and other extraordinary events most certainly would be worth mentioning. I'm thinking that no historian of the day could corroborate the story.

    Tacitus was 7 years old during these events (the 7 day fire and persecution of Christians and the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ) and wrote them down after he was governor of the province of Asia. He was a respected historian not quick to write hearsay and use reliable sources.
    Scholars generally consider Tacitus's reference to be genuine and of historical value as an independent Roman source about early Christianity that is in unison with other historical records.

    His references are corroborated by other historical documents.

    Scholars have also debated the issue of hearsay in the reference by Tacitus. Charles Guignebert argued that "So long as there is that possibility [that Tacitus is merely echoing what Christians themselves were saying], the passage remains quite worthless".[56] R. T. France states that the Tacitus passage is at best just Tacitus repeating what he had heard through Christians.[57] However, Paul R. Eddy has stated that as Rome's preeminent historian, Tacitus was generally known for checking his sources and was not in the habit of reporting gossip.[23] Biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman wrote: "Tacitus's report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, sometime during Tiberius's reign."[58]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ


    I agree that I don't have to be a Christian, but I try to act according to Christ's universal teachings. Why isn't that enough for my family? Or, why isn't enough for me to ignore their want for me to be a Christian? Right now, I am keeping the peace in the short term by being up front saying, "I don't believe. I will go to church when I feel like going." Their argument is if I don't seek out knowledge, then how will I ever find possibly a missing piece to God's existence from someone who is an authority on the subject of Christianity (Christians). So, they pray and toil for me to go and I go to keep appearances so they know that I am open minded. And, admittedly, sometimes I learn something about how to be a better person. Right now it is working fine.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2013

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