Trump Watch: The Conservative Condition

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Tiassa, Aug 10, 2022.

  1. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    I agree. Nevertheless, "social conservatism" is generally regarded as a prominent aspect of conservatism, generally, and right-wing politics.

    Who doesn't want that? Apart from wannabe tyrants, no one wants a government that does more than is necessary.

    There are undoubtedly some people who abuse the system, but I've never seen any evidence that suggests this is a widespread problem. It's just another variant of the "welfare queen" myth.

    Also, tangentially--and this is not what you are referring to, but it's not wholly unrelated--there are those who object to public financing for study of disciplines they deem to be worthless or non-essential. Like, for instance, literature, philosophy, art history, music, etc. Just because the potential societal benefits of a discipline are not readily and immediately apparent does not make a subject "non-essential."

    In my experience it's generally been the other way 'round: the most privileged, the born rich, are the ones most apt to have such a viewpoint. Of course, it seldom translates to their actual behavioral practices, but that's another matter.

    This is another myth for which I've yet to see any evidence, apart from anecdotal.

    And why is "growth" such a wonderful thing? This "growth" seems to be largely responsible for this fuck-storm state the planet is presently in, which--spoiler!--is only going to get much, much worse. Call me an optimist, but the only real "solution" I see is global adoption of antinatalism or abandoning the planet altogether (for "the stars," I guess).

    Going back a bit:
    This one has always been a bit problematic for me. I'm all for paid maternity/paternity leave and so forth, yet at the same time... "incentivizing" breeders is the last thing we should be doing. I'd rather people be "rewarded" for vasectomies and tubal sterilization.

    Actually it'd be hunter-gatherers. Agrarian cultures historically have been anything but egalitarian.

    You know what I'm talking about though. People who complain about "profanity" only ever do so because they've got their panties in a bunch and they can't address the actual matter at hand. We live in a country where you can't say "shit" or "fuck" on network television, but you can show all sorts and manners of carnage and extreme violence. That's beyond ridiculous.
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2022
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  3. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Regarding "growth" and also the anecdotal comments...

    The middle class gets taxed to death and gets little in return therefore most people are less idealistic as they mature. You disagree? Fine.

    I was speaking of growth in the economy and not population growth. A growing economy is just another way of saying a more productive and efficient economy. Which is another way of saying worrying about "the rich" is just scapegoating in most cases.

    Whether someone else has more money or not has nothing to do with anyone else as it didn't come at their expense. I have a house, a car, and some investments. If someone else doesn't have those things, what does that have to do with me?

    If I didn't have a house, car and investments, they still would be no better off. The focus should be on how to get everyone to get an education, learn to invest, do without or whatever. There is no point in worrying about how much money someone else has, what they spend it on or comparing it to how little someone else has.

    There will always be people with yachts and people who have little. One doesn't have anything to do with the other. You can say, take the one and give it to the other but that doesn't fix the problem or even work for long. It just kills incentives, shrinks the economy.

    If there are homeless on the streets it's because of drug addiction, mental illness, etc. It's not because someone else started a company, their stock value went up and now they are wealthy. If they had never started that company that wouldn't help anyone with drug addiction or mental illness.

    They aren't related. It's like blaming the "Jews" or the "Blacks" or "the rich". It's an excuse to not address the real underlying issue which is typically more complex to solve.

    There are always poor people so you can always say, why do you have a nice life while there are those who are hungry? That's just a cop-out. You can stay home from your next vacation and worry about the plight of the world but you haven't helped at all.

    Would it make any sense if I said, why are you treating your dogs so well in a world where there are plenty of children that are hungry? It's stupid, right?
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  5. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    "Less idealistic" can be either "less liberal" or "less conservative," and "less liberal" is what we are addressing. Regardless, there is no substantive evidence that people become "less liberal" as they mature.

    So was I. Henry Ford pays his workers more money so that they can afford to purchase his cars--more cars--and so forth. That is "economic growth" and that is one of the primary contributers to climate change and the holocene extinction.

    It's unclear to me how any of that relates specifically to anything that I said.

    Nor this, for that matter.

    Address what I wrote, not some confabulation on your part.

    Edit: The only part where I was addressing population was with the antinatalist stuff--and I was responding to what you had said about funding pre-kindergarten and whatnots. The relationship between economic growth and population growth is complex, obviously, but more pertinently, population growth accompanies both economic growth as well as stagnation, so... Kind of another matter altogether.
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2022
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  7. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    G-D it, why do you spend so much money on your F-ing dogs!

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    billvon likes this.
  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Sense and Tweetability

    Well, when you put it that way ....

    the Trump/DeSantis split is very interesting, it has shades of Bernie/Warren. DeSantis is seen as the pick of media dilettantes and think tank populists, but has few to no loyalists. Trump meanwhile, has people who will suicide attack FBI field offices

  9. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Unfortunately that's impossible.

    However I am all about meeting the most critical needs for the largest number of people for the least money. (i.e. a basic level of healthcare no matter what your ability to pay.) The problem I have in discussions with staunch conservatives is not that we disagree on details on how to do that - it's that they disagree it's a good thing to begin with. And that's a hurdle that's difficult to overcome. As a pundit said recently about COVID - "if we can't agree that you should care about people there's really no way I can convince you." (paraphrased)
    For me it's the most efficient use of the money we have. For many conservatives it's shutting down every part that they don't like, which they define as any part of the government that helps people they don't like. A conservative at a Trump rally summed this up very succinctly when she said that the biggest sin a conservative could commit was "not hurting the people he needs to be hurting."

    So if your definition of success is hurting the right people, it means shutting down the NEA because fuck those idiots. It's shutting down Amtrak because only loser libs take trains. It's shutting down the IRS because I hate their fucking guts and I would celebrate those assholes losing their jobs. It's shutting down Obamacare because Obama. And in their mind once they shut down all those things (but of course leave the roads and the military and the police and justice) then their tax bill will plummet and they will be rich.
    Not all of them. The obvious example is Liz Cheney. There are a great many others.
  10. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    Recognizing that everyone is better off when people are generally taken care of just doesn't seem like all that difficult concept to grasp (as I recall, that's one of the things Robert Fulghum learned in kindergarten). So is it due more to a lack of understanding, selfishness, or some weird sense of "principle" (as per Protestant "weirdness," for instance: Jesus wasn't exactly lazy, but neither was he all that industrious) and Horatio Alger bs?

    In decent fiction, a villain is typically a complex character with at least some redeeming qualities. It's just a bit more interesting that way. In the real world, we get Ted Cruz fist bumping over fucking over sick and injured veterans. It's kind of hard to believe that people like that actually have families. And also, again, the armed forces probably function better when they're taken care of.

    I respect Cheney for her work on the January 6 investigation and hearing, but in pretty much every other aspect, she's awful.

    To me, it just seems that the bar keeps getting lower and lower. Now it's like "opposition to armed insurrection and overt subversion of democratic process (unless it's gerrymandering, say)" is good enough.

    I've always conceded that there may well be some Republican mayor, say, in Bumblefuck, Wherever, who somehow has hasn't read a newspaper or the internet in decades, but on the national stage? I juts don't see it.
  11. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

    First doubtful he existed IF IF IF he did then he most definitely WAS lazy

    Snap your fingers, cure all disease, provide for everyone's needs and not doing so= extremely lazy

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  12. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    The difference is that Cheney believes in a GOP that doesn't say certain things out loud. She needs the catastrophe to come by accident, as if she never could have known how badly things would go, because then she can blame conservative failures on liberals. The actual difference between Liz Cheney and Trumpists is that Trumpists keep saying it out loud.

    American conservatives have always been vicious supremacists; the racism and sexism are part of the American tradition they seek to conserve. It's one thing if she's smart enough to know she cannot succeed on the maga path, but that doesn't mean she isn't dangerous.
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  13. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

    I have to disagree. You are painting ALL conservatives with too wide of a brush.
  14. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    Why do you spend so much time not bothering to address anything that somebody actually wrote? It's not just me you do this with--you pretty much do this with anyone and everyone you're addressing.
  15. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

    Yeah, they do (although maybe that comes down to what one deems necessary for a government to do). For example, I don't think it is necessary for a government to provide a universal social healthcare system, but I very much want my government to (continue to) provide such.
  16. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    dressed as chinese club members walking around where the secret documents are kept by trump

    "where trump visits" lol

    where trump keeps his private stash of top secret nuclear weapons documents
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2022
  17. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    What could I possibly not have addressed at this point?
  18. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Trumpster filo-fax (TrumpoFile)
    checking his top security briefing notes

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  19. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    You said that the public owns everything, in your opinion, other than your toothbrush and underwear. I disagreed and spoke of my house, car, and investments and pointed out that "the public" isn't the reason that I have those things or that those things exist.

    You seem to not be in favor of a growing economy due to climatic factors. I'm not for going back to a subsistence economy just based on climatic issues.

    You spoke of Henry Ford paying his workers more so that they could buy more cars. That's neither here nor there (it's not true either). The number of cars his workers bought would be statistically insignificant but it's not on point anyway.

    You certainly can't be wanting to debate the difference between "less idealistic" vs "less liberal" so what is it that I'm not addressing and what is your real point or viewpoint where you feel there is disagreement?

    I'm not going to defend any Republican actions so that's not relevant here so what is it? I don't think you are going to get agreement from most quarters regarding your comment that the public owns everything other than your toothbrush and underwear.
  20. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    Do you understand hyperbole?

    And? Where exactly did I suggest that "the public" is the reason you have a car? And how is it that "the public" is not the reason that a car "exists"? Are you saying that you created your car all on your own?

    Rather, I suggested that "economic growth," from the Industrial Revolution onwards, is one of the primary contributors to climate change. If you don't know how to paraphrase, you really need to directly quote people. I think you've been given this advice before from other posters.

    Also, until you understand what I actually said, try not to make any presumptions about what I do or do not "favor", please.

    OK. Not sure how exactly you (specifically, I guess--I mean, that is what you said) would go about doing that anyways, but whatever.

    That's not what I said. Again, if you don't know how to paraphrase, stick with direct quotes.

    "On point" ??? And who said anything about the "number of cars his workers bought"?

    Well, which did you mean? Are you saying that people become "less liberal" or "less idealistic" as they mature? Do you have any evidence to support either claim, or are we just supposed to take your word for it?

    What is what?

    Again, do you understand hyperbole?
  21. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    I think you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. You don't really seem to have a point to make. If you do have one, please make it.

    For someone who finds me hard to understand without proper "quoting" you sure seem to have a hard time getting your point out.

    Yes, I understand "tooth brush and underwear" isn't literal yet you need for me to quote everything before you can understand it? You don't mean tooth brush and underwear, you mean ...what? The government should own most of production? All of production? Why be so cryptic?
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2022
  22. Neddy Bate Valued Senior Member

    People like to argue.
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  23. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    I was pretty psyched about Cheney's potential presidential run, until I learned that Ed Gein's corpse is also contemplating a presidential run. He's also opposed to armed insurrection--so, good enough, I guess?

    Ed Gein's Corpse 2024: "I will make you a lamp shade!"

    Alright, I'll stop now.

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