Trump 2.0

[TheVat]

This is what distinguishes Israelis from others - that they are one people, one family. And they perceive the pain of each of their compatriots as their own personal tragedy.

27% of Israel population is Arab or other non-Jewish ethnicity. Get your facts checked before posting, tovaritch. Or I will have to stop picturing you as a dark-haired Lara Antipova.

 

[TheVat]

Having virtually no natural resources, but having excellent human resources, they were able to create a strong, developed state in just a few decades in the middle of the desert, thanks to their unity, their intelligence, and their hard work.

And enormous support from Britain, USA, and other powerful nations, including tens of billions of dollars, in both cash and weapons. Do you think it's possible that the people around Israel hate them because they moved onto the lands of Palestinian Arabs without respecting their right to keep living there and in fact violently drove out 750,000 of them in the first Naqba of 1948? I don't know about you, but if that happened to my friends and family, I might start to think the Zionist Israelis really didn't want to live in peace with me. Gosh, I might even view that Naqba as ethnic cleansing.

 

[parmalee]

What would you say if it was your daughter, your mother, your sister, your wife who was captured, raped by all of Hamas, mocked, had her fingers cut off, her eyes gouged out, her arms and legs twisted, and then they sent you a video of all this mockery?

And what about this kid from Gaza, a double amputee--did she deserve this?

 

[ольга]

And what about this kid from Gaza, a double amputee--did she deserve this?

У меня не открывается видео. Но в трагедии этой девочки виноваты не израильтяне, а террористы ХАМАС.

 

[ольга]

And enormous support from Britain, USA, and other powerful nations, including tens of billions of dollars, in both cash and weapons. Do you think it's possible that the people around Israel hate them because they moved onto the lands of Palestinian Arabs without respecting their right to keep living there and in fact violently drove out 750,000 of them in the first Naqba of 1948? I don't know about you, but if that happened to my friends and family, I might start to think the Zionist Israelis really didn't want to live in peace with me. Gosh, I might even view that Naqba as ethnic cleansing.

Для того, чтобы заручиться чьей нибудь поддержкой, нужно эту поддержку заслужить. Не всякому будут давать миллиарды долларов. Значит, спонсоры увидели в Израиле потенциал. И это тем показательней, что потенциал заключается не в природных богатствах, и не в выгодном географическом положении, а в человеческом потенциале. Это только подтверждает мои слова.

 

[ольга]

27% of Israel population is Arab or other non-Jewish ethnicity. Get your facts checked before posting, tovaritch. Or I will have to stop picturing you as a dark-haired Lara Antipova.

"Товарищи" в этом вопросе поют по одной с вами методичке.

Вы можете представлять меня хоть в роли Гитлера, Пиночета, или Лесного Чудища - это не заставит меня "петь под чью то дудку", у меня всегда будет своё собственное мнение.

 

[ольга]

It doesn't distinguish them at all. Yes, they suffered an horrendous terrorist attack. That does not give them the right to commit genocide. And that is what they appear to have embarked upon.

The Israelis have suffered maybe 2,000 deaths, so that gives them the right to kill maybe 7x that number of children???
What would you say if it was your daughter, your son, who was killed by Israel. What would you do? Innocent children.
What would you say if it was your father, your mother, innocent of anything Hamas have done, that are killed by Israel? And if your partner was killed by Israel, yet innocent of anything Hamas had done? What would you do?

So a terrorist organisation in your country kills some people elsewhere, and you think it okay for that targetted country to retaliate and slaughter, murder, kill, thousands upon thousands of children, and many times that of other people of your country?
I get the outrage they're experiencing, but not the actions they're taking.

Everyone has the right to condemn them. Ever heard of the expression "two wrongs do not make a right"?
There's no issue with being outraged about what happened to them on 7 Oct 2023. I am. But murdering c.40k+ civilians (thus far), of which c.10k+ are children (thus far), is worthy of condemnation. Don't be mistaken: that is what they are doing. It is murder. Find the Hamas terrorists, deal with them. It doesn't require the slaughter of innocents to do that.

I would suggest that you also read up on the history of that region. Because the actions of Israel, in that context, are not motivated by the act on 7 Oct 2023 but by their history with Palestine. And that day was just an excuse to do what they have long sought. But regardless of motivation, it doesn't make their actions right, moral, ethical, acceptable... unless you are someone who thinks genocide is acceptable?

Саркус, не надо пытаться выглядеть святее Папы Римского. Если сейчас поставить вас перед выбором: спасти собственного ребёнка, или 7 000 детей арабских террористов - что то мне подсказывает, что спасать вы будете своего. И ещё: Газа - не Америка. Это крошечная территория, где все всё знают. И даже тот, кто сам не террорист, тот знает, где находятся террористы, и чем они занимаются. Если вы позволите террористам жить у вас в подвале, и собирать там бомбу, то не удивляйтесь, что завтра вас разбомбят вместе с вашими "подвальными друзьями". Именно это и произошло. И вина за гибель женщин, детей, и стариков в Газе, лежит не на Израиле, а на тех, кто позволил поселиться у себя террористам.

 

[TheVat]

"Товарищи" в этом вопросе поют по одной с вами методичке.

Вы можете представлять меня хоть в роли Гитлера, Пиночета, или Лесного Чудища - это не заставит меня "петь под чью то дудку", у меня всегда будет своё собственное мнение.

You have an opinion which seems to be unresponsive to the facts presented to you. So much of what you say on this topic does not fit with the facts about Israeli history or it's demographics. I really don't have time to address them, so I will move on. While remaining curious as to what is your source of Zionist propaganda.

 

[ольга]

You have an opinion which seems to be unresponsive to the facts presented to you. So much of what you say on this topic does not fit with the facts about Israeli history or it's demographics. I really don't have time to address them, so I will move on. While remaining curious as to what is your source of Zionist propaganda.

Это не пропаганда. Это непредвзятый взгляд со стороны. В отличии от вас, кстати.

 

[parmalee]

This is not propaganda. This is an unbiased view from the outside. Unlike you, by the way.

How are you any less biased than anyone else here?

 

[parmalee]

Was it Israel that first attacked civilians...

Adult male Israelis are actually military reservists--up into their 40s or 50s iirc. All Israelis--male and female--are conscripted at 18 and serve for 2 to 2 1/2 years, and then the males become reservists (unless they continue to serve). So it is technically not accurate to describe them as "civilians".

 

[ольга]

How are you any less biased than anyone else here?

Потому что я "человек со стороны". А большинство здесь присутствующих готовы отнести к злодеям любого, кто скажет хорошо о Трампе, или хорошо о тех, кто нравится Трампу. У вас нет полутонов - либо чёрное(если это касается Трампа), либо белое(если это против Трампа). А в жизни так не бывает - и у друзей не всё прекрасно, и у врагов не всё ужасно. Я вообще склонна учиться всему полезному, даже у врагов. Отвергать всё по умолчанию - плохая идея.

 

[parmalee]

Because I am an "outsider". And most of those present here are ready to classify as villains anyone who says good things about Trump, or good things about those who Trump likes. You have no half-tones - either black (if it concerns Trump), or white (if it is against Trump). And in life it does not happen like that - and not everything is great with friends, and not everything is terrible with enemies. In general, I am inclined to learn everything useful, even from enemies. Rejecting everything by default is a bad idea.

What does Israel have to do with Trump? 7 October (2023) precedes Trump' second regime. And any opinions one is apt to hold on Bibi's and Israel's actions here have very little to do with Trump.

 

[ольга]

What does Israel have to do with Trump? 7 October (2023) precedes Trump' second regime. And any opinions one is apt to hold on Bibi's and Israel's actions here have very little to do with Trump.

Трамп всегда хорошо отзывался об Израиле. А вы придерживаетесь принципа: друг моего врага - мой враг. А мне, как человеку со стороны, безразличен ваш Трамп.

 

[parmalee]

Trump has always spoken well of Israel. And you adhere to the principle: a friend of my enemy is my enemy. And I, as an outsider, am indifferent to your Trump.

No one gives a shit about Trump's views on Israel. He likes whoever kisses his ass or gives him what he wants. And it changes on a daily basis.

Moreover, many/most people's views regarding Israel long predate Trump. They've been an apartheid state as long as I've been alive.

 

[Sarkus]

Sarkus, don't try to look holier than the Pope. If you were given a choice now: to save your own child, or 7,000 children of Arab terrorists - something tells me that you will save yours. And one more thing: Gaza is not America. It is a tiny territory where everyone knows everything. And even those who are not terrorists themselves know where the terrorists are and what they are doing. If you allow terrorists to live in your basement and assemble a bomb there, then don't be surprised if tomorrow you and your "basement friends" are bombed. That is exactly what happened. And the blame for the deaths of women, children, and old people in Gaza lies not with Israel, but with those who allowed terrorists to live in their country.

I'm not trying to look holier than anyone. I'm simply expressing disgust and disapproval of the way Israel have gone about trying to deal with Hamas, in that their actions have resulted in 14k+ children and over 50k+ total civilian casualties. Sure, I would protect my own child, but I would not go out and kill 7,000 innocent children on the off-chance that one of them may end up growing up to be become a terrorist and end up killing my child. That's not the way decent people think. Otherwise you'd just slaughter everyone on the planet on the same rationale. Why stop at 7,000 children? Why not all of them? Why just that country? Why not all of them? It's a ridicuous argument for most people.

So, by your own rationale, Ukrainians have the right to go and slaughter all the children in Russia? They were invaded by Russia, and civilians, including chidren, have been killed. And you think that gives the Ukraine the right to go and kill Russian civilians, children, elderly, to bomb Russian hospitals, on the off-chance that one of those might grow up to be a Russian who kills more Ukrainians?

Further, you know full well that the destruction of Gaza is far more than just targetting those who might be harbouring terrorists. It is near absolute. The total destruction of the area. Deliberately. It is the removal of Palestinians from the area. It is ethnic cleansing.

There were ways to achieve their aims, if it was the removal of Hamas, than the tota destruction of the Palestinian areas, and the killing of 50k+ civilians of which over 14k+ children. But the killing, the genocide, the erasure of Palestines from their homeland, is what they wanted.

 

[ольга]

I'm not trying to look holier than anyone. I'm simply expressing disgust and disapproval of the way Israel have gone about trying to deal with Hamas, in that their actions have resulted in 14k+ children and over 50k+ total civilian casualties. Sure, I would protect my own child, but I would not go out and kill 7,000 innocent children on the off-chance that one of them may end up growing up to be become a terrorist and end up killing my child. That's not the way decent people think. Otherwise you'd just slaughter everyone on the planet on the same rationale. Why stop at 7,000 children? Why not all of them? Why just that country? Why not all of them? It's a ridicuous argument for most people.

So, by your own rationale, Ukrainians have the right to go and slaughter all the children in Russia? They were invaded by Russia, and civilians, including chidren, have been killed. And you think that gives the Ukraine the right to go and kill Russian civilians, children, elderly, to bomb Russian hospitals, on the off-chance that one of those might grow up to be a Russian who kills more Ukrainians?

Further, you know full well that the destruction of Gaza is far more than just targetting those who might be harbouring terrorists. It is near absolute. The total destruction of the area. Deliberately. It is the removal of Palestinians from the area. It is ethnic cleansing.

There were ways to achieve their aims, if it was the removal of Hamas, than the tota destruction of the Palestinian areas, and the killing of 50k+ civilians of which over 14k+ children. But the killing, the genocide, the erasure of Palestines from their homeland, is what they wanted.

В этом мире действует, и всегда действовало только одно право - право сильного. Кто может уничтожить своих врагов - тот уничтожает их. С Россией было бы то же самое - если бы её враги могли, то уже давно разорвали бы её на части.

 

[gmilam]

In this world, there is and always has been only one law - the law of the strong. He who can destroy his enemies - destroys them. It would be the same with Russia - if its enemies could, they would have torn it apart long ago.

And you have the nerve to preach to us about god and love.

 

[James R]

It would be the same with Russia - if its enemies could, they would have torn it apart long ago.

I can understand that due to the oppressive state-controlled media in Russia, many Russian people might be under the false impression that "the West" considers Russia an enemy and wants to destroy it.

All dictators are paranoid, because they do not rule by consent of the people. They rule by force. Most dictators are ultimately overthrown by their own people. So, dictators always need to create the illusion of outside threats and give the impression that only they are equipped to deal with those threats.

The reality is that the Russian people's only real enemy is the Russian regime. You don't have to look back very far to recall a time when Russia's leaders were willing to engage with other free nations, rather than make themselves pariahs in the free world. That was a time of great optimism, both in Russia and in the West. The hope was that Russia would join with nations who respect democracy and the rule of law.

When Russia finally rids itself of its current dictator, Western nations will be ready, once again, to welcome Russia back into the free world. The West knows how to wait it out. We had a lot of practice of that in the 20th century. Nobody in the West wants to tear Russia apart. Even the Ukrainians don't want that.

We are aware that a nation's government and its people are not one and the same.

Fortunately, there are plenty of people in the world who do not believe in the "law of the strong". It serves dictators well if you believe that. Dictators fall when the people realise that the people are more powerful than their leaders.

 

[TheVat]

And you have the nerve to preach to us about god and love.

Game, set, match.

And I still don't understand Olga's assertion that the facts of civilian mass murder and ethnic cleansing are "bias" and spin. The evidence is unequivocal that Gaza is mostly demolished, half the population now physically in the starvation stages, half of hospitals destroyed, and fifty thousand civilians killed by direct effects of war. Even the Right Wing Likudists now openly acknowledge these as facts. AFAICT the only thing disputed is the moral basis for such conduct of war. And the core moral argument from Olga seems to be: Israel is strong, has lots of bombs, Jews are super awesome, so let them displace or kill whoever gets in the way of their expansion, and if anyone fights back then call them wicked terrorists and kill them and all their children and demolish their homeland.