Torture
- Thread starter duendy
- Start date
you're trying to confuse me, aren't you?
by useful, i mean if it benefits the government, the military, or whatsuch. like to pump information from a POW about important troop movements or suchthings.
by torture for recreation, i mean crazy-ass people who do it for...recreation or fun. Like the nazis, the french government, and the KGB. those nutters.
by useful, i mean if it benefits the government, the military, or whatsuch. like to pump information from a POW about important troop movements or suchthings.
by torture for recreation, i mean crazy-ass people who do it for...recreation or fun. Like the nazis, the french government, and the KGB. those nutters.
they nazis no longer exist as a powerful political entity. and you do agree that they were nutters?
The KGB no longer exists, since the USSR collapsed.
but, anyway. i agree with the authority when they do it for reasons of national security. if i have a choice, i wont physically participate.
The KGB no longer exists, since the USSR collapsed.
but, anyway. i agree with the authority when they do it for reasons of national security. if i have a choice, i wont physically participate.
You know what's torture? Reading this bonfire of the inanities.
On topic -
http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/relaged/970108prisonexp.html
Inspired by Milgram's obediance experiments.
I could be cliched and cite 'Eichmann in Jerusalem' but there you go.
"When they come for you, you'll physically participate."
In post-Patriot Act America, physical participation chooses you.
On topic -
http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/relaged/970108prisonexp.html
Inspired by Milgram's obediance experiments.
I could be cliched and cite 'Eichmann in Jerusalem' but there you go.
"When they come for you, you'll physically participate."
In post-Patriot Act America, physical participation chooses you.
Let's get deeper into this issue instead of shooting biased opinions back and forth.
I think most of us can agree that torture is wrong, no matter what circumstance. But in the context that it's usually used, morality and humanity are not popular ideas. War, for example (which is the cause of most torture that we hear about) is not concerned with any individual's life or well-being. They determine land disputes and large-scale domestic security and national policies and probably other things. The actual causes aren't important here, except that they are BIG agendas, concerned with millions of people's lives. A person in the military is part of this agenda, fighting to achieve the nation's goals. In most cases, these agendas are idealized to all but those in the highest ranks, so many don't see the evils they are perpetrating.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, in times of war, people become more deluded, machine-like and easily controlled, because they trust their superiors and are loyal to their homeland. Even obvious evils like torture become much more likely, because people are already so dehumanized and desinsitized. Even outside of war, that's part of the military experience.
All of this doesn't justify torture, but it helps to explain why so many people can be duped into following orders to enact it.
I think most of us can agree that torture is wrong, no matter what circumstance. But in the context that it's usually used, morality and humanity are not popular ideas. War, for example (which is the cause of most torture that we hear about) is not concerned with any individual's life or well-being. They determine land disputes and large-scale domestic security and national policies and probably other things. The actual causes aren't important here, except that they are BIG agendas, concerned with millions of people's lives. A person in the military is part of this agenda, fighting to achieve the nation's goals. In most cases, these agendas are idealized to all but those in the highest ranks, so many don't see the evils they are perpetrating.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, in times of war, people become more deluded, machine-like and easily controlled, because they trust their superiors and are loyal to their homeland. Even obvious evils like torture become much more likely, because people are already so dehumanized and desinsitized. Even outside of war, that's part of the military experience.
All of this doesn't justify torture, but it helps to explain why so many people can be duped into following orders to enact it.
Dano9700 said:
So if an al-Queda terrorist is caught and says he's just hidden a deadly virus and a nuclear dirty bomb in New York City somewhere, none of us would torture him to try to discover the location in order to save millions of innocent lives? Most of us actually agree that that torture is wrong? Really?
Dano9700 said:
So it's always "evils" that a nation is "perpetrating"? Why do you say that?
Baron Max
Baron Max...woulda LOVEd to have seen you on this programme i watched last night, which i had taped.
it was about 7 volunteers a mixture of ages, and white and Middle Eastern. They'd volunteered to take part on a simulated edxperience of what detainees go through in Guantanemo Bay!
apart from the Middles Easterers who had taken part to see and show what people like themselves are having to go through without even being charged with any offence!!!
The white people there--apart from one, were SO like you.
Well, dude, you should have seen what went on--and as you can imagine, they could do EXACTLY what goes on. the oldest--49 a few hours into the experiment became seriously hypthermc, puked etc and had to plead to be let out of th experiemnt. afterwards all his views had totally changed.......!
same with ALL the other whites. one said that what was being done to those people (and these people had only had to endure 37 hourse...not weeks, months, years)..would surely make them go crazy
what you do Baron is you justify all that evil, byt hysterically pinpointing one dramtic case. you are willing to dehumanize yourself and others for some bogyman.
and before you come back with some more torture-loving rhetoric Baron Max, answer me this simple question:
would YOU be prepared to volunteer for such as i have described above?
it was about 7 volunteers a mixture of ages, and white and Middle Eastern. They'd volunteered to take part on a simulated edxperience of what detainees go through in Guantanemo Bay!
apart from the Middles Easterers who had taken part to see and show what people like themselves are having to go through without even being charged with any offence!!!
The white people there--apart from one, were SO like you.
Well, dude, you should have seen what went on--and as you can imagine, they could do EXACTLY what goes on. the oldest--49 a few hours into the experiment became seriously hypthermc, puked etc and had to plead to be let out of th experiemnt. afterwards all his views had totally changed.......!
same with ALL the other whites. one said that what was being done to those people (and these people had only had to endure 37 hourse...not weeks, months, years)..would surely make them go crazy
what you do Baron is you justify all that evil, byt hysterically pinpointing one dramtic case. you are willing to dehumanize yourself and others for some bogyman.
and before you come back with some more torture-loving rhetoric Baron Max, answer me this simple question:
would YOU be prepared to volunteer for such as i have described above?
Torturers and supporters of torture always cite an example like this. oddly enough, there has never been a real ase where it has happened. Someone who is willing to risk their life would almost certainly not succumb to torture in the time available if at all. Other techniques- moral persuasion for one- might work better.Baron Max said:
duendy said:
But ye're doing exactly the same thing in the reverse ....ye're making a statement of absolutes ...I simply tried to point out that absolutes are not so simple as you make them out to be.
Absolutes are for philosophical discussions only and seldom occur in the real world of life, love and liberty. There's a difference and those who refuse to accept that are simply refusing to accept human nature. Oh, sure, for a silly, inconclusive philosophical discussion, but...?
Baron Max
Thersites said:
So if it "almost" wouldn't work, you wouldn't even try? Is your "almost" that good? ...that absolute?
Thersites said:
Well, when the "opposition" cites an absolute as he did, I tried to show that absolutes aren't always so simple. That was a good example ....and one that no one has refuted to this point.
Thersites said:
So therefore, there never will be such a case????
Thersites said:
And they "might" not!
See? Absolutes, either for or against, are nothing more than philosophical points of discussion, not for the real world of human endeavors, of human life. And to ignore human nature is to make those philosophical discussions nothing but idle pipe-dreams of Utopia and such. Worthless except for the fun of discussion.
Baron Max
Compared with other techniques which have been shown to wotk better [as in produce more reliable information more often], yes.Baron Max said:
You also asserted a [hypothetical] absolute. Even further removed from reality.
Pretty good evidence against it. If something has never happened it is likely that it won't happen in the iommediate future.
Again; past experience shows that they do.
The problem with your hypothesis is that you are ignoring human nature. The kind of people who would do that kind of thing tend to be blinkered, bigotted and fanatical with a desire for death. Just the people- apart from the ethics- that wouldn't mind being tortured
Baron Max, you have dodged the main question i asked you previously. I explained that i have recently seen a documentary where a group of volunteers many having exactly the same views as yourself about justification for torture TOTALLY CHANGED their views after the suffered just THIRTY SEVEN HOURS of a simulated version of what the people currently being held ILLEGALLY are going through for YEARS.
so i ask again. would YOU volunteer?
so i ask again. would YOU volunteer?
Duendy, my volunteering to be tortured has nothing to do with my views of torture. What kind of sick question is that? ...and more to the point, what possible good would it do one way or the other?
My main point is that absolutes are simply not justifiable in this world. You might think so, but an absolute can be refuted with just one simple example ...which I think I did, even if it was a highly unlikely scenario. In that regard, torture, like most anything else, can be justified in SOME cases. Therefore, to say torture is NEVER justified is erroneous, wrong!
Baron Max
My main point is that absolutes are simply not justifiable in this world. You might think so, but an absolute can be refuted with just one simple example ...which I think I did, even if it was a highly unlikely scenario. In that regard, torture, like most anything else, can be justified in SOME cases. Therefore, to say torture is NEVER justified is erroneous, wrong!
Baron Max