Time is NOT the 4th dimension...

[BdS]

Yea, right I get it and ovens speed up time, I suppose.

Sort of, after all leaving food out in higher temperatures will cause them to spoil faster. But, in the case of the oven heating things quickly at higher than natural low induced Earth temperatures has a different affect on the atoms / molecules.

You explain the different effects to me? I bet you cant...

Does temperature affect atomic clocks?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_clock

Currently, the most accurate atomic clocks first cool the atoms to near absolute zero temperature by slowing them with lasers and probing them in atomic fountains in a microwave-filled cavity. An example of this is the NIST-F1 atomic clock, the U.S. national primary time and frequency standard.

The accuracy of an atomic clock depends on two factors. The first factor is temperature of the sample atoms—colder atoms move much more slowly, allowing longer probe times. The second factor is the frequency and intrinsic width of the electronic transition. Higher frequencies and narrow lines increase the precision.

"colder atoms move much more slowly, allowing longer probe times." You see how temperature aging is affecting the atoms? allowing longer probe times can be directly related to the "slowed" aging of the cold atoms.

 

[Cheezle]

Sort of, after all leaving food out in higher temperatures will cause them to spoil faster. But, in the case of the oven heating things quickly at higher than natural low induced Earth temperatures has a different affect on the atoms / molecules.

You explain the different effects to me? I bet you cant...

Does temperature affect atomic clocks?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_clock


"colder atoms move much more slowly, allowing longer probe times." You see how temperature aging is affecting the atoms? allowing longer probe times can be directly related to the "slowed" aging of the cold atoms.

It is best to not confuse a clock's period or frequency with time. For instance an electronic crystal clock will change frequency with change in temperature. The physics of this frequency change with temperature has little to do with space-time. For instance the angle at which a crystal is cut has a large effect on how it's frequency changes with time. The formulas don't look like space-time. Looking at the graphs of crystals they appear to follow some cubic formula while space-time is quadratic. When you cool down a piece of meat the time experienced by the piece of meat is not what causes it not to rot. I believe it is the kinetic energy of the atoms that is that cause. Einstein showed that time and velocity are related, and we know that temperature is somewhat related to the velocity of atoms, but at temperatures of 0 deg K to room temp the effects would be negligible. If temperature caused time to act like you claim, it would have been discovered a couple hundred years ago. This idea that "time line slows on the atomic scale, but remains constant on the cosmic scale" is wrong. It does not make sense and goes against measurements.

 

[origin]

Sort of, after all leaving food out in higher temperatures will cause them to spoil faster. But, in the case of the oven heating things quickly at higher than natural low induced Earth temperatures has a different affect on the atoms / molecules.

You explain the different effects to me? I bet you cant...

Wow. Ok, my incredulity has decreased to the level that I can respond. If you think food spoils faster at room temperature than it does in a refrigerator due to time dilation then it may in fact be that I cannot explain this to you , but I will try.

First, food is 'spoiled' by microbes. In other words spoilage is a metabolic process. Little critters are eating the food and they eat more and reproduce faster at warmer temperatures. For instance if I take a steak, seal it in an air tight container and irradiate it with x-rays then you could store that steak at room temperature. You could open the container a month later and cook up the steak and have grand old meal. The reason that works is because you have killed the microbes that live on and in the meat that cause the spoilage.
If you put a steak in the refrigerator is last longer before 'spoiling' because the metobolic processes of the microbes has been slowed.
So the temperature has no affect on time just on the metobolic rate of the microbes that spoil the food.


As far as cooking food here is the skinny on meat for instance:

Meat is animal muscle, 75% of which is water. The rest is protein (about 20%) and fat (5%), as well as small amounts of carbohydrates, acids and minerals.

So what happens when a piece of raw meat goes on a hot frying pan?

The protein molecules are in bonded coils, but as heat is applied the bonds break and the coils start to unwind.
Meanwhile much of the water content in the muscle fibres leaches out – that’s why your fillet steak or chicken breast is smaller after cooking than when it is raw.
If it’s red meat (lamb, beef) it begins to turn brown as the myoglobin reacts to the heat. Similar to haemoglobin, myoglobin is a protein that stores oxygen in red blood cells. Heat triggers iron atom oxidation. The iron atoms in the protein lose an electron and this gradually changes the colour from red to brown.
White meat (chicken, turkey) has far less myoglobin, so it is pink when raw and turns white when cooked.

Source.

If you want some more information on what is happening when you cook food just Google "chemical reactions cooking".

 

[BdS]

It is best to not confuse a clock's period or frequency with time.

Well you better inform the time keepers that the whole of time dilation is a pipe dream then...

When you cool down a piece of meat the time experienced by the piece of meat is not what causes it not to rot. I believe it is the kinetic energy of the atoms that is that cause.

The decrease in motion or kinetic energy... wow lol!

This idea that "time line slows on the atomic scale, but remains constant on the cosmic scale"

What I was implying was that time for the frozen object is passing slower than the rest of the things at normal temperature. the wording came out a bit wrong. Ok, lets follow logic... If atomic clocks measure time dilation by a change of frequency caused by speed and gravitational potential... whats the difference if temperature changes the atomic clocks frequency? Nothing! they both affecting the rate of time.

 

[Maxila]

Hi Maxilla.



I note that your long standing observations about the real nature of 'time' (as motion-comparison based 'concept' and 'measurement' etc) remain un-refuted (I note especially that any attempts to do so by others have been essentially based on philosophical 'notions'-----like "arrow of time" and "time keeps things from happening all at once" etc etc-------all of which are easily shown to be nothing more than expedient/convenient mind-spun "conceptual fairy tales" when examined closely).

Kudos, mate!

Thank's for the kind comments, I did want to mention that the "arrow of time", which is based on the laws of thermodynamics and entropy, does in fact support time as an incremental measurement of motion. While energy/matter can be reversed in motion (seemingly reversing time), it would cost additional energy and increase entropy. The only possible exception I thought of would be in some proposed big bounce type theory's, being that gravity would eventually reduce entropy of the Universe if it were to re-condense. I'm not supporting such a theory, and I know about the accelerating expansion, I'm just pointing out possible a exception to my comment.

Also the statement "time keeps things from happening all at once" is answered in time being a measurement of incremental motion because a change of position (motion) on it's own physically has a natural sequence, incremental measurements of that sequence (time) is only a descriptive means to help you define, communicate, and compare the relative motions of energy/matter, which all move in space (i.e. space-time). When you examine the causality of motion you see energy is the only cause, time is an effect (a description of the effect), and space is a venue (another description not cause).

 

[Maxila]

Time and energy are fundamentally linked by the Uncertainty Principle, as $$ \Delta E \Delta t \approx 1 $$.
This says that the more you know about the energy of some 'system of particles', the less you can know about how long they've been 'interacting' with each other and their environment.

Even this principal fits the idea that time is an incremental measurement of motion. As a motion takes place in space the more narrowly you define a particles position to a point in space the less information you have to determine its magnitude of position change and vector(s), and of course the opposite, the more you know about its magnitude of position change and vector(s), the less you can define it being in any specific point of space.

 

[BdS]

In other words spoilage is a metabolic process.

A metabolic process like aging?

Little critters are eating the food and they eat more and reproduce faster at warmer temperatures.

They go into cryostasis thingy when cooled? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryopreservation

If you put a steak in the refrigerator is last longer before 'spoiling' because the metobolic processes of the microbes has been slowed.

Really? how were the metabolic processes of the microbes slowed?

So the temperature has no affect on time just on the metobolic rate of the microbes that spoil the food.

lol, yes the aging.

but as heat is applied the bonds break

Ok, I'll give you that one... but, that was supplied by google of course...

 

[Maxila]

The good thing is both you and undefined understand what that means. Posterity and all ....

I've explained it in another post. Whether you call it an incremental measurement of motion, an oscillation, a frequency, a duration, a period (of time), etc. Empirically it is merely a starting point and ending point of a change in position and its magnitude (commonly thought of as motion), i.e., an Earth rotation or orbit, the frequency or "periods" used to define the second in a cesium clock, the pendulum of a grandfather clock, etc. etc. etc.... The "time associated with each is all merely a starting point and ending point of a motion. Examine the empirical reference to where a period of time is associated and you'll see it is two points (a starting and ending point of a motion), or as I said an incremental measurement of motion (a change of position).

 

[Maxila]

Come on origin ".....freezers slow down time EXPERIENCED by dead shrimp ...." Get it straight.

Freezers slow the motions that are necessary for the shrimp to decay and thereby extend the "duration" the shrimp can be stored before spoiling. Again either duration is simply a starting and ending point of the underlying motions that are the cause of the change, the duration and decay is an effect that can be measured as an increment of those motions (a starting point and ending point), which are relative to some other motions such as a clock, or our own metabolisms and brain functions, etc.

 

[origin]

A metabolic process like aging?

They go into cryostasis thingy when cooled? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryopreservation

Really? how were the metabolic processes of the microbes slowed?

lol, yes the aging.

Ok, I'll give you that one... but, that was supplied by google of course...

Opps! I had not read enough of your posts to realize that you just take a contrary position and have no interest in learning anything. To each his own - enjoy.:shrug:

 

[brucep]

Freezers slow the motions that are necessary for the shrimp to decay and thereby extend the "duration" the shrimp can be stored before spoiling. Again either duration is simply a starting and ending point of the underlying motions that are the cause of the change, the duration and decay is an effect that can be measured as an increment of those motions (a starting point and ending point), which are relative to some other motions such as a clock, or our own metabolisms and brain functions, etc.

It's fun reading all the reasons why folks want to relegate 'time' to non natural phenomena status.

 

[Maxila]

It's fun reading all the reasons why folks want to relegate 'time' to non natural phenomena status.

Because empirical evidence is clear and it is the default foundation for explaining phenomena using a credible scientific methodology. Only if every possible empirical explanation is exhausted should one admit defeat and explain a phenomena in what is tantamount to saying "it's magic" and defies any scientific explanation. We should not be so quick to abandon scientific reasoning in favor of voodoo reasoning simply because it's convenient to what we believe we already know; otherwise we'd still be using Newtons equations of motion and gravity and explaining their anomalies to experimental evidence as mystical forces too.

 

[river]

Originally Posted by river
Yes there would

Again, if time did not exist, there would not be any change, either macro, or micro, and as dictated by the arrows of time, especially the thermodynamic and cosmological.

Let me put it another way

Time is not a physical thing , time has no efficacy within its self

Changing time in an equation will NOT change the physical movements of any object

Therefore what time is , the essence of time , is OUR ability to Measure this movement , in the sub-atomic and Macro , thats all time is

Now is there time , yes , of course , or duration

But time is not the same kind of dimension as physical objects have , since it lacks any ability to change anything at all , it again has no efficacy

Therefore time is not a real solid dimension , just a mathematical dimension used to help understand objects movements , why objects move the way the do

Example

I have a stop watch , when I push the button on the stop watch and tell you to run 100yrds , if you Don't run or move at all , the stop watch still runs but can't Force you to run

 

[paddoboy]

Time is as much a dimension as is length breadth and height

An object exists...It has length, breadth and height...It also exists in time.

If time wasn't real, we would have time dilation as has been validated many times.

If time didn't exist, when I look at Alpha Centauri tonight, I would be seeing it tonight, not 4.5 years ago.
Time exists...Live with it.

 

[river]

Time is as much a dimension as is length breadth and height

An object exists...It has length, breadth and height...It also exists in time.

If time wasn't real, we would have time dilation as has been validated many times.

If time didn't exist, when I look at Alpha Centauri tonight, I would be seeing it tonight, not 4.5 years ago.
Time exists...Live with it.

Inotherwords you didn't understand what I said

Read again

 

[paddoboy]

Inotherwords you didn't understand what I said

Read again

No understood fully....

 

[river]

No understood fully....

Then read it again until you do

Then make a comment

 

[paddoboy]

Then read it again until you do

Then make a comment

Others have made sufficient comment both on time and yourself.

 

[river]

Others have made sufficient comment both on time and yourself.

So you can't understand what I said

 

[Maxila]

Let me put it another way

Time is not a physical thing , time has no efficacy within its self

I agree it is clearly not a physical thing; rather it describes or defines (as a unit measurement) the physical thing, which is the change in position of energy-matter. That description is simply a starting point and ending point of a change of position in space and its relative magnitude within a distance.

“Changing time in an equation will NOT change the physical movements of any object”

If the equation represents empirical things the reference to a time change must represent movement of them; even if you only consider a macro view such as the position of a rock relative an inertial observer. You have to consider where any duration reference is attributable, a clock, the observers feeling of duration? For the clock it very functions is counting consistent increments of motion as time units; for the observer his metabolic functions and brain waves (those motions) were the duration.

Again considering only the macro view, the only thing that did not move was the rock, however without another reference to something that experiences motion there is no way to attribute an empirical duration to the rock not changing position. Please show me if you can describe an empirical reference of a duration that is void of motion.

Of course at the micro level there are all kinds of motions going on in that rock which cause it to change “slowly” or “quickly” relative to other motions in the universe.