There's no "Human Evolution," only PRE-human evolution!

But then "change" is evolution, though a specific form of change(alleles). To talk about "evolution" in this sense seems to me to be comparable to talk about weather change. Of course there is differences in number of surviving offspring - off course the weather changes? Or is there something I missed?
You have missed nothing, but you don't appear to have understood it.
The changes in weather lead us to an understanding of climate. Together this allows us to understand the mechanisms that control weather and climate.
The changes in allele frequency lead us to an understanding of speciation and to the emergence of a complex biosphere. It is the very heart of biology.
 
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During the almost two hundred thousand years we have been Homo Sapiens, anthropologists have been unable to demonstrate any significant further biological evolution.

So, why confuse the issue and claim "human evolution" when the evolution only evolved apes to us and we are not and have not evolved biologically?

How about Sherpas?
 
seems to me they are like the indians of Bolivia who also live at high altitude and who acquire barrel chest lungs early in life to cope with the thin air.

Such little changes among various ethnic groups, even if some of it did happen to be genetic would not alter the over-all picture. It would not explain the rise and fall of civilizations nor the accumulation of the human cultural/science/technological heritage.

charles
http://atheistic-science.com
 
Such little changes among various ethnic groups, even if some of it did happen to be genetic would not alter the over-all picture. It would not explain the rise and fall of civilizations nor the accumulation of the human cultural/science/technological heritage.
The changes are genetic. There are many other genetic changes that have occured over the past ten thousand to one hundred thousand years. This is very well established. You can choose to be ignorant of that if you wish.

No one - apart from yourself - is claiming that the rise of civilisation, etc is a specific consequence of specific genetic changes. You have erected this strawman and have attacked it for your own reasons.

The consensus view is that the evolution of modern man, with the capacity for culture, set our species on the road where civilisation and all its attributes and aspects grew within that culture - where culture relates in particular to the extra-genetic transmission of knowledge and behaviour.
 
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During the almost two hundred thousand years we have been Homo Sapiens, anthropologists have been unable to demonstrate any significant further biological evolution.

So, why confuse the issue and claim "human evolution" when the evolution only evolved apes to us and we are not and have not evolved biologically?

In being objective in science it is important to ues terms in precise ways. Why should words be used to claim something that the anthropologists cannot demonstrate?

Oh, yes, they did conclude we are a little smaller in statue and our brain case is a triffle smaller, but if we count that, we imply that it explains "human progress" and it certianly does not, does it?


Its time to concentrate on social evolution to explain what is going on and quit fiddling around grasping for biological evolutionary straws that don't exist.

Why can't social theorists explain it without coming up with four to eight different conflicting theories?

charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com

life: purposed to continue (see instinct)

conscious life: creating words

mass is defining itself

pinnacle of evolution: mass/energy comprehending its existence

think of words like fractals to existence as the word is created by living mass within existence

food for fun ;)
 
TO OP: "So, why confuse the issue and claim "human evolution" when the evolution only evolved apes to us and we are not and have not evolved biologically?"

We have evolved biologically. Look at the DNA data that has been collected. They dont teach it in school because people wouldnt like each other anymore. Blood-type data is region specific. As in A, B, AB or O. As well as Rh + or -. Look into the Diego blood type. Beyond this are races of people. Look around, everyone is different. We have evolved INDIVIDUALLY through genetics. Do some research bro and answer your own question. I promise you will find that we are evolving. Antibodies to fight infections...

We are evolving faster than you may think.

However, your point is that there arent HUGE and visual evolutionary jumps occuring. That is a product of the environment, bro. Life has been quite steady since weve been around. There is the occasional ice age and famine, but humans are built a certain way. Look at Da Vinci's depiction of man as a creation of God. We are built to master the universe, and because of such, there isnt much need to change.

We arent going to grow tails or 3 eyes because there is no need. What is demanded of us in this life? To use our brains within society to help others and provide for ourselves. This will probably lead to psychological evolution. Our kids are going to brilliant. Ever see Children of the Damned? :)
 
The changes are genetic. There are many other genetic changes that have occured over the past ten thousand to one hundred thousand years. This is very well established. You can choose to be ignorant of that if you wish.

No one - apart from yourself - is claiming that the rise of civilisation, etc is a specific consequence of specific genetic changes. You have erected this strawman and have attacked it for your own reasons.

The consensus view is that the evolution of modern man, with the capacity for culture, set our species on the road where civilisation and all its attributes and aspects grew within that culture - where culture relates in particular to the extra-genetic transmission of knowledge and behaviour.
Your irritable comments seem to be to the effect that genetic evolution started us "on the road" to culture and civilization. What is this "road to" explanation mean?

Apparently you do agree with me that civilization is NOT caused by genetic evolution during the last 40,000 years or so. Does that mean you have no explanation for what is causing our cultural change or believe that there is no evolutionary social cause and effect involved either---or that there is no cause and effect process to explain it at all---that it is uncaused?

If genetic evolution is still going on during the last some 40,000 years and yet is not the cause of our rise to civilization, it raises the question of why you attach any significance to it. It is irrelevant. What is of real importance is what IS causing the growth of culture.

Personally, I think people 40,000 years ago were for all practical purposes the same biological beings we are now and that non-biological or social evolution has had to be the cause of the change. Don't you?:shrug:

charles
http://atheistic-science.com
 
....... genetic evolution started us "on the road" to culture and civilization. What is this "road to" explanation mean?
The 'road' is the behavioural pathway from a lifestyle akin to other primates such as the chimpanzee to today's complex, global civilisation.
Evolution provided the means for these behavioural changes to occur. For example, without the structural changes to our larynx and the neurological changes in our brain, a complex spoken language would not be possible. Without such lanaguage the efficient transmission of experience and knowledge from individual to individual, and generation to generation, would not have been possible.
Thus our cultural evolution only became possible because of our preceeding genetic evolution.
Apparently you do agree with me that civilization is NOT caused by genetic evolution during the last 40,000 years or so.
Correct.
Does that mean you have no explanation for what is causing our cultural change or believe that there is no evolutionary social cause and effect involved either---or that there is no cause and effect process to explain it at all---that it is uncaused?
As previously noted, the evolution of abilities such as language skills and complex tool making, perhaps complemented by environmental changes, provided the basis and the impetus for a progressive deepening and broadening of knowledge and skill sets embedded in the culture. (Humans, empowered by their genetic heritage became the first animals to have an efficient means of converting tacit knowledge to explicit knowledge.)
This is a cumulative and accelerating process.
If genetic evolution is still going on during the last some 40,000 years and yet is not the cause of our rise to civilization, it raises the question of why you attach any significance to it.
Charles, you made the statement (it's in the title) There's no human evolution only pre-human evolution.
The statement is wrong. W R O N G. You say this isn't significant. I'm not arguing about the significance of the evolution, only correcting your blatantly false statement. (I could readily point out that this evolution is sure as hell significant to someone with sickle cell anemia.)
Personally, I think people 40,000 years ago were for all practical purposes the same biological beings we are now and that non-biological or social evolution has had to be the cause of the change. Don't you?:shrug:
Yes. So why don't you focus on discussing that instead of making utterly false and inaccurate statements. If you want to make a thread titled "Most if not all human evolution over the past 40,000 years has had no significant influence on the emergence of complex culture and civilisation." then I would be in complete agreement. But that is not what you chose to do.
 
What's most interesting to me is that we're becoming able to make choices about our own evolution. See: idiocracy
 
We evolve all the time

I guess the concept of evolving needs to be looked at a little closer. What, precisely, do the folks arguing about our evolution think the upper limit is for 'evolving'?

I mean, what would it be reasonable to expect in the way of change? Will our ears turn into wings? What?

And then there is the question of why. Why would they do that?

I suppose it could be argued that we would evolve in a way that makes it easier for us to survive, as in less or more 'gravity', less or more oxygen, etc.

But isn't our survival dependent on the efficacy of our minds, on the accuracy of our knowledge? As such, couldn't it be argued that we evolve constantly as we identify the truth about existence? And if our identifications result in our survival, well, what more could we want?

Just wondering.
 
Your irritable comments seem to be to the effect that genetic evolution started us "on the road" to culture and civilization. What is this "road to" explanation mean?

Apparently you do agree with me that civilization is NOT caused by genetic evolution during the last 40,000 years or so. Does that mean you have no explanation for what is causing our cultural change or believe that there is no evolutionary social cause and effect involved either---or that there is no cause and effect process to explain it at all---that it is uncaused?

If genetic evolution is still going on during the last some 40,000 years and yet is not the cause of our rise to civilization, it raises the question of why you attach any significance to it. It is irrelevant. What is of real importance is what IS causing the growth of culture.

Personally, I think people 40,000 years ago were for all practical purposes the same biological beings we are now and that non-biological or social evolution has had to be the cause of the change. Don't you?:shrug:

charles
http://atheistic-science.com

When I browse through these threads, and this happens to be one I stopped on, I see the same arguments over and over. It is wishfull thinking to assume we, like every other organism, has simply evolved, and all that is left to ponder is this endless debate concerning silly things such as our social evolution. The truth is before us, but our pride in ourselves will invent anything other than looking at the obvious. The only creature on the Planet that stands out as not really fitting in is Humankind. Though we have adapted quite nicely, we ultimately are out of step, so the questions are never ending, while the deepest answers ultimately elude us. Simply: we were a separate creation. Again, we will eventually destroy the entire natural theory because we are out of step with true nature, and we always will be. It does not matter what culture ultimately will be responsible for the final death blow sometime in the future, it is what it is. Gloomy? In a natural way, the ultimate in gloom. I'm almost sorry I do not subscribe to the strict evolutionary theory. It would be so neat and optimistic.
 
What, precisely, do the folks arguing about our evolution think the upper limit is for 'evolving'?.
The use of the word 'upper' implies that you think organisms evolve in a direction and that there are advanced organisms that are somehow better than primitive organisms. Such concepts have no place in a discussion on evolution, so this question is irrelevant.

I mean, what would it be reasonable to expect in the way of change? Will our ears turn into wings? What?.
We cannot readily predict major changes that might require tens of millions of years to evolve. We can say that ears into wings is unlikely. So far no winged animal has evolved a wing from their ears.

And then there is the question of why. Why would they do that?
They would do that for two reasons: a) a series of changes, brought about by mutations, would provide a competitive advantage in a particular environment. b) the environment would change over time in a way that favoured evolution of the feature affected by the mutation.
But isn't our survival dependent on the efficacy of our minds, on the accuracy of our knowledge? As such, couldn't it be argued that we evolve constantly as we identify the truth about existence? And if our identifications result in our survival, well, what more could we want?
You are confusing cultural evolution with biological evolution.
 
If you want to make a thread titled "Most if not all human evolution over the past 40,000 years has had no significant influence on the emergence of complex culture and civilisation." then I would be in complete agreement. But that is not what you chose to do.
All this time we have been arguing over nothing. You agree our "progress" was not genetic since about 40,000 and I agree that my title was misleading.

What changes there are might be epigenetic.

charles
http://atheistic-science.com
 
All this time we have been arguing over nothing.
No charles, we were arguing over your abyssmally poor choice of title and your blatant inability to perceive how wrong it was as evidenced by your savaging of Hercules Rockefeller's excellent rebuttal of your poorly thought out post.

You referred earlier to my 'irritable comments'. Rest assured I do indeed become irritated by sloppy phrasing, poorly presented arguments and basic lack of comprehension when it comes from someone who should know better.

If you find the previous two paragraphs offensive or offending......tough. Write in a clear, distinct manner - as I am sure you can - and you will not have to endure such responses. If you do not find the paragraphs offensive, you should do.
 
No charles, we were arguing over your abyssmally poor choice of title and your blatant inability to perceive how wrong it was as evidenced by your savaging of Hercules Rockefeller's excellent rebuttal of your poorly thought out post.

You referred earlier to my 'irritable comments'. Rest assured I do indeed become irritated by sloppy phrasing, poorly presented arguments and basic lack of comprehension when it comes from someone who should know better.

If you find the previous two paragraphs offensive or offending......tough. Write in a clear, distinct manner - as I am sure you can - and you will not have to endure such responses. If you do not find the paragraphs offensive, you should do.
You know, you are really weird! All you seem able to do is create a tirade and leash an unending diatribe of abuse. I am getting bored with it and give up expecting something intelligent and civil out of you.

Have fun, but sad to say I won't bother to be hear to see it.
 
It seems to me that if what further biological evolution we have undergone in the last 40,000 years cannot explain why we have "progressed," cannot explain why civilizations rise and fall, and cannot explain history, then it is reasonable to say there has not been enough further biological evolution to be significant---at least in the last 40,000 years.

If am not wrong, one single factor caused the entire set of cultural changes - The ability to communicate using words. The more we advanced in communication, the more we began to depend on words. Words are nothing but man made sounds to which subjective meaning is attributed. Inside our brain, languages are only a database we acquired after our birth. No human can at any point of time in his life can explain how exactly he feels to another human. No words can explain it with a scientific accuracy. Our thoughts and memories being signals, got lost in translation during the age of communication.

So there was a gap in the meaning of every single word spoken and understood. When we tried to explain further and gain knowledge using the same words, it created even more complexities. Knowledge when passed on from one to next always carried subjective information based on that individuals brain and its way of functioning. It cannot be fully understood by brain2 and it began to trigger unreasonable amount of fear due to the conflicts between brain1 and brain2 in its pattern of processing information. The more we communicated, the more fear was accumulated. And then we communicated more to find ways to control the fear. Rest is history.

I can be wrong though.
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
During the almost two hundred thousand years we have been Homo Sapiens, anthropologists have been unable to demonstrate any significant further biological evolution.

So, why confuse the issue and claim "human evolution" when the evolution only evolved apes to us and we are not and have not evolved biologically?

In being objective in science it is important to ues terms in precise ways. Why should words be used to claim something that the anthropologists cannot demonstrate?

Oh, yes, they did conclude we are a little smaller in statue and our brain case is a triffle smaller, but if we count that, we imply that it explains "human progress" and it certianly does not, does it?


Its time to concentrate on social evolution to explain what is going on and quit fiddling around grasping for biological evolutionary straws that don't exist.

Why can't social theorists explain it without coming up with four to eight different conflicting theories?

charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com

I bet you anything that we don't look much like our ancestors of 200,000 years ago, let alone behave like them--(though that could be fairly argued, given the behaviour some people display):bugeye: so I'd definitely say we've evolved to at least some degree.
 
I submit that humans are the most rapidly evolving species on the planet. Take a look at how unstable our phenotype is, our jaws are born misaligned most of the time, and that's why we need braces. This is a product of an incomplete transition between a forward sloping jawline, and the modern flat face. A stable species would have perfected that by now, especially since it affects eating habits.
 
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