"The Wise and God". A dialogue. A reflection...

[James R]

terako:

Pure abstract rationalism could show God is for real.

How?

For me, the existence of the Universe's Physics Laws cannot be explained without a God developing them...

What makes you think that?

I believe in Descartes' rationalism and the body/mind dualism. Body and mind two separated things...

Why do you believe that?

That God would be able to intervent in the Physics of the Universe for instance adjusting the Physics' parameters to the ideal values they would have for an ideal form of life as should have been planned by the creator God and pointed out in the previous post. That is something no way humans could do. It would be something up to God only. It would be something God should have done long time ago, right, but what if he is in some big trouble and not able to do it?
The big challenge for us would be to figure out which would be that trouble and point out a solution. Seems a bit of faith is needed to accept such challenge of course...

Do you believe that God has intervened in the physics of the universe? If so, why?

For me "soul" is synonym of "mind".

Do you believe that the mind, or soul, survives death? If so, why?

""From my point of view the Physics System of the Universe running all the Physics' Laws of the Universe seems to be flawing.

Nowadays organic molecules "break" causing mutations, cancer, cells' deterioration, aging and death. A more ideal kind of life should exist. Some physics-parameters could have a wrong real running value, some physical things could not be exactly the way they should be and the Universe could be in a not ideal state. Nature could be different.

It sounds like you think that the universe should be built for the convenience of human beings, but you think it hasn't been. Instead, you think the universe is not in an "ideal state". Do you think that there's a God and he made some mistakes, then, or could it be that there's no Master Plan after all?

Our Universe seems to have not born perfect. Something could have gone wrong in its creation.

Do you think the universe was created by a god? If so, why?

Hope would exist if some "God", capable to fix the flaw, would exist.

But that God could have also been affected and have troubles...

Would a god who has troubles still be a god? What would trouble a god?

May be we, all humans at Earth, could help someway just following our intuition. Every thing we could solve here could help God solve something there. Everything could be important.

Do you think that a god would need the help of human beings to solve his problems?

That's what makes sense to me although with the lack of some proofs.

That's my faith.

I don't get it. I'm not getting any clear picture of what your faith amounts to from your descriptions/questions.

What, exactly, do you believe? Do you believe there is a God, or not? Do you believe in a limited God who needs human help? What?

 

[James R]

Is your phone flawed, or does it do what it is supposed to do?
If it wears down after 5years. Would you be surprised?

In the case of phones there is planned obsolescence. Companies who make phones want you to buy a new one every few years. If you didn't, they'd go out of business.

Haven't you ever wondered why most phones don't have replaceable batteries?

Your faith seems to be mixed with your own allusions. That’s not really faith. It’s more like you said, or implied, a conclusion.

I can feel a "No True Scotsman" argument coming on, again.

terato: bear in mind that Jan Ardena considers himself to be the only "true" theist in the world.

I get a free pass for showing darwinism to be a scam.

Nope.

I think you’re right when you say God doesn’t want bad things to happen to His creation.
But I think you’re mistaken when you say God hasn’t put anything in place to prevent bad things happening.
The Ten Commandments, is an obvious protection against bad things happening. But there are instructions for every community, if they care to adopt the principles of adoption. We choose how we want to live. Our choices are responsible for our present condition.

Do you think that Covid-19 is God's punishment for people not obeying the Ten Commandments?

 

[teroko]

JamesR:
You questioned line by line. Too much questions in several posts at a time. I will begin to answer what I think are the most relevant ones. Just tell me if something important got missing.

I don't see much about "The wise" in the opening or subsequent posts. What's that about?

The opening post is a fictitious dialogue between a wise who is supposed to know much about lot of things and some intriguing else.

Why does this seem like a wrong kind of life? Also, fortuitous would be good, not bad, wouldn't it?
How do you think things should be?

Too much diseases, calamities, catastrophes, tragedies, etc. Assuming a God exists it shouldn't be that way.

Depends on what kind of god you're talking about, I guess. Also, one god or many, possibly competing, gods?

An omnipotent God would have the power to solve everything, certainly. So the obvious question is: why doesn't he/she/it?

Think in one God omniscient and omnipotent enough to have created the entire Universe but not so perfect may be, as something unpredictable for him could have happened leaving the Universe in some not ideal state for an ideal life. And something that for worst could have badly affected God himself preventing him to fix the things until nowadays.

That sounds like a round about way to do things, though, don't you think? Why guide our intuition rather than acting directly? Also, what form is that guidance supposed to take?

All Physics are obeyed all the time. If it were the case God could influence someway in our decisions may be.

A matter of time until what?

Until finally solve the things for ideal lives take place in ideal worlds in an ideal Universe.

Please give me some time to answer the next posts. Much questions...

 

[teroko]

How?

the "first mover" and the "ontological argument" for instance.

What makes you think that?

How do you explain the existence of the Physics Laws in the Universe. How they came into place?

Do you believe that God has intervened in the physics of the universe? If so, why?

God created the Universe with everything in it including its Physics Laws. He developed them.

It sounds like you think that the universe should be built for the convenience of human beings, but you think it hasn't been. Instead, you think the universe is not in an "ideal state". Do you think that there's a God and he made some mistakes, then, or could it be that there's no Master Plan after all?

Would a god who has troubles still be a god? What would trouble a god?

Not so perfect God as something unpredictable happened. And as I said something that for worst could have badly affected God himself preventing him to fix the things until nowadays.

Do you think that a god would need the help of human beings to solve his problems?

If we could it would be good I think because our lives are affected by the problems.

Reached the end I think...

 

[James R]

teroko:

Too much diseases, calamities, catastrophes, tragedies, etc. Assuming a God exists it shouldn't be that way.

Are you saying that you therefore doubt God's existence? Or you think God exists but he/she/it has some problems?

Think in one God omniscient and omnipotent enough to have created the entire Universe but not so perfect may be, as something unpredictable for him could have happened leaving the Universe in some not ideal state for an ideal life. And something that for worst could have badly affected God himself preventing him to fix the things until nowadays.

"Omnipotent" means "all powerful" - a God whose power is without limits. You are suggesting that this all-powerful God had something "unpredictable" happen to him ("omniscient", by the way, would mean that he sees everything, so nothing would be unpredicted to him). You're also saying that this unforeseen thing may have left God in a state where he was unable to fix the problem. But that would mean he isn't omnipotent (or not any more).

Your suggestion, then, appears to be that a Creator God exists/existed, but he/she/it is not all powerful or all seeing? Is that correct?

All Physics are obeyed all the time. If it were the case God could influence someway in our decisions may be.

I asked you why God would choose to act in such an indirect way, rather than acting directly himself to fix the problems. What do you think?

the "first mover" and the "ontological argument" for instance.

Philosophers generally agree that both of those "proofs" of God are flawed.

How do you explain the existence of the Physics Laws in the Universe. How they came into place?

Are you telling me that the reason you think that the laws of physics require a God is because you can't think of any other reason why they would exist?

Do you have any positive reason for thinking that the laws of physics require a God, or just this absence of an explanation?

Suppose I can't currently explain how the laws of physics came into existence in our universe. What then? Do you conclude that, therefore, there must be a God?

God created the Universe with everything in it including its Physics Laws. He developed them.

I'll ask you again: how do you know this? Why do you believe it? You didn't really answer me last time. You tried to answer by asking me a different question.

If we could it would be good I think because our lives are affected by the problems.

You didn't really answer my question, again. I asked you whether you think God needs human help to solve his problems. What do you think?

 

[teroko]

Are you saying that you therefore doubt God's existence? Or you think God exists but he/she/it has some problems?

I believe God exists but has problems.

Your suggestion, then, appears to be that a Creator God exists/existed, but he/she/it is not all powerful or all seeing? Is that correct?

Right.

I asked you why God would choose to act in such an indirect way, rather than acting directly himself to fix the problems. What do you think?

It could be God doesn't know the solution of the problem he face yet.

Are you telling me that the reason you think that the laws of physics require a God is because you can't think of any other reason why they would exist?

Yes.

Do you have any positive reason for thinking that the laws of physics require a God, or just this absence of an explanation?

May be is by Occam's razor principle that it is simple to think in a God developing the Physics' Laws against the big difficulty in trying to make them appear spontaneously in the Universe.

I'll ask you again: how do you know this? Why do you believe it? You didn't really answer me last time. You tried to answer by asking me a different question.

There's no why may be. I just believe that.

You didn't really answer my question, again. I asked you whether you think God needs human help to solve his problems. What do you think?

Answered above: It could be God doesn't know the solution of the problem he face yet.

 

[teroko]

James R and everybody:
Don't worry. I know nobody can agree or even understand properly my point of view.
Better to continue alone with my reflections...
I appreciate everybody comments anyway.
Thanks.

 

[James R]

teroko:

I believe God exists but has problems.

Wouldn't it be simpler to account for the evils in the world by saying there's no God, rather than there is a God but he has problems?

May be is by Occam's razor principle that it is simple to think in a God developing the Physics' Laws against the big difficulty in trying to make them appear spontaneously in the Universe.

God is not a simple explanation. God is a very complicated explanation that just raises a lot more questions. The obvious one is this: if God created the laws of physics, what or who created God?

You might want to argue that nothing created God, that God has always existed. But then, wouldn't it be easier to argue that the laws of physics have always existed? We at least have some good evidence for the laws of physics, to start with.

There's no why may be. I just believe that.

You believe it because you have faith (a belief in the absence of evidence)?

Okay. The next question is: do you think it is good to believe in things for which there is no good evidence?

 

[paddoboy]

James R and everybody:
Don't worry. I know nobody can agree or even understand properly my point of view.
Better to continue alone with my reflections...
I appreciate everybody comments anyway.
Thanks.

"I may not agree with what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it" [or words to that effect] Voltaire:
Jan could learn a heap from your apparent decent attitude and honesty.
In the meantime, I have a video of a Professor Sean Carroll giving a lecture on "The Theory of God" He does it with much restraint and effort to not cause offence and with utmost aplomb....much like another who I often admired named Carl Sagan.
The video is lengthy [just under an hour] but I hope you take the time to watch and understand why many scientists see god/s as unnecessary and superfluous.Whether you change your belief or not is your business and that should be respected.....

 

[paddoboy]

Here is a shorter one [7 minutes] entitled "arguments for Atheism"

 

[Jan Ardena]

In the case of phones there is planned obsolescence.

So the phone isn’t flawed. Unless it doesn’t do what it is supposed to do. Then it is not a complete and functioning phone.

terato: bear in mind that Jan Ardena considers himself to be the only "true" theist in the world.

Wow! A moderator that blatantly lies.

Nope.

Yep.
You know what is so significant about the piltdown man foolishness? It’s not that it was a bald face lie, that tricked and bamboozle the public for 40 years. It was the desperation that caused its perpetrators to commit that act.

Do you think that Covid-19 is God's punishment for people not obeying the Ten Commandments?

Who mentioned anything about punishment?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Jan could learn a heap from your apparent decent attitude and honesty.

Birds of a feather...

 

[Jan Ardena]

James R and everybody:
Don't worry. I know nobody can agree or even understand properly my point of view.
Better to continue alone with my reflections...
I appreciate everybody comments anyway.
Thanks.

Why did you come on discussion forum?
And why do you appreciate everybody’s comments

 

[paddoboy]

James R and everybody:
Don't worry. I know nobody can agree or even understand properly my point of view.
Better to continue alone with my reflections...
I appreciate everybody comments anyway.
Thanks.

Sorry Teroko in raising you in comparison to a known religious nut. It seems it has set him off! Apologies again, and again, a great attitude you have, so maintain it and don't worry about the fool I have awaken.

 

[paddoboy]

Why did you come on discussion forum?
And why do you appreciate everybody’s comments

Because he listens...because he does not lie...because he is honest...because he is not a damn fool. You could learn from him, but alas, no hope of that.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Because he listens...because he does not lie...because he is honest...because he is not a damn fool. You could learn from him, but alas, no hope of that.

That’s why he said...

“Don't worry. I know nobody can agree or even understand properly my point of view.
Better to continue alone with my reflections...
I appreciate everybody comments anyway.
Thanks.”

 

[paddoboy]

That’s why he said...

“Don't worry. I know nobody can agree or even understand properly my point of view.
Better to continue alone with my reflections...
I appreciate everybody comments anyway.
Thanks.”

A shame you refuse to take a leaf out of his book......obviously though again, you have redefined what I'm alluding to...or perhaps just plain dumb?

 

[James R]

So the phone isn’t flawed.

That is a matter of perspective. Personally, I'd prefer it if my phone had a removable battery, and I consider that a flaw. On the other hand, the makers of that phone consider it a clever design feature which allows them to sell more phones more often.

Unless it doesn’t do what it is supposed to do.

You can't always deduce what a thing is "supposed to do" just be looking at the thing itself. A purpose is not the same as a function. To establish purpose, you have to establish that there is somebody who had/has an end result in mind. Function is another matter. You can investigate what the function of something is without needing to consult a designer (if there is one).

Wow! A moderator that blatantly lies.

Mild exaggeration is all. You did, after all, just tell yet another person that they aren't a "real" theist, in effect, despite their stating that they believe in God. You have a habit of doing that.

You know what is so significant about the piltdown man foolishness? It’s not that it was a bald face lie, that tricked and bamboozle the public for 40 years. It was the desperation that caused its perpetrators to commit that act.

Why were the perpetrators desperate? Who do you consider the perpetrators were, by they way (because that's still a subject of some debate)?

There's a long history of clever fraudsters in many fields. Look at art fraud, for instance.

In the case of Piltdown man, some scientists questioned the claims right from the start. During the 40 years you mention, the "finds" came to be considered more and more of a bizarre aberration, because they did not fit in with other fossils that were being found relating to human evolution. They did send some scientists off on various wild goose chases, to the extent that about 250 scientific papers were published relating to the Piltdown "finds". But science corrected the error, as it usually does.

Who mentioned anything about punishment?

Oh, sorry. Do you think that Covid-19 is God's generous gift to his Creation, in return for their disobeying of the Ten Commandments?

 

[Jan Ardena]

That is a matter of perspective. Personally, I'd prefer it if my phone had a removable battery, and I consider that a flaw. On the other hand, the makers of that phone consider it a clever design feature which allows them to sell more phones more often.

Does your phone perform the task that it is supposed to?

You can't always deduce what a thing is "supposed to do" just be looking at the thing itself.

So what. I don’t really know what a carburettor does, but I know it does something. And if it does what it is supposed to do, then it is complete in it’s design.

To establish purpose, you have to establish that there is somebody who had/has an end result in mind.

I assume there is somebody who had a purpose in mind.

Function is another matter. You can investigate what the function of something is without needing to consult a designer (if there is one).

But you know there is a designer. That’s the point.

Mild exaggeration is all. You did, after all, just tell yet another person that they aren't a "real" theist, in effect, despite their stating that they believe in God. You have a habit of doing that.

Not up to the point where you lied.

Why were the perpetrators desperate?

Stop playing games James. Piltdown Man was fraud, designed to fool the public into accepting human evolution. People were fooled for decades. Why would they do that?

In the case of Piltdown man, some scientists questioned the claims right from the start. During the 40 years you mention, the "finds" came to be considered more and more of a bizarre aberration, because they did not fit in with other fossils that were being found relating to human evolution. They did send some scientists off on various wild goose chases, to the extent that about 250 scientific papers were published relating to the Piltdown "finds". But science corrected the error, as it usually does.

They were desperate mate.
That desperation appears to be a characteristic.

Oh, sorry. Do you think that Covid-19 is God's generous gift to his Creation, in return for their disobeying of the Ten Commandments?

No. Whatever gave you that idea?

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

designed to fool the public into accepting human evolution

More like designed to rob folk of their cash ...one bad apple that was noticed from the start and removed as soon as possible.
It seems folk knew the guy was a con but we're unable to nail him.
But all the other evidence remains.
Alex

 

[paddoboy]

More like designed to rob folk of their cash ...one bad apple that was noticed from the start and removed as soon as possible.
It seems folk knew the guy was a con but we're unable to nail him.
But all the other evidence remains.
Alex

Jan like many other religious fanatics, will use any flaw in science to continue to preach there nonsense.
The facts are, as he has been told, nothing is perfect. There has been some fraud and mistakes in science, and just as obvious, the flaws and mistakes are rectified by the same science...science is in continual progress and search for knowledge...far different from the "stick in the mud" unchanging, unevidenced nonsensical approach and the lies that Jan continues to troll with.