The Wisconsin Issue

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Giambattista

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Valued Senior Member
Right now, state workers are protesting. Why?

I've only begun to look into it, but it doesn't seem to be as clear cut as it looks.

I just posted this

Giambattista said:
There is not a thread currently on this Wisconsin thing, so I'll just ask right now: what is actually at stake? So far I have seen that the governor of the state wants to increase the amount of money (deduction from salary) paid into state workers' pension and healthcare funds, for one thing. It looks to me like they already pay a pittance.

Now, removing certain rights for workers to collectivize isn't something I'm about either. We don't need to go back to the dark ages. But, maybe unions have gained too much strength in certain areas? Certainly if/when workers are forced to join a union when they are hired.

This subject deserves a larger thread.

For now, call me when there are mass layoffs of public workers. This doesn't look like one of those times.

My opinion, for those who give a f***: the issue needs to be JOBS. Period. This country has been sold out to the lowest bidder, it seems, and so government services are a reflection of that. We will have almost no rights as citizens at all if this country continues to outsource, continues to spend on it's foreign policy, etc, and continues to value worthless financial institutions and the monetary voodoo they engage in.
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Haven't many districts in certain states laid off teachers already?
http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/04/hundreds_of_cleveland_teachers.html

Why are people protesting over this thing in Wisconsin? I'd like to know what is exactly going on here.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/15/wisconsin-state-workers-p_n_823476.html

State workers in Wisconsin are protesting a statement by Republican Governor Scott Walker that, union reps say, amounts to a threat to use the National Guard to help break the public union.

Citing a $137 million budget deficit, Walker announced a plan last week which would essentially take away the public union's collective bargaining rights and slash benefits for state employees. Meanwhile, the share of corporate tax revenue funding the state government has fallen by half since 1981 and, according to Wisconsin Department of Revenue, two-thirds of corporations pay no taxes.

...

"If it had simply to do with the budget there doesn't seem to be a need to eliminate collective bargaining," said Joseph McCartin, a labor historian at Georgetown University. "In other states where state's municipalities have faced difficult times, unions have helped negotiate the way forward."

"Denying people's rights has nothing to do with the budget," said Michael Uehlein, field director for the American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial Organizations (AFL-CIO). Uehlein views Walker's proposal as "an excuse to go after his political enemies" and "the first step that will lead to drastically reduced wages across the state."

Rick Badger, the executive director of AFSCME's Wisconsin 40 council, one of the most active unions in the state, characterized Walker's proposal as a "man-made disaster" that is "really about taking away people's rights and creating a second class citizen."
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From CNN

"There are some tough decisions that are going to have to made on the revenue side and the spending side," said Elizabeth McNichol, senior fellow at the Washington-based Center on Budget and Policy Priorities.

  • -- A month after Illinois lawmakers approved a massive tax hike, Gov. Pat Quinn on Wednesday unveiled a $35.4 billion budget that depends on state lawmakers approving $8.7 billion in new borrowing largely to clear a towering stack of unpaid bills.
  • -- In New York, Mayor Michael Bloomberg presented budget plans Thursday that could eliminate more than 6,000 teaching jobs in the next fiscal year.
  • -- Last month, the mayor of crime-ridden Camden, New Jersey, announced layoffs of nearly half of the city's police force and close to a third of its fire department.
  • -- In California, Gov. Jerry Brown imposed a statewide hiring freeze across all government agencies.

Thirty-five U.S. states and Puerto Rico reported projected budget shortfalls for fiscal year 2012 totaling $82.1 billion, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures.

"As most federal stimulus dollars will have been exhausted, a common phrase we hear from states across the country is that 'we're very much on our own this year,'" said Arturo Perez, a budget analyst for the conference.

State revenues are -- at the national average -- 11% below pre-recession levels largely because of high unemployment and other effects of the economic downturn, McNichol said.

"People are out of work and not buying as much," McNichol noted.

With fewer budget contributions that, in part, stem from the higher unemployment numbers, public-sector services and long-standing contractual obligations could suffer, she explained.

The budget battle is somewhat unique in heavily unionized Wisconsin, where collective bargaining began. Many workers don't take kindly to what they see as a frontal assault on workers' rights.

Walker, who says the state is in a crisis, is asking legislators to pass his Budget Repair Bill to combat a $137 million shortfall through June 30. An upcoming two-year budget for 2011-13 must address a pending $3.6 billion deficit, he said.

But the state's Legislative Fiscal Bureau -- similar to the federal government's Congressional Budget Office -- reported last month that tax cuts passed late last year by Wisconsin's newly elected, Republican-led legislature had helped add more than $200 million to the state's budget shortfall.

The legislation requires workers to cover more of their health care premiums and pension contributions, although supporters say local governments will decide on health care contribution for their employees.

Pay raises would be limited to inflation, unless a referendum approves of a larger increases, and collective bargaining could cover only wages.

The legislation also requires collective bargaining units to conduct annual votes to maintain certification, a costly procedure, and eliminates the right of unions to have dues deducted from worker paychecks.

...

The legislation would save the state about $30 million between now and the end of June and, if continued, an estimated $300 million during the next two years, Walker has said. He said workers in the private sector pay higher percentages of their pay for health care and pensions.
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No one that I have read has yet been laid off. They should thank their lucky stars.

And judging by what other jurisdictions are doing, having to pay more of their pension and healthcare seems a trifle.

With municipalities laying off law enforcement and others, I'd like to know why this Wisconsin thing is such a dire dilemma?
 
With municipalities laying off law enforcement and others, I'd like to know why this Wisconsin thing is such a dire dilemma?
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Because of just that, many states today are in the same situation in which their budgets are way out of control with over spending and over taxation. Most states have an additional income tax that takes away even more money than the Federal taxes do and that's what the biggest problem is. States are already hard pressed top find money to pay for what they already have and now, like in Wisconsin, they are going to have to either lay people off or reduce the state workers income somehow. With unions trying to get their members more and the state not having the resources to give raises to anyone there's going to be be a very big problem that if the unions don't give in somewhat, they won't have as many people as members soon for the state will have to let them go.

As in many instances that have happened with the private workers and their unions, they did make concessions to help the private companies overcome the prospect of a total bankruptcy and collapse as well. The Federal air traffic controllers that went on strike were all fired if you recall and I think that is what will happen if the state workers don't try to reduce their demands and work with the state.
 
The problem goes beyond budgets that are out of control.

Job loss, and accumulating interest on debt are also concerns. And if tax breaks are given at the wrong time, that also causes problems.

But to me, the big thing is jobs. If this country doesn't do something to revive its base, you can start sucking Chinese c*** real soon. Because that's where this country is going.
 
It's early to determine what the ramifications of this will be in other locales, but seriously... state employee unions can be too powerful, almost tyrannical. It is because of a union that the state troopers here in NY make six figures a year. These are mostly highway cops who we are talking about. Those overpaid pigs are feeding from the public trough, so do they really have a right to complain?

It would be one thing if Walker was attacking regular labor unions, but these are state employees who are having their benefits cut. I don't hold government employee rights to the same standards as other laborers' rights. Now, if other unions are hurt by this move, then we'll have another issue on our hands. But right now, that is my sense of things. :cool:

By the way, I have story about how the nurses' union in New York has put patients at risk in a hospital here, if anyone is interested.
 
Giambattista said:
The problem goes beyond budgets that are out of control.

Job loss, and accumulating interest on debt are also concerns. And if tax breaks are given at the wrong time, that also causes problems.

But to me, the big thing is jobs. If this country doesn't do something to revive its base, you can start sucking Chinese c*** real soon. Because that's where this country is going.
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But that is what the Federal government wants so that it can gain more control over the citizens by having them working for the government not the private sector so that socialism/communism will be the only road to travel. The government could have stopped the businesses from moving their work overseas but it never has and so far never will until the American workers are on even pay scale with the Chinese workers. Blame Congress for putting everyone into this mess because they allowed it but the citizens did nothing to prevent it from happening either.
 
WillNever said:
By the way, I have story about how the nurses' union in New York has put patients at risk in a hospital here, if anyone is interested.
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Thank you for your interest in our product!
But seriously. Do tell. I'd like to hear this.

cosmictraveler said:
But that is what the Federal government wants so that it can gain more control over the citizens by having them working for the government not the private sector so that socialism/communism will be the only road to travel. The government could have stopped the businesses from moving their work overseas but it never has and so far never will until the American workers are on even pay scale with the Chinese workers. Blame Congress for putting everyone into this mess because they allowed it but the citizens did nothing to prevent it from happening either.
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Globalism is destroying us. Someone in the middle is making money off this, while workers are losing jobs or suffering pay decreases, not to mention the perils of inflation.

China is already eyeing this country to put factories here. And some idiots are welcoming it. Since when did this country become open season to the ruthless Chinese?

China, in my estimation, is neither communist, nor capitalist. It's a new form of serfdom, and various parties in this country seem to be willing bitches to this new form of economy.
 
WillNever said:
It's early to determine what the ramifications of this will be in other locales, but seriously... state employee unions can be too powerful, almost tyrannical. It is because of a union that the state troopers here in NY make six figures a year. These are mostly highway cops who we are talking about. Those overpaid pigs are feeding from the public trough, so do they really have a right to complain?
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And they probably have a sweetheart deal with Heimland Sicherheit as well. That only sweetens the disgusting deal. :rolleyes:

I saw a recent report on Illinois education administrators. The total retirement payouts are $800+ million dollars. The top people make several hundred thousand a year. For what?

I ask myself, how the hell do those administrators do anything that actually deserves that kind of money?

But, to be fair, why did government welfare allow bailout bonuses for Wall Street executives?

It's funny that a lot of people who are calling for the ax to come down on government spending seem perfectly alright with government welfare when it comes to large too-big-to-fail financial institutions.
 
The way I understand it, there are several concessions that the law requires some public workers unions to make. (Policemen and firefighters and paramedics are excluded.) It eliminates their ability to collectively bargain on everything except wages, it requires the unions vote each year to be re-certified, and it eliminates the union's ability to deduct dues automatically from worker's paychecks. This is aside from asking for a modest increase in employee contributions to health care and pension funds, to put them more in line with private sector workers. And it caps teacher raises (I think) at the CPI.

The Republicans hold the house and the governorship, and have the necessary votes to pass the law. The democratic minority left the state, so they're out of the jurisdiction of the state troopers, who could presumably round them up and force them to vote.

The big contention, I think, is the things OTHER than the pension and health care increases. I read something on CNN yesterday from the head of the teacher's union said that the bill would be acceptable (i.e. the protests would end) if the collective bargaining thing were taken off the table.

Now, we may be in disagreement about these things, but it seems we are in agreement that these unions are too powerful and overpaid. The arguments I've read from striking teachers go like "How can you cut funding for education and expect to produce competitive students?" This, of course, is a joke---the bill isn't about funding schools, it's about realigning benefits so that the state can afford to pay its employees. And you have to look no further than the majority of teachers who called in sick, with the effect of closing down entire school districts, than to see where their priorities lie.

But, to be fair, why did government welfare allow bailout bonuses for Wall Street executives?
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This is a somewhat different question, I think---you can't compare Wall Street execs with teachers. And why aren't you concerned about the bonuses that GM and Dodge are giving their workers?
 
It is interesting to note that the union protesters were being joined by the pro-governor Tea Party activists on Satudray, which I find quite humorous.
 
BenTheMan said:
It is interesting to note that the union protesters were being joined by the pro-governor Tea Party activists on Satudray, which I find quite humorous.
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Joined, strange way to put it.

The working people of Wisconsin, the Tax Payers, who work for a living in the private sector, ( "not the public sector" ) who have to eat every tax raise out of their own pocket, are coming down to Madison on their day off from work, to show support for the Governor, and the proposed legislation.

They unlike the Teachers and Union Thugs get fired if they walk out of their jobs to protest.

The last election was about getting our state spending in order, and controlling the public sector who get their living of the back of the private sector.

The private sector employees who have to suck it up in their own family's every time the public sector blackmails a raise out of the state.
 
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Should get interesting since Wisconsin Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald said his chamber would meet Tuesday to act on non-spending bills and confirm the governor's appointees even if the Democrats don't show up since the Republicans have enough votes to pass any item that doesn't spend state money if the 13 Democrats remain absent. Only buget bills require a quorum of 20 senator, all other measures require only a simple majority.

Arthur
 
Buffalo Roam said:
The working people of Wisconsin, the Tax Payers, who work for a living in the private sector, ( "not the public sector" ) who have to eat every tax raise out of their own pocket, are coming down to Madison on their day off from work, to show support for the Governor, and the proposed legislation.
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its said to see you kinds propaganda affecting the usualy smart people of Wisconsin

They unlike the Teachers and Union Thugs get fired if they walk out of their jobs to protest.
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and why is this because people like you prevent and demand they don't form unions so they are left to the whims of management. and the union's aren't thugs. the people like you attacking people who try and set things up so they can be paid a living wage are the thugs.

The last election was about getting our state spending in order, and controlling the public sector who get their living of the back of the private sector.
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actualy from the ads I saw on TV its mostly about republicans lying to get into office.

The private sector employees who have to suck it up in their own family's every time the public sector blackmails a raise out of the state.
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sorry that the people who work in government want a decent wage and don't want to be slaves to your whim. they didn't blackmail shit out of anyone. we need to give your ilk its own country so you can just fuck up your lives with you bad ideas so the rest of us can prosper.
 
Giambattista said:
And judging by what other jurisdictions are doing, having to pay more of their pension and healthcare seems a trifle.
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which tells me you don't have a very good grasp on what life is like for a lot of people. I live in an affluent area. people who I know have had to go back to work to pay for their benefits after retiring.

With municipalities laying off law enforcement and others, I'd like to know why this Wisconsin thing is such a dire dilemma?
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its all a dilemma. it attacking those who did no wrong rather than those who you know actually caused the crisis. conservative politicians with their reckless deregulation policies and the bankers.



remember all those crappy loans be tossed around. a lot of them were being put into the retirement funds of state employees.
 
The biggest problem of any state that has a pension fund or retirement fund set up is to make certain that it is well funded so that it has enough money in it to pay for those who are using it and gaining income as it does as well so that it doesn't run out of money for the next retirees who will be using it. Most states put their funds into the stock market to help bolster the income for those retirement funds but when the stock market crashed two or three times those investments went down to drain each time. That is what has caused the biggest problem so far and will continue happening if the state keeps investing in the stock market. To fund the stats retirement it should find a better way to invest its pension funds in the future or the same thing will keep happening. That's why I'm against the social security administration investing its funds into the stock market as well for all the stock market does is work like a ponzie scheme until no one can put money into it then it collapses in on itself.
 
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