The universe is a mathematical construct

Write4U

Write4U

Valued Senior Member
river said:
We do not Live in a Universe in that's its very existence depends on mathematics , Alone . By itself . In and of its self .

Mathematics can not create a Universe that is Real and Physical .
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It depends on your understanding of abstract mathematics.
Everything in the universe is a "pattern". Patterns are by definition mathematical in essence. Therefore, everything in the Universe has a mathematical aspect to it.

As Tegmark observes: "Most scientists recognize some mathematical properties to the universe. I recognize only mathematical properties.

This concept was originally developed by Eugene Wigner.
"The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences" is the title of an article published in 1960 by the physicist Eugene Wigner.[1] In the paper, Wigner observed that the mathematical structure of a physical theory often points the way to further advances in that theory and even to empirical predictions.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unreasonable_Effectiveness_of_Mathematics_in_the_Natural_Sciences

In a world where evolution is the self-organization and increasing complexity of patterns among relational values , what is the objection to the concept of mathematics as being an essential aspect to the universal fabric?

The common misconception is that therefore mathematics must be causal, but that is a false dichotomy.

Mathematics are not causal but are "guiding equations" by which reality is or is not allowed to express itself.
 
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We do not Live in a Universe in that's its very existence depends on mathematics , Alone . By itself . In and of its self .
Mathematics can not create a Universe that is Real and Physical .
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It depends on your understanding of abstract mathematics.
Everything in the universe is a "pattern". Patterns are by definition mathematical in essence. Therefore, everything in the Universe has a mathematical aspect to it.

As Tegmark observes: "Most scientists recognize some mathematical properties to the universe. I recognize only mathematical properties.

This concept was originally developed by Eugene Wigner.
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You totally missed my point above .

What is the ESSENCE of this pattern in the Universe ? What are these mathematical patterns based on ?
 
river said:
You totally missed my point above .
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no I did not. You are missing the point.
What is the ESSENCE of this pattern in the Universe ?
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You can start with the geometry of the universe itself.
What are these mathematical patterns based on ?
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Logically permittive and restrictive interactions, based on relational values.

You may want to revisit my thread on Chaos Theory.
 
river said:
You have missed my point , or ignored it .
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No I have not. IMO, you don't quite understand the implication of what you are asking.
What is the Essence of the geometry of the Universe ?
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Mathematical. The concept and definition is contained in the word "geometry".
That is why mathematics is the language of the Universe. The proof lies in the pudding.

Why Math is the “Language of the Universe:”
To start with, Mathematics does not have a clearly defined, universally accepted definition.
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However it is safe to say that anything that studies the interaction between quantities, variables, structure, and change, is mathematics.
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Mathematics is not a tangible thing, but actually an abstract concept. There are a great many ways of expressing mathematics; the one you are probably most familiar with is the base ten Arabic format that permeates science right now. The base, the symbols, the structure, and the methods used to express mathematics can all be radically different and yet, it is still mathematics.
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Other civilizations have made other ways of expressing mathematics, and if we ever run into alien intelligence, it is likely that they will use a different system than we do. But the system is not the thing.
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This is because mathematics is the expression and quantification of basic logical concepts, and then it builds on those logical concepts to form increasingly complex concepts. It is, however, entirely a logical progression.
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But if we choose to ignore the murky waters of elementary logic, mathematics becomes the language of the universe simply because it has to be. There is no simpler, more fundamental way of expressing the universe than through the basic ideas of equality and inequality, which in turn lead to the concept of quantification, which lead to the concept of value and numbers (to expressed levels of inequality), and once we have numbers, the rest of mathematics seems to bloom from all around us. But again, the system we use to describe mathematics and mathematics itself are two completely different things.
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https://futurism.com/why-math-is-the-language-of-the-universe-2
 
What is the Essence of the geometry of the Universe ?
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Mathematical. The concept and definition is contained in the word "geometry".
That is why mathematics is the language of the Universe. The proof lies in the pudding.
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Think again . Your not going deep enough . What is the ESSENCE of geometry of the Universe .

What allows mathematics to exist in the first place ?
 
river said:
Think again . Your not going deep enough . What is the ESSENCE of geometry of the Universe .
What allows mathematics to exist in the first place ?
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Logic. Not Intelligence!

Better question is; "what allows the human symbolization of abstract mathematics", i.e. anything that studies the interaction between quantities, variables, structure, and change, is mathematics.

Read closely!
"There is no simpler, more fundamental way of expressing the universe than through the basic ideas of equality and inequality, which in turn lead to the concept of quantification, which lead to the concept of value and numbers (to expressed levels of inequality), and once we have numbers, the rest of mathematics seems to bloom from all around us."

If you think there is no empirical proof, then again I direct you to read Chaos theory which is by all accounts the very beginning of universal existence, but from which regular (mathematical) patterns emerge spontaneously. This has been proven and is fundamental to the Theory itself.
Chaos theory is an interdisciplinary theory stating that, within the apparent randomness of chaotic complex systems, there are underlying patterns, interconnectedness, constant feedback loops, repetition, self-similarity, fractals, and self-organization.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory#:
 
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Think again . Your not going deep enough . What is the ESSENCE of geometry of the Universe .
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Logic. Not Intelligence!
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The Physical is the Essence of Geometry or Shape . The Physical is Fundamentally Three Dimensional .

To your last statement .

You don't understand .
 
river said:
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The Physical is the Essence of Geometry or Shape . The Physical is Fundamentally Three Dimensional .
To your last statement .
You don't understand .
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OK. let's keep this really simple. Can you visualize what the symbolic word "tree"represents. A physical thing, right?

What you are missing that this particular physical thing has a mathematical pattern, like so:
recursive-tree-steps.png


The word "physical" is only symbolic in the most general way, i.e. what difference does the word "physical" symbolize when referring to different physical things?

Is a rock equal to a flower? They are both physical things, no? Something is lacking in this equation, no?

All expressed patterns in Nature are physical, but each physical thing has it's own mathematical relational value to other physical things, which may be symbolized in several logical ways.

The word "tree" symbolizes a specific repeatable physical pattern, with very specific physical parameters as compared to other physical things with specific repeatable patterns and specific physical parameters, such as a mountain, no?

A tree and a mountain are both physical things, but are they the same? What sets them apart? Mathematics!
 
Write4U said:
OK. let's keep this really simple. Can you visualize what the symbolic word "tree"represents. A physical thing, right?

What you are missing that this particular physical thing has a mathematical pattern, like so:
recursive-tree-steps.png


The word "physical" is only symbolic in the most general way, i.e. what difference does the word "physical" symbolize when referring to different physical things?

Is a rock equal to a flower? They are both physical things, no? Something is lacking in this equation, no?

All expressed patterns in Nature are physical, but each physical thing has it's own mathematical relational value to other physical things, which may be symbolized in several logical ways.

The word "tree" symbolizes a specific repeatable physical pattern, with very specific physical parameters as compared to other physical things with specific repeatable patterns and specific physical parameters, such as a mountain, no?

A tree and a mountain are both physical things, but are they the same? What sets them apart? Mathematics!
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What sets a Tree apart from a Mountain , is their physical make up . Which is what the patterns are based .
 
river said:
What sets a Tree apart from a Mountain , is their physical make up . Which is what the patterns are based .
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What's the difference between a physical pattern and a physical pattern?

p.s. "physical make-up" = "inherent relational value"
This has been explained several times now.

The word physical is meaningless unless it is assigned a relational value
 
river said:
What the essence of both physical patterns are .
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And those different essences of physical patterns are their relational values......sigh....

No matter where you start, where you came from, or where you are going in physics the single abstract logic that allows one to explain, quantify and qualify it all is mathematical in essence.

The physics are the "unfolded" mathematical patterns and values, to use a Bohmian term.
 
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river said: ↑
What the essence of both physical patterns are .
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Write4U said:
And those different essences of physical patterns are their relational values......sigh....
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More than that , deeper than that . Relational Values are based on actions .

No matter where you start, where you came from, or where you are going in physics the single abstract logic that explains it all is mathematical in essence. Without maths, you can't count!
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To the Universe mathematics doesn't matter . What matters is the actions and interactions between physical things .
 
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river said:
To the Universe mathematics doesn't matter . What matters is the actions and interactions between physical things .
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Bullshit.
Mathematics lead us to predict and describe the orbital parameters of the planets.
Mathematics lead us to discovering the Higgs Boson.
Mathematics lead us to the discovery of Neptune.
Mathematics is the language of physics and the Universe.
Those are basic facts.
 
river said: ↑
To the Universe mathematics doesn't matter . What matters is the actions and interactions between physical things .
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paddoboy said:
Bullshit.
Mathematics lead us to predict and describe the orbital parameters of the planets.
Mathematics lead us to discovering the Higgs Boson.
Mathematics lead us to the discovery of Neptune.
Mathematics is the language of physics and the Universe.
Those are basic facts.
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But Mathematics did Not Create the Universe . Physically .

Mathematics describes the physical .
 
river said:
More than that , deeper than that . Relational actions and interactions are based on actions .
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relational values are based on differential equations.
To the Universe mathematics doesn't matter . What matters is the actions and interactions between physical things .
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That's the point, the actions and interactions between physical things are permitted or restricted by their relational values.
Mathematics is everything. Mathematics is the implacable quasi-intelligence that is so often mistaken for the "hand of god".
 
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Write4U said:
quasi-intelligence
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Stop with the quasi-intelligence

Urban dictionary

TOP DEFINITION

quasi-intellectual

A person who merely appears to be smart.

Randy always wants to talk about Plato. It seems like he doesn't know much about anything else (or Plato for that matter).

He's such a quasi-intellectual.

by tree pipit September 08, 2010

At least Randy has some intelligence to try and upgrade

The Universe has NO intelligence including no quasi

:)
 
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