The UK

[Baldeee]

I would only add that Seattle has set the terms of this chat as premised on the assumption that productivity is the best metric of a nation's quality of life. I don't accept that. It comes with much implicit bias, especially towards rampant consumerism as something we're supposed to accept as an unqualified good.

He has made the specific distinction.
So I don't agree that he is using productivity as the best metric of a nation's quality of life.

It also raises the question of what measure of productivity one considers the "best metric".
As there are various notions of productivity, even if there is a basic one most usually referenced.

Also of note is that the official US productivity levels on a straight GDP/labour-hour basis is inflated over the UK because of the way some sectors are calculated.
Notably healthcare.
In the US, the productivity metric primarily uses costs/prices: what people pay, what insurers pay, etc.
In the UK the productivity in this sector is built up on an output basis: what activity has been done.
Since healthcare costs in the US are far higher than in the UK, they apprear to have a far higher productivity as a result in that sector.
But it is mostly a result of the methodology rather than anything else.
Apples and oranges, etc.
This sector alone may knock 5-10% off the difference in the usual "productivity" metric between the two countries.

I agree that "productivity", in isolation, can be misleading.
I also agree with the sentiment that there is no "best".
"Best" depends on what you want to achieve.

 

[Seattle]

We optimize for the ceiling, the EU optimizes for the floor. It's just a choice.

 

[exchemist]

Economic inequality causes that how?

That seems fairly easy to account for. A large degree of wealth inequality implies a significant proportion of the population is poor relative to the median. Those people are likely to feel dissatisfied.

There is also a further psychological point, to do with social cohesion. In societies with large disparities in wealth, the rich tend to cocoon themselves from the poor as they feel uncomfortable mingling with them (fear of theft, embarrassment, etc). The poor then resent them. So an antagonistic relationship tends to develop. In more equal societies there is less of this and consequently more of a feelling of being part of the same society.

I experienced this in the Netherlands, where the Calvinist culture discourages the ostentatious display of wealth. The Dutch don"t do bling, basically. This seemed to me to make for a society in which wealthy and less wealthy are more at ease in each other's presence and more friendly. In Houston by contrast, I was appalled at the tendency of wealthier people to feel they had to live behind gates and railings to keep "them" out: a fortress mentality. Of course in the States everyone's got GUNS, which may have something to do with it.

 

[Seattle]

That seems fairly easy to account for. A large degree of wealth inequality implies a significant proportion of the population is poor relative to the median. Those people are likely to feel dissatisfied.

So? Are we optimizing for jealousy and envy?

 

[exchemist]

So? Are we optimizing for jealousy and envy?

I've added to my post. Maybe it will seem bit clearer now. But yes, a wise society takes into account unhappiness of parts of its population, as expressed in jealousy and envy, and tries to ameliorate this. Effective democracies will do this naturally.

 

[Seattle]

That seems fairly easy to account for. A large degree of wealth inequality implies a significant proportion of the population is poor relative to the median. Those people are likely to feel dissatisfied.

There is also a further psychological point, to do with social cohesion. In societies with large disparities in wealth, the rich tend to cocoon themselves from the poor as they feel uncomfortable mingling with them (fear of theft, embarrassment, etc). The poor then resent them. So an antagonistic relationship tends to develop. In more equal societies there is less of this and consequently more of a feelling of being part of the same society.

I experienced this in the Netherlands, where the Calvinist culture discourages the ostentatious display of wealth. The Dutch don"t do bling, basically. This seemed to me to make for a society in which wealthy and less wealthy are more at ease in each other's presence and more friendly. In Houston by contrast, I was appalled at the tendency of wealthier people to feel they had to live behind gates and railings to keep "them" out: a fortress mentality. Of course in the States everyone's got GUNS, which may have something to do with it.

I disagree with the premise, in that what you are describing applies to both the ultra-wealthy and the merely well-off. You have the well-off in any society. Also, most places aren't "Houston".


Most neighborhoods are somewhat of necessity economically similar so you don't have poor people walking though middle-class, upper-middle class or extremely rich neighborhoods.

I live in a nice neighborhood, I don't go into the area that Bill Gates lives, yet I'm not envious or jealous.

Regarding my friends, no one knows what my net worth is nor do I know theirs.

It's seems to me that most of this argument is just an attachment to one's own system and somehow feeling it's the best and why doesn't everyone else agree and if they don't agree, they must not "give a fuck about Jack" to use Roosters eloquent vocabulary.

In a word, it's ignorant.

 

[Roosters for ever]

No, it had nothing to do with Trump. Try again...

I don't need to try again. The evidence is there for all to see.

 

[exchemist]

I disagree with the premise, in that what you are describing applies to both the ultra-wealthy and the merely well-off. You have the well-off in any society. Also, most places aren't "Houston".


Most neighborhoods are somewhat of necessity economically similar so you don't have poor people walking though middle-class, upper-middle class or extremely rich neighborhoods.

I live in a nice neighborhood, I don't go into the area that Bill Gates lives, yet I'm not envious or jealous.

Regarding my friends, no one knows what my net worth is nor do I know theirs.

It's seems to me that most of this argument is just an attachment to one's own system and somehow feeling it's the best and why doesn't everyone else agree and if they don't agree, they must not "give a fuck about Jack" to use Roosters eloquent vocabulary.

In a word, it's ignorant.

This response seems somewhat at cross purposes to mine. I was offering a reason why societies with a bigger wealth disparity might be less happy - and then illustrating it with a couple of observations from my own experience of living overseas. I was not attempting to defend any particular social system. (As a matter of fact I think the differences in those examples may be as much to do with culture as social system, though no doubt the culture is largely what produces the social system.)

To return to the point, it does seem fairly obvious that large disparities in wealth can easily lead to more division and less social cohesion, resulting in poorer overall scores on measures of contentment and happiness. That was what you were asking about in post 56, which is the post I was responding to.

 

[Chris1000K]

I’ve read the "Trump" thread here. We all know his traits, they haven't changed in a decade. But what’s interesting is the constant "UK vs. US" commentary, usually from posters who seem to think the UK is still a global benchmark for quality of life.

Since we love talking about failing leaders, scandalous elites, and healthcare crises, why not look at the UK through that same lens?

People here love the "Epstein" talking point when it comes to US politicians. That’s cool. But why is the thread so quiet about Prince Andrew’s arrest earlier this year? It’s hard to lecture the US on corruption when a member of your own Royal Family was taken into custody for "misuse of public office" regarding those same Epstein files.

The NHS is your favorite program, but look at the actual performance data. You have over 7 million people on waiting lists, that’s 1 in 10 of your population. You aren't "living longer"; you are "lingering longer."

You’ve fallen behind almost the entire EU in this metric. You’re living longer than Americans only because we have higher rates of accidental deaths (cars, drugs, guns) among young men. If you’re a healthy 30-year-old, the US system offers better survival rates for cancer and heart disease than the NHS.

The US economy remains the engine of the world. Meanwhile, the UK is experiencing stagflation. UK GDP growth for 2026 is effectively a flat-line (around 1%).

It’s easy to mock "American Greed," but that greed fuels the innovation and defense (NATO) that allows the UK to maintain its status. Without the US economy, the UK is just a cold, expensive island with low productivity and 1940s-era infrastructure that hasn't been upgraded.

If you think US politics is a circus, look at Keir Starmer. Between the Mandelson/Epstein envoy scandal and his own party calling for his resignation over civil service interference, the UK government is currently a mess. There’s a high probability he won't even finish his term.

The US certainly has its faults at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder, but the ceiling in the US is infinite. In the UK, the floor is rising, the ceiling is dropping, and the middle class is being squeezed into 40% housing costs and a 12-month wait for a basic scan.

Maybe it’s time to stop focusing on the "orange man" and start asking why your own national performance doesn't match your national pride.

The UK has more freedom than the US, J walking isn't a thing and the UK has the right to rome, crossing private land where necessary.
The UK isn't as politically divided as the US.
The UK is more diverse than the US, you can get food from over 270 different cultures in London, which is the most diverse city on Earth, a shining symbol of freedom that was once America's promise.
The UK population creates more scientific papers per capita than the US.
The UK creates more books than the US.
The UK has better teeth and oral hygiene.
The UK life expectancy is 2.7 to 4.7 years higher than the US.
The UK has lower better levels of inequality than the US.
The UK has far more stringent, higher & better food quality and safety standards than the US.
The UK has lower knife crime than the US.
The UK has far lower gun crime than the US.
The UK has a fraction of the US murder rate.
The UK has lower overall crime rates than the US.
The UK has almost no medical bankrupsies.
The UK has so much cheaper private medical insurance than the US.
The UK has far better pubic transport.
The UK has more walkable towns & cities.
The UK has better quality motorway services.
The UK has better quality petrol/gas stations.
The UK has no major natural disasters, earthquakes are incredibly tiny, likewise tornados.
The UK has better overall happiness than the US.
The UK has better Education performance than the US.
The UK has better workers rights, maternity & paternity pay and minimum 28 paid days off.
The UK roads are significantly safer than US roads.
The UK banking is more technologically advanced, and consumer-friendly with fewer fees) while US banking is fragmented.
The UK has 4 of the worlds top 10 universities, despite a 5th of US population.
The UK has a higher national minium at more than twice that of the US.
The UK has faster and cheaper Internet than the US.

 

[Chris1000K]

The UK has more freedom than the US, J walking isn't a thing and the UK has the right to rome, crossing private land where necessary.
The UK isn't as politically divided as the US.
The UK is more diverse than the US, you can get food from over 270 different cultures in London, which is the most diverse city on Earth, a shining symbol of freedom that was once America's promise.
The UK population creates more scientific papers per capita than the US.
The UK creates more books than the US.
The UK has better teeth and oral hygiene.
The UK life expectancy is 2.7 to 4.7 years higher than the US.
The UK has lower better levels of inequality than the US.
The UK has far more stringent, higher & better food quality and safety standards than the US.
The UK has lower knife crime than the US.
The UK has far lower gun crime than the US.
The UK has a fraction of the US murder rate.
The UK has lower overall crime rates than the US.
The UK has almost no medical bankrupsies.
The UK has so much cheaper private medical insurance than the US.
The UK has far better pubic transport.
The UK has more walkable towns & cities.
The UK has better quality motorway services.
The UK has better quality petrol/gas stations.
The UK has no major natural disasters, earthquakes are incredibly tiny, likewise tornados.
The UK has better overall happiness than the US.
The UK has better Education performance than the US.
The UK has better workers rights, maternity & paternity pay and minimum 28 paid days off.
The UK roads are significantly safer than US roads.
The UK banking is more technologically advanced, and consumer-friendly with fewer fees) while US banking is fragmented.
The UK has 4 of the worlds top 10 universities, despite a 5th of US population.
The UK has a higher national minium at more than twice that of the US.
The UK has faster and cheaper Internet than the US.

AI's fact checked super polite version:

• The UK offers stronger public access rights and a more permissive everyday culture in some respects, including broader access to countryside and fewer petty restrictions on pedestrian behaviour than many parts of the US.
• The UK is less politically polarised than the US, even if it still has serious political tensions of its own.
• London is one of the world’s most diverse cities, and the UK as a whole is highly multicultural in a way that is especially visible in its food, neighbourhoods, and public life.
• The UK produces a very large amount of high-quality scientific research relative to its population, making it one of the most productive research nations in the world.
• The UK remains a major book- and publishing-producing country, with a literary culture that punches well above its size.
• The UK’s dental outcomes and oral health culture are often criticised, but in many practical respects it has a more consistent public-health approach than the US.
• The UK’s life expectancy is meaningfully higher than the US’s.
• The UK has lower income inequality than the US, with a social model that generally leaves less room for extreme disparity.
• The UK food system is more tightly regulated and generally more precautionary than the US food system.
• The UK has lower knife crime, lower gun crime, and a far lower murder rate than the US.
• The UK’s overall violent-crime environment is generally safer than the US’s, even though crime patterns vary by area.
• The UK has almost no medical bankruptcies, because healthcare access is not tied to the same kind of bills and insurance structure as in the US.
• Private medical insurance in the UK is usually far cheaper than in the US.
• The UK has stronger public transport, better walkable towns and cities, and less car dependence than the US.
• UK motorway services typically offer a broader and more useful range of facilities than the average US interstate rest stop.
• UK banking is often more consumer-friendly, less fragmented, and in some ways more advanced in day-to-day usability than US banking.
• The UK has several world-class universities and an academic system that remains globally elite despite its much smaller population.
• The UK’s minimum wage and baseline employment protections are stronger than those in the US.
• The UK generally provides stronger workers’ rights, including better holiday entitlement and more generous parental leave.
• UK roads are generally safer than US roads.
• The UK has lower exposure to major natural disasters than the US.
• The UK’s broadband and mobile services are often better value and in some cases faster than those available in the US.

 

[exchemist]

The UK has more freedom than the US, J walking isn't a thing and the UK has the right to rome, crossing private land where necessary.
The UK isn't as politically divided as the US.
The UK is more diverse than the US, you can get food from over 270 different cultures in London, which is the most diverse city on Earth, a shining symbol of freedom that was once America's promise.
The UK population creates more scientific papers per capita than the US.
The UK creates more books than the US.
The UK has better teeth and oral hygiene.
The UK life expectancy is 2.7 to 4.7 years higher than the US.
The UK has lower better levels of inequality than the US.
The UK has far more stringent, higher & better food quality and safety standards than the US.
The UK has lower knife crime than the US.
The UK has far lower gun crime than the US.
The UK has a fraction of the US murder rate.
The UK has lower overall crime rates than the US.
The UK has almost no medical bankrupsies.
The UK has so much cheaper private medical insurance than the US.
The UK has far better pubic transport.
The UK has more walkable towns & cities.
The UK has better quality motorway services.
The UK has better quality petrol/gas stations.
The UK has no major natural disasters, earthquakes are incredibly tiny, likewise tornados.
The UK has better overall happiness than the US.
The UK has better Education performance than the US.
The UK has better workers rights, maternity & paternity pay and minimum 28 paid days off.
The UK roads are significantly safer than US roads.
The UK banking is more technologically advanced, and consumer-friendly with fewer fees) while US banking is fragmented.
The UK has 4 of the worlds top 10 universities, despite a 5th of US population.
The UK has a higher national minium at more than twice that of the US.
The UK has faster and cheaper Internet than the US.

Yeah, I'm not sure how helpful this kind of list really is. One can easily generate something similar for any country. And it does seem to be a bit of a random mixture of the important with the trivial. I mean, better petrol stations?

Is this an AI dump?

 

[C C]

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_

 

[Sarkus]

The UK has no major natural disasters, earthquakes are incredibly tiny, likewise tornados.

Incredibly, the UK is the country with the most tornadoes per area. But, like most things in the UK, the tornadoes are very reserved and polite about the whole thing, not wishing to create much of a stir (pun intended) or a fuss.

 

[billvon]

Incredibly, the UK is the country with the most tornadoes per area.

But fortunately in Hartford, Hereford, and Hampshire - hurricanes hardly happen.

 

[geordief]

I see Richard Osman us pleased to come from UK

Speaking to the Press Association after the ceremony, he said he was "very proud of being from Britain".

"I'm very proud of the opportunities this country gave me. I'm very proud of growing up in a country that's full of writers and funny people and creative people," he noted.

"I owe this country an awful lot, and I intend to pay as much of that back as I can"

(Is formatting on the blink)

See Bill Bailey got an award at the same time

Richard Osman and Bill Bailey receive honours from Princess Anne at Windsor

Author and former Pointless co-host Osman is honoured by Princess Anne, as is Strictly winner Bailey.

www.bbc.com

"

 

[parmalee]

Productivity is the best metric of a nation's economy. Your "quality" of life might not be the same as mine, meaning it's subjective.

For Parmalee it might be having a dog, a bicycle and being left alone. That's legit.

Phew! I'm glad I got your approval.

Seriously though: Yes, quality of life is in many respects a subjective measure; nevertheless there are plenty of objective criteria through which such can be sussed. Such criteria may not be perfect or flawless, but they can be useful and meaningful nonetheless. Elimination of near universal "stressors", for instance, reflect a higher quality of life or a higher rating on "happiness" indexes. Knowing one won't be bankrupted by medical debt; knowing one can obtain an education without going seriously into debt; knowing one can easily get from place to place without having to bear the burdens of owning and maintaining a vehicle; and so forth. These things can all be measured fairly reliably and they are to some degree determinative of one's quality of life.

Further, a culture and mindset wherein accumulation of wealth and having whole lots of shit--well beyond what one needs to feel safe and secure, that is--is considered far less important insofar as determining one's quality of life is another factor--which was kind of my point with respect to the low per capita income in Nepal. That may be harder to measure, but it's not all that terribly difficult to work out either--again, kinda my point with respect to prevalence of storage units in the US.

 

[Chris1000K]

Yeah, I'm not sure how helpful this kind of list really is. One can easily generate something similar for any country. And it does seem to be a bit of a random mixture of the important with the trivial. I mean, better petrol stations?

Is this an AI dump?

It was meant to demonstrate, that having a larger economy, doesn't mean that quality of life is necessarily better for your citizens. And yes you can generate lists between different countries, but this list highlights, how, in most the key areas of life, the US approach to corporate profits first, doesn't and isn't particularly benefitting their citizens. From health, work, food, travel, safety, education the US having a large economy isn't translating into a better quality of life for it's people compared to the UK, with it's smaller per capita GDP figure.

I would also point out as well though, that when you look at China, and you see, an incredible new road network, gleaming new cities, advanced technology everywhere, and some of if not the best high-speed rail network in the world, do you honestly think that this country is producing fewer goods and services than the US every year, especially, considering whilst it's doing amazing things in it's own country, it's also going around the world building infrastructure, like the British in the 19th century, but on a an even grander scale.

Yet, people in the US look at their GDP figure, and assume because it's the largest, their nation is somehow the most productive. The reality, is that GDP figures measure the assigned price to goods and services, to create an overall figure, they don't measure like for like how much is actually being produced. So, when Americans are comparing their economy to other countries and wondering why so many people in the US are living in poverty, and they have crumbling infrastructure, they might well wonder if the fact that other countries are assigning much lower prices to their annual production of goods and services, is giving people in the US a somewhat distorted picture of just how productive their economy really is, relative to other countries.

Americans are sold the lie of American exceptionalism, so that they don't start asking why other countries have paid holidays, no medical debt and a precautionary approach to food safety. America is a country of amazing, creative, caring, honest, kind, hard working and thoroughly decent people, that are being given a raw deal and who deserve better, but for too many unfortunately, they have just never seen how things in other countries could also make their lives so much better, if given the chance.

 

[Chris1000K]

Incredibly, the UK is the country with the most tornadoes per area. But, like most things in the UK, the tornadoes are very reserved and polite about the whole thing, not wishing to create much of a stir (pun intended) or a fuss.

I must confess, some of our strongest recorded tornadoes, have been know to knock over a plant pot here and there.

 

[TheVat]

Economic inequality causes that how?

Asked and answered, hundreds of times in various threads at SFN. That's basic knowledge one needs to bring to a good-faith chat. Which this one feels less and less to be.

 

[TheVat]

Incredibly, the UK is the country with the most tornadoes per area. But, like most things in the UK, the tornadoes are very reserved and polite about the whole thing, not wishing to create much of a stir (pun intended) or a fuss.

Your tornadoes are what we would call "dust devils" here in the Great Plains.

I remember there was an art gallery in Wichita called the Vortex, but that was more about a cultural vortex referenced in a famous beatnik poem, though perhaps there was a sly nod to actual meteorological vortices as well.