The true Islam - Misconceptions and media distortions aside

[Yosef]

I find it sad that most of what is presented about Islam to the general public in the west is negative: Some cleric orders killing of a politician (not that it does not happen among the jews or christians against muslims/arabs), Muslims are going to celebrate 11/09 (the fact is that this year's Eid al Fatir may coincide with that unfortunate memory) etc... Just misleading headlines and reporting... Good knowledge needs more effort from the readers side, I believe...

You may find it very surprising, for example, that most Muslims don't take people like Bin Laden very seriously . Many would say he is insane living in the mountains while he has the money to live a very good life in his original country (or were able to).

I am going in this thread to present articles written by Islamic thinkers about various topics / daily life issues. I hope that the knowledge would prove helpful. I hope it will help to build bridges between the people of the world.

The first article is by Muhammad Rattib al Nabulsi: Modern Islamic thinker, a man with God's light in his heart. I enjoy listening to him very much. I find his lectures very refreshing. Dr. Nabulsi CV can be found on this page.

Article:

The Prophet Muhammad's Mercy, Justice and Love (PDF file)

 

[IamJoseph]

Some cleric orders killing of a politician (not that it does not happen among the jews or christians against muslims/arabs),

The equivalence with Jews and Christians is without any credibility, and akin to the laughable statement MUSLIMS ARE AGAINST ALL FORMS OF TERRORISM.

The truth is that 'ALL' clerics spew jihad and murder [critical mass applies] - and unlike Jews and Christians - no Muslims stand up to those clerics. Bin Laden is free - but anyone making cartoon satires have their throats cut and nuns killed.

Has not the quran a command its a blessing to kill the infidels - and is that not terrorism?

 

[Sock puppet path]

A few examples of muhamed's mercy from the hadiths (accepted hadiths)
IMO Muhammed was a warlord who created a religion to strengthen his position and unite the arab tribes under his banner.

Not sure what the standard number of campaigns for a prophet of god is but 19 seems respectable

Book 019, Number 4467:

It has been narrated on the authority of Buraida (who heard the tradition from his father) that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) conducted nineteen military campaigns and he (actually) fought in eight of them

.


Look what a good sport he was he even gave women some booty if they fought with him (not as much as men though) and even though they may have slaughtered thier enemies they spared the kiddies :m:

Book 019, Number 4456:

It has been narrated on the authority of Yazid b. Hurmuz that Najda wrote to Ibn Abbas inquiring of him five things. Ibn Abbas said: If I had not the fear of committing (sin) for concealing the knowledge I would not have written to him. Najda wrote to him saying (after praising the Almighty and invoking blessings on the Prophet): Tell me whether the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) took women to participate with him in Jihad; (if he did), whether he allotted them a regular share from the booty; whether he killed the children of (the enemy in the war how long an orphan would be entitled to consideration as such and for whom the Kbums (fifth part of the booty) was booty. Ibn Abbas wrote to him: You have written asking me whether the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) took women with him to participate in Jihad. He did take them to the battle and sometimes he fought along with them. They would treat the wounded and were given a reward from the booty, but he did not assign any regular share for them. And the of Allah (may peace be upon him) did not kill the children of the enemy, so thou shouldst not kill the children. Also you have written to me asking me when the orphanhood of an orphan comes to an end. By my life, if a man has become bearded but is still incapable of getting his due from others as well u meeting his obligation towards them, (he is yet an orphan to be treated you such), but when he can look after his interests like grown-up people, he is no longer an orphan. And you have written to me inquiring about Khums as to whom it is meant for. (In this connection) we (the kinsmen of the Messenger of Allah) used to say: It is for us, but those people (i. e. Banu Umayya) have denied it to us.

Muhammed of the white thighs catches the folk of Khaibar on thier way to work and kicks some ass!!

Book 019, Number 4437:

It has been narrated on the authority of Anas that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) raided Khaibar. One morning we offered prayers in the darkness of early dawn (near Khaibar). Then the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) mounted (his horse). Abu Talha mounted his and I mounted behind Abu Talha on the same horse. The Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him) rode through the streets of Khaibar and (I rode so close to him) that my knee touched the thigh of the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him). The wrapper got aside from his thigh, and I could see its whiteness. When he entered the town, he said: God is Great. Khaibar shall face destruction. When we descend in the city-square of a people, it is a bad day for them who have been warned (and have not taken heed). He said these words thrice. The people of the town had just come out from (their houses) to go about their jobs. They said (in surprise): Muhammad has come. We captured Khaibar by force.

Book 019, Number 4438:

It has been narrated (through another chain of transmitters) on the authority of the same narrator (i. e. Anas) who said: I was riding behind Abu Talha on the day of the Battle of Khaibar (and we were riding so close to the Holy Prophet that) my foot would touch his We encountered the people at sunrise when they had come out with their axes, spades and strings driving their cattle along. They shouted (in surprise): Muhammad has come along with his force! The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Khaibar shall face destruction. Behold! when we descend in the city-square of a people, it is a bad day for those who have been warned (but have not taken heed). Allah, the Glorious and Majestic, inflicted defeat upon them.

Somebody pisses Mo off so he sends his thugs to murder him.

Book 019, Number 4436:

It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Who will kill Ka'b b. Ashraf? He has maligned Allah, the Exalted, and His Messenger. Muhammad b. Maslama said: Messenger of Allah, do you wish that I should kill him? He said: Yes. He said: Permit me to talk (to him in the way I deem fit). He said: Talk (as you like). So, Muhammad b. Maslama came to Ka'b and talked to him, referred to the old friendship between them and said: This man (i. e. the Holy Prophet) has made up his mind to collect charity (from us) and this has put us to a great hardship. When be heard this, Ka'b said: By God, you will be put to more trouble by him. Muhammad b. Maslama said: No doubt, now we have become his followers and we do not like to forsake him until we see what turn his affairs will take. I want that you should give me a loan. He said: What will you mortgage? He said: What do you want? He said: Pledge me your women. He said: You are the most handsome of the Arabs; should we pledge our women to you? He said: Pledge me your children. He said: The son of one of us may abuse us saying that he was pledged for two wasqs of dates, but we can pledge you (cur) weapons. He said: All right. Then Muhammad b. Maslama promised that he would come to him with Harith, Abu 'Abs b. Jabr and Abbad b. Bishr. So they came and called upon him at night. He came down to them. Sufyan says that all the narrators except 'Amr have stated that his wife said: I hear a voice which sounds like the voice of murder. He said: It is only Muhammad b. Maslama and his foster-brother, Abu Na'ila. When a gentleman is called at night even it to be pierced with a spear, he should respond to the call. Muhammad said to his companions: As he comes down, I will extend my hands towards his head and when I hold him fast, you should do your job. So when he came down and he was holding his cloak under his arm, they said to him: We sense from you a very fine smell. He said: Yes, I have with me a mistress who is the most scented of the women of Arabia. He said: Allow me to smell (the scent on your head). He said: Yes, you may smell. So he caught it and smelt. Then he said: Allow me to do so (once again). He then held his head fast and said to his companions: Do your job. And they killed him

The people who heard Muhammad's message went on a campaign of conquest after his death this is historical fact. Muslims always come with apologetics saying that muslims fought defensive wars but that is simply not the case. There were no muslims to defend in Cyprus, Crete, Sicily, North Africa, Persia, Spain, Afghanistan, Southern France, India, Anatolia etc. etc. All of these places were invaded by muslim armies within 100 years of muhamed's death. That is to say that the earliest muslims were violent and imperialistic. Who knows what Muhamed preached best you or people who actually heard what he said and conquered/colonized as much land as they could? Muslims even raided Rome and pillaged the church of st peter in 846 less than 200 years after the death of muhamed.

I don't give a shit if you are a muslim, what irks me is the constant preaching about how great and peaceful etc islam is, sorry but that is just bullshit from day one. I am not saying any other religion is any better (they aren't, they all divide humanity)

 

[nirakar]

I find it sad that most of what is presented about Islam to the general public in the west is negative:

Clearly Just as Bin Laden and those who think he is good like hatred of the West and wants to encourage that hatred to grow many in the West like hatred of Islam and want to encourage that hatred to grow.

The previous two posts are like Bin Laden supporters style thinking in that they want to spread hatred.

 

[Michael]

I find it sad that most of what is presented about Islam to the general public in the west is negative: Some cleric orders killing of a politician (not that it does not happen among the jews or christians against muslims/arabs),

Why did you write muslims/arabs? What does being of the Arab culture have to do with Islam?

- Monotheism is not enlightened nor logical. It's a classic example of Appeal to Authority and is a fallacy.

- The exact same is true when stating Mohammad was a "Prophet". The term Prophet is, again, just classic example of Appeal to Authority fallacy.

- The exact same is true when stating the Qur'an is "Perfect". Just another pathetic example of Appeal to Authority fallacy.



The reason why Islam is built from the ground up on a Fallacy, is because it's novel teachings are generally considered by most non-Islamic people as unenlightened and illogical. The rest is just a hack of Christianity - itself based on the same illogical premises. If Islam were truly enlightened and indeed logical then there'd be absolutely no need for terms like God, Prophet or Perfect as the concepts being taught therein would be self-evident enlightened, insightful and logical.

People who spend a lifetime following illogical unenlightened superstitious ideologies tend to become illogical unenlightened superstitious people who then form illogical unenlightened superstitious societies - See the Middle East for a primary example of such.


Unless I'm mistaken Islam is based in the intolerant ideas of only One True God, a Last Prophet and a Perfect Qur'an?

 

[Pit]

Why did you write muslims/arabs? What does being of the Arab culture have to do with Islam?

Nothing. There are Christian and Jewish Arabs, and probably Arabs of other religions. Not all Arabs are Muslim, and not all Muslims are Arabs.

- Monotheism is not enlightened nor logical. It's a classic example of Appeal to Authority and is a fallacy.

- The exact same is true when stating Mohammad was a "Prophet". The term Prophet is, again, just classic example of Appeal to Authority fallacy.

- The exact same is true when stating the Qur'an is "Perfect". Just another pathetic example of Appeal to Authority fallacy.



The reason why Islam is built from the ground up on a Fallacy, is because it's novel teachings are generally considered by most non-Islamic people as unenlightened and illogical. The rest is just a hack of Christianity - itself based on the same illogical premises. If Islam were truly enlightened and indeed logical then there'd be absolutely no need for terms like God, Prophet or Perfect as the concepts being taught therein would be self-evident enlightened, insightful and logical.

Unless I'm mistaken Islam is based in the intolerant ideas of only One True God, a Last Prophet and a Perfect Qur'an?

Any Religion is based on a couple of things that cannot be questioned. Monotheism is, by definition, the belief in only one deity. I think you are confusing intolerance with faith. It is possible to have belief in only on God while having respect for someone else's beliefs.
Also, Both Islam and Christianity are based off of Judaism. But all share common sets of beliefs, while being quite different.
And as for the "Appeal to authority" Thing, you could say that about anything where you refer to a higher authority. Apply that logic to physics:
Scientist A: "I think result X is because of theory Y by Expert Z"
Scientist B: "Stop validating what you're doing by appealing to a higher authority!"

 

[weed_eater_guy]

I haven't been on sciforums in a while, but in light of recent events I'd like to just throw this rant up and this thread feels like a good place to toss it. It'll probably be ignored, but heck, it'll make me feel a bit better.

I'm an American, and a Christian, and I would like to apologize for the conduct of my countrymen in regards to the Muslim faith. I believe it's fine for one to secure their own personal religious grounds and to choose not to agree with certain fundamental constructs of other faiths. In fact, this religious freedom is one of the very fibers upon which the United States was founded. Therefore, current American wholesale dismissal of a religion of whom some 1.3 billion people claim as their own is not only a glorious display of arrogance, but completely, one-hundred-percent hypocritical!

I'm not the only American who thinks so, but folks like me don't cause as much of a stir as the handful of supremely moronic Americans, and hence, they end up getting far more air time on television. Those are the types that present a picture of America to the world that kinda reflects Germany circa 1933 in regards to tolerance of a particular faith.

To all Muslims, please forgive Americans, most of us are not what you may see on TV. We're actually pretty good folk, albeit stranded on a continent physically distant from much of the world. And please don't let some Koran-burners in Florida and mosque protesters in New York represent a nation that is otherwise a melting pot of many immigrant cultures.

To the Americans that come on TV and provoke things, for the love of god f***ing stop it already. You've already sparked riots in other countries, let's leave it at that and pretend this all never happened, and everything will be fine. Put your earnest passion for protest into domestic matters, like our educational system, which has obviously failed to provide you with a correct or even rational world-view.

 

[IamJoseph]

Nothing. There are Christian and Jewish Arabs, and probably Arabs of other religions. Not all Arabs are Muslim, and not all Muslims are Arabs.

But all Arabians don't say its a blessing to kill infidels while eating humous, nor do they all dump mosques in other peoples' sacred sites - and boast it is a good thing and also deny their deeds. There are other far more impacting differences of people in Arabia than the Arab term. Why leave out the most juicy bits!

 

[Sock puppet path]

Clearly Just as Bin Laden and those who think he is good like hatred of the West and wants to encourage that hatred to grow many in the West like hatred of Islam and want to encourage that hatred to grow.

The previous two posts are like Bin Laden supporters style thinking in that they want to spread hatred.

There is nothing false in my post and no hate mongering. I am just sick of hearing how misunderstood islam is. My barber is a muslim and I rent half of my house out to a muslim family I don't have to hear them preach and they don't have to hear me tell them what I think of their religion, the same holds for the christians and jews I know.

 

[Yosef]

I haven't been on sciforums in a while, but in light of recent events I'd like to just throw this rant up and this thread feels like a good place to toss it. It'll probably be ignored, but heck, it'll make me feel a bit better.

I'm an American, and a Christian, and I would like to apologize for the conduct of my countrymen in regards to the Muslim faith. I believe it's fine for one to secure their own personal religious grounds and to choose not to agree with certain fundamental constructs of other faiths. In fact, this religious freedom is one of the very fibers upon which the United States was founded. Therefore, current American wholesale dismissal of a religion of whom some 1.3 billion people claim as their own is not only a glorious display of arrogance, but completely, one-hundred-percent hypocritical!

I'm not the only American who thinks so, but folks like me don't cause as much of a stir as the handful of supremely moronic Americans, and hence, they end up getting far more air time on television. Those are the types that present a picture of America to the world that kinda reflects Germany circa 1933 in regards to tolerance of a particular faith.

To all Muslims, please forgive Americans, most of us are not what you may see on TV. We're actually pretty good folk, albeit stranded on a continent physically distant from much of the world. And please don't let some Koran-burners in Florida and mosque protesters in New York represent a nation that is otherwise a melting pot of many immigrant cultures.

To the Americans that come on TV and provoke things, for the love of god f***ing stop it already. You've already sparked riots in other countries, let's leave it at that and pretend this all never happened, and everything will be fine. Put your earnest passion for protest into domestic matters, like our educational system, which has obviously failed to provide you with a correct or even rational world-view.

I want to let you know that the content of your message will be passed further by me to people here where I live. I am well aware that it doesn't take many people in order to destroy for a whole nation. My faith in God and the teachings of the Holy Quran guide me to the basic principle that all humans are equal. It is not the wealth nor the color that should make a difference. Here's what God says regarding this:

"O men! verily, we have created you of a male and a female; and we have divided you into peoples and tribes that ye might have knowledge one of another. Truly, the most worthy of honour in the sight of God is he who feareth Him most (is righteous and has reverence for God). Verily, God is Knowing, Cognisant." Holy Quran - Apartments 49:13

About attacking innocent people earning a living on a Monday morning on September 2001, God says:

"Fight in God's way with those who fight with you, but transgress not; verily, God loves not those who do transgress[sup](a)[/sup]." Holy Quran - The Heifer 2:190

The verb used in this verse is "taa'tadoo" which can be used in the context of a drunk man pushing forcefully to the ground another because the latter disagreed with him in an argument. So, putting a limit to thousands of innocent peoples' lives is not justified at all.

Yes, there is much rage in the Muslim world against the US because of its foreign policies but that doesn't justify the killing of innocent people.

[sup](a)[/sup] Commentary by translator: War is permissible in self-defense, and under well-defined limits. When undertaken, it must be pushed with vigour (but not relentlessly), but only to restore peace and freedom for the worship of God. In any case strict limits must not be transgressed: women, children, old and infirm men should not be molested, nor trees and crops cut down, nor peace withheld when the enemy comes to terms.

 

[IamJoseph]

Yes, there is much rage in the Muslim world against the US because of its foreign policies but that doesn't justify the killing of innocent people.

Exaggerated raging is an Islamic response for any grievience, and what this refers to is murder of innocent folk with no hesitance and appluading it as a blessing. But look what your Islam has done to other peoples and countries robbed, violated and desecrated by what you call holy quran - here, an Iranian in exile gives the truth with more credibility than a Muslim boasting about his own doctrines selectively. There is nothing holy or sacred Islamic soil of robbery and distortions of truth hiding behind belief doctrines:

The Spirit of Israel Lives On

Elias Bejjani - 9/18/2010

Sixty-two years ago, May 14, 1948, was the rebirth of one of the oldest nations in history, Israel. She is a unique and diverse Jewish state with a young viable democracy, in an unstable region. The circumstances surrounding Israel's re-birth was anything but simple. Regrettably, Israel’s journey from her early beginning to the present has been fraught with great suffering. It is a tribute to the indomitable spirit of the Jewish people that they persisted in their valiant struggle to re-gather again in the land of their birth. Some even go as far as saying that Israel's renaissance -- after 2,000 years or so-- was nothing short of miraculous.

The rebirth of Israel, in reality, is a culmination of thousands of years of gestation during which the Jewish people, dispersed throughout much of the world, endured immense degrees and varieties of suffering. The Nazi murderers and their collaborators capped the crimes committed against the Jewish people by brutally slaughtering six million innocent men, women and children.

When we delve into history books, we can hardly find people or countries that have gone out of existence for as long as 2,000 years and then reappeared and been reborn. Thus, it is indeed accurate to say that the rebirth of this beautiful culture, people and the land was truly a miracle.

In the ancient days, a noble and just Persian king, Cyrus the Great, rescued tens of thousands of Jewish people from captivity in a foreign land and empowered them to return home and build their sacred temple. By his action of freeing an entire people from captivity and restoring their rightful dignity, Cyrus the Great, the author of the first code of Human Rights, cemented a bond of friendship between the Jews and the Persians. It was the Just King’s way of setting the world on a course of freedom, equality, and justice for all people, irrespective of any and all considerations.

Israel has welcomed many Jews across the world, including the Iranian Jews who could no longer tolerate the rule of the oppressive venomous mullahs. These mullahs are indeed traitors to the lofty long-standing tradition and values championed by Cyrus the Great and revered by Persians throughout the ages. Israel also must be commended for affording millions of Israeli Arabs opportunities denied to them in many other lands.

The world has come to understand that the Islamic Republic is not Iran and Iranians are peace-loving, freedom seeking and a highly sophisticated people. Under the yolk of Islamism, the clerical regime in Iran has become the world's most notorious state sponsor of terrorism. Sadly, a very small number of Iranians are hoodwinked into supporting these leeches and believing in their pie-in-the-sky promises. For more than three decades, this illegitimate fantasy government of the Islamic Republic has been waging a brutal war against the entire population of Iran who has been fighting for individual and religious freedom for many years. We must always make a distinction between the people of Iran who want freedom and those who have made life intolerable and miserable for the entire population.

Regrettably, the sworn enemy of the Iranian people and the Persian heritage also supports terrorism abroad. The Islamic regime increased its support for groups that seek the destruction of Israel. These include the Lebanese Hezbollah and such Palestinian groups as Hamas, the Palestine Islamic Jihad, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command. Israel has the right to defend herself from these brewing factions who want nothing short of obliteration of the Jewish state.

“We should consider the rebirth of the Jewish State to be a blessing for the Muslims. Israel has provided the opportunity to show the world the results of the Jewish state of mind in action...a mind that yearns to be free, and a mind that longs to see that all humanity enjoys life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”

The Iranian people are immensely grateful for Israel’s fair treatment of the Iranian Baha’is in Israel. This is a further testimony to their ability and willingness to live in harmony with any and all people. In Iran, the birthplace of the Baha’i faith, Baha’is are ruthlessly subjected to a form of gradual genocide by the cruel mullahs. Some Baha’is are executed for their faith, Baha’i children are denied university studies, Baha’i holy places destroyed and even their cemeteries are bulldozed, just to cite a few examples. By contrast, Israel has provided the Baha’is freedom to care for their holy places which were established in the Holy Land during the 19th century, long before Israel’s rebirth.

“The Jewish community of Iran is one of the oldest in the Diaspora, and its historical roots reach back to the 6th century B.C.E., the time of the First Temple. Their history in the pre-Islamic period is intertwined with that of the Jews of neighboring Babylon. The Jewish colonies were scattered from centers in Babylon to Persian provinces and cities such as Hamadan and Susa. The books of Esther, Ezra, Nehemiah, and Daniel give a favorable description of the relationship of the Jews to the court of the Achaemids at Susa.”

To this day, traditional Jews pray three times a day for the Temple's restoration. During the centuries the Muslims controlled Palestine and two mosques were built on the site of the Jewish Temple. (This was no coincidence; it is a common Islamic custom to build mosques on the sites of other people's holy places.) Since any attempt to level these mosques would lead to an international Muslim holy war (jihad) against Israel, the Temple cannot be rebuilt in the foreseeable future.

“Next year in Jerusalem being the wish of Diaspora Jews, dispersed from their homeland yet acknowledging their spiritual and historical home is Israel, specifically, Jerusalem. Psalm 137 referred to as the well-known lament of the Babylonian Jews who wept 'by the rivers of Babylon' and declared, 'If I forget you, O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither.”

The perennial prayer, “Next Year in Jerusalem” has finally been answered. We, the spiritual children of Cyrus the Great pray that Israel succeeds in taking the steps necessary for making the New Jerusalem a place of hope and lasting safety for the Jewish people as well as people of all religions and those with no religion at all.

Although Israel was reborn in 1948, the Israelis were unable to settle down for long in their own homeland, to worship their God as they wished, and to live in peace. They were assaulted once again by the forces of destruction that sent them scurrying for the relative safety of other lands. These challenges continue to this day.

Now, Israel is a sovereign state but hardly safe. She is surrounded by nations and peoples who are bent on her destruction. It is tragic that her neighbors and she have not been able to find an equitable way of living side-by-side with mutual respect and in peace. I earnestly hope that ways can be found for a peaceful resolution to this destructive impasse.

A thorny issue of great concern to Israel is the Mullahs’ gallop to join the nuclear club and use the bomb as a club over the head of any nation, near or far, that stands in their way or does not accede to their demands. And it is here that some advocated a pre-emptive action by Israel, the U.S., or both to postpone, if not prevent the Mullahs from achieving their objective.

For example, attacking the soon to be online Bushehr nuclear facility alone would be a nightmare, releasing radiation into the atmosphere. "To attack Iran's nuclear facilities will not only provoke war, but it could also unleash clouds of radiation far beyond the targets and the borders of Iran," Elias Tuma, of the Arab Internet Network, told the Federal News Service last March. In addition, it is almost a certainty that the Islamic Republic would retaliate by hitting Israel's Dimona nuclear complex. No one wins.

The best strategy that stands the greatest chance of success and entails the least risk of starting a cataclysmic chain reaction is for a “coalition of the willing,” to borrow a phrase, to rally behind the Iranian opposition. It is the democracy-seeking secular Iranians who are thoroughly capable of dislodging the tyrannical Mullahs.

We should also keep in mind that Iran sits on many large and active fault lines. Of the major earthquakes that do occur in Iran, a good many are stronger than magnitude 6 on the Richter scale. Should, say, the Bushehr plant be hit by an earthquake, it will be catastrophic , not only to the entire region, but beyond.

Today, Israel has reunited Jerusalem and provided unrestricted freedom of religion. Access of all faiths to the Holy Places in the unified City of Peace is assured. The story of the rebirth of Israel is truly a miracle, yet challenges have remained, challenges that threaten the existence of this tiny ancient country filled with rich a culture. As we watch, we pray for Israel and the Jewish people, for an everlasting peace and prosperity. Let’s face it, if Israel goes down, we all go down.

Happy 62nd Birthday, Israel.


Elias Bejjani is a human rights activist, journalist & political commentator who writes for the Global Politician about issues concerning Lebanon. He is the Spokesman for the Canadian Lebanese Human Rights Federation (CLHRF) and the Media Chairman for the Canadian Lebanese Coordinating Council (LCCC)
E-Mail: phoenicia@hotmail.com LCCC Web Site: http://www.10452lccc.com

http://www.globalpolitician.com/26587-israel

 

[IamJoseph]

Also, Both Islam and Christianity are based off of Judaism. But all share common sets of beliefs, while being quite different.

I wish! Where then do we see these premises recorded in Christianity and Islam:

YOU SHALL LOVE ['respect'] THE STRANGER.

EQUAL RIGHTS FOR THE STRANGER AS THE INHABITANTS.

YOU SHALL NOT CHEAT THE STRANGER.

YOU SHALL NOT LIE TO THE STRANGER.

# A stranger is one from a different belief.

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

I like the idea of this thread but as far as this forum is concerned I don't think it's going to change many minds here but then again, I could be wrong.

Nice thread though bro.

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

Why did you write muslims/arabs? What does being of the Arab culture have to do with Islam?

Please, the association with Islam and Arabs is obvious, especially in Western culture and dialogue, infact in my brief stays and visits in the West I have met those whom used (to my face) the terms 'Arab' 'Iraqi' and 'Muslim' all interchangably. I think you're trying to play dumb here.

- Monotheism is not enlightened nor logical. It's a classic example of Appeal to Authority and is a fallacy.

Argumentum ad logicam. This argument here is absurd.

- The exact same is true when stating Mohammad was a "Prophet". The term Prophet is, again, just classic example of Appeal to Authority fallacy.

In what way is saying Muhammad (pbuh) is a prophet argumentum ad verecundiam? This sounds like an assumption and also this argument sounds absurd.

- The exact same is true when stating the Qur'an is "Perfect". Just another pathetic example of Appeal to Authority fallacy.

See above.

 

[jmpet]

First off, OBL is not insane, he is evil. And he needs to be removed from the Earth for the evil he perpetrated. Quote any of a dozen Quaranic reasons- this guy's gotta be waterboarded to death after 1,000 waterboards.

Secondly- and most important- is that the true Muslim way of life is at serious odds with reality. It is a guidebook to live a good Muslim life, but it is based on 1,500 year old customs which don't hold up today. Equal rights for women and gays immediately comes to mind.

I love the Qu'ran and hold it in as high regard as the whole Bible. But, just like the Bible, is not a perfect book.

As such, I read it with a grain of salt- as all people should do in all religions.

 

[Neverfly]

No matter how you slice it...

Killing or spewing hate because of religious beliefs is and always will be (Unless a specific deity is Proven...) an absolute absurdity.

Most of the major religions contain scriptures that are more than just intolerant- simply because a basis for such religions is that it's the correct belief and anyone not holding to it must be inferior.

And I think that most average people are not to keen on hatred or killing. They tend to 'ignore' the darker scriptures...
But those that take scripture literally, to extremes or just plain as an excuse to justify personal hatred- It's all they need.

A person does not need to be an extremist to hate another. The OP of this thread covers misinformation spread because of intolerance.

The irony is, as a non believer, I find myself even a little intolerant of religion in general.
Because religion is based on unfounded statements and faith, not evidence. And that people are so eager to kill each other or spread ignorance about each other or attack science or scientists over what I equate with Puff the Magic Dragon, elves, fairies and gnomes...

It just boggles my mind.

 

[Shadow1]

No comment, you know my answer.


we did discuss about tha before, and always same answers and opinions, why not just copy old posts and paste them here?

 

[IamJoseph]

No matter how you slice it...

Killing or spewing hate because of religious beliefs is and always will be (Unless a specific deity is Proven...) an absolute absurdity.

The real facts on the table:

We cannot prove the creator. There cannot be no creator.

That is real science.

Most of the major religions contain scriptures that are more than just intolerant- simply because a basis for such religions is that it's the correct belief and anyone not holding to it must be inferior.

Most scriptures are candy coating their preferred localised NAMES and did not offer humanity a single thing relevant to this real world: beware those who promise diamonds and virgins in the hereafter. Only one scriptures openly and boldly accounts man's poor deeds, how the ancient world really was without candy coating it, then lays down the laws how things should be. Its proof is that no other scripture gave humanity a single law - one gave all laws - exclusively. Check that and be astonished!

And I think that most average people are not to keen on hatred or killing. They tend to 'ignore' the darker scriptures...

They tend to ignore reality, candy coating it. They are capable of the worst crimes in humanity - and their history affirms this. Check that out.

But those that take scripture literally, to extremes or just plain as an excuse to justify personal hatred- It's all they need.

How does one take, LET THERE BE LIGHT - literally or figuritively? Which law is literal, LOVE THE STRANGER - or LOVE YOUR ENEMY? Why don't you speak literally!

The irony is, as a non believer, I find myself even a little intolerant of religion in general.

Non-believers are generally far better people than believers - because more than half of today's religionsts are based on robbery and manipulation of what they never observed or understand. This gives them bad doctrines of exclusive kingdom keys and no creator without Mohammed. A true scripture demands equal rghts for all, including other life forms. All animal rights laws come from one scripture - exclusively. Check that out.

Because religion is based on unfounded statements and faith,

Only false beliefs are based on faith - because they have nothing in reality square. Check that out!

not evidence.

In a true scripture, nothing can be disproven, and all gets proven as time goes on. Which scripture has already proven over 70% of its writings thus far - scientifically - which ones have proven zero? Check that out.

And that people are so eager to kill each other or spread ignorance about each other or attack science or scientists over what I equate with Puff the Magic Dragon, elves, fairies and gnomes...

"WE WILL NEVER SUPPORT THE RETURN OF JEWS TO THEIR HOMELAND BECAUSE THEY REJECTED JC" - Pope not so Pius.

"THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE TO THE UTTER DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL - WE WILL DRIVES ALL THE JEWS IN THE SEA" - Islamic terror.


Chances are, your parents remained silence of these crimes - and their children either became atheists - or even worse hateful than their parents: choose one. The fundamental things apply.

 

[IamJoseph]

First off, OBL is not insane, he is evil.

I'm on the same page. He belongs in Gitmo, but he conned America with YES WE CAN bytes.

Equal rights for women and gays immediately comes to mind.

Wrong. There is no such thing as Islamic law. Prove one such law? Gay rights is not a moral/ethical issue but an existential one: fact is, if 20% of the pop became gay, humanity would not survive after a few generations. Gay rights will condone incest and beastiality - the same principles impact in a lawcourt. If you care for gays, then know that gay rights is good for gays, equaly gay rights is not good for gays.

I love the Qu'ran and hold it in as high regard as the whole Bible. But, just like the Bible, is not a perfect book.

.

I found infidels nice people, and those who teach it is a blessing to kill them must be confronted head-on, or be deemed cowards and criminals. I don't agree that only Islam can prevail in Arabia and this should be confronted head on. I dont see Arabia being exclusive to Islam - many others predate both Islam and the Arab race in this region. Omissions will get you wherever you want to go.

 

[Michael]

Please, the association with Islam and Arabs is obvious, especially in Western culture and dialogue, infact in my brief stays and visits in the West I have met those whom used (to my face) the terms 'Arab' 'Iraqi' and 'Muslim' all interchangably. I think you're trying to play dumb here.

No, I'm saying being Arab is not the same as being Muslim. Arab is a culture. Muslim is a person who followed the religion Islam. I can see how the mistake can be made as an Arab Muslim who "believes with all her heart" - is almost always raised to believe with all her heart exactly what she does.

Argumentum ad logicam. This argument here is absurd.

I don't think you understand my point.l It is an Appeal to Authority to say something is true by appealing to someone in a position in authority.

I'll give you an example. The Prophet Ron Hubbard (pbuh) said Thetan's are Alien's Souls that interact with your body and made you feel bad because they were nuked by an Alien Overlord named Xenu and are still a little pissy about that. I say he's a kook as there is no good evidence of that being true. His followers say Ron's a Prophet and put little titles like (pbuh) to emphasize "His" Prophetness. Because he was a Prophet, they maintain, what he says must be true. THAT act is Appealing to Authority on their part. Prophet Ron (pbuh) also Appeals to Authority when he says his Propheses are true because he claims to gain his knowledge from Xenu (actually little invisible Aliens no one but Prophet Ron can see because again, there's no good evidence - the argument Prophet Ron was making is also a logical fallacy.

In what way is saying Muhammad (pbuh) is a prophet argumentum ad verecundiam? This sounds like an assumption and also this argument sounds absurd.

I'll give you an example. The Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) said he flew up to Heaven on a winged fairy creature and took a look around at seeing a God. I'd say he was a kook but I don't actually believed Mohammad existed. Regardless, there is no good evidence of that being true. His followers (you) say Mohammad was a Prophet and put little titles like (pbuh) to emphasize "His" Prophetness. Because he was a Prophet, you maintain, what he says must be true. THAT act is Appealing to Authority on you part. Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) also Appeals to Authority when he says his Propheses are true because he claims to gain his knowledge from Allah (actually little invisible Angels no one but Prophet Mohammad can see) because again, there's no good evidence - the argument Prophet Mohammad was making (if he exited which was probably not the case) is also a logical fallacy.

See above.

Again, Muslims make the argument that the Qur'an is "Perfect" because it came from Mohammad who was a Prophet who heard a God. All of which is one big logical circle jerk.

What year was the Qur'an made up in again?

I will agree the Qur'an is a perfect waste of an afternoon. If you want to read fantasy I can suggest something better.