О.к.
The role of personality in history.
- Thread starter ольга
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exchemist
Valued Senior Member
This thread seems to be about the Great Man Theory of History: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_man_theory
a typically Romantic c.19th concept that is generally contested today.
a typically Romantic c.19th concept that is generally contested today.
It's a good article. Indeed, look at Hitler, or at some of the current leaders - what is outstanding about them? Nothing, gray mediocrity, but some almost pray for them.
I kind of think that any leader that rises to power, good or bad, is a symptom of something else going on with that society, in that given time. Hitler seemed to be a symptom of something deeper. And I believe more than anything, he was feared by many and that got him elected. Have you heard of the 'cult of personality?' That has something to do with it, more than just an individual's charisma or personality style.
Cult of personality - Wikipedia
exchemist
Valued Senior Member
Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Mao Tse Tung, Trump, are all examples of that. It seems to me one advantage of a constitutional monarchy, such as we have in many European countries, is that it makes a cult of personality less likely to develop.I kind of think that any leader that rises to power, good or bad, is a symptom of something else going on with that society, in that given time. Hitler seemed to be a symptom of something deeper. And I believe more than anything, he was feared by many and that got him elected. Have you heard of the 'cult of personality?' That has something to do with it, more than just an individual's charisma or personality style.
Cult of personality - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
So, going with this, it doesn't seem to me like Trump, Mussolini and Hitler are the sole causes of why a society votes the way it does, they're more of a symptom of it, imo. A reaction to it, even. Obviously, many Americans didn't vote for Trump, but the fact that many did, it's not because Trump was so charming and convincing, as much as he may have simply been at the right place, at the right time. The ''cult'' boosts up the personality, in other words. I don't think that one person can create (from scratch) an entire cult around him/herself. Even Taylor Swift has an amazing PR firm! lol
Having said that, I'm not saying we shouldn't blame leaders whom we didn't vote for or who we see as a problem for democracy, but that person got there because of the ideology already circulating in the air, before they were elected. That's a much tougher problem to solve, if it's even solvable.
Согласна. Для того, чтобы тот или иной лидер смог "укорениться", в обществе должна быть благоприятная "почва" для этого. И да, это идеология. О культе личности - Сергей Довлатов:"Мы без конца ругаем товарища Сталина, и, разумеется, за дело. И всё же я хочу спросить - а кто написал четыре миллиона доносов?" Вы думаете, это только советские люди были такими? Как бы не так. На улице Rue Loriston в Париже уже через месяц после оккупации на дверях гестапо висела медная табличка:"Доносов не принимаем" - слишком много было доносов. "Гордые", "просвещённые" французы написали на своих соплеменников столько всякого, что даже немцы взвыли. Вы думаете, что если сейчас поставить тайные кабинки для доносов, туда бы очередь не стояла? Ага -ага...
You bring up good points. How can a society create free thinking citizens that don’t blindly follow and give their allegiance to the wrong leaders? I’m not really looking for an answer. Just throwing it out there into the great void. (But feel free if you have any good ideas.)
exchemist
Valued Senior Member
Yes I agree that modern far right populism has arisen, not due to one man, but to various circumstances: the stagnation of living standards and the "awakening", due to the rise of internet social media, of an ill-educated underclass who see themselves as victims and look for scapegoats in the form of demonised "elites" and/or migrants, who are seen as threatening their cultural values and worsening their economic plight. Those conditions make the time ripe for a Trump, an Orban to exploit, just as Hitler did almost a century ago when the Jews were the scapegoats.
Cometh the hour, cometh the man.
Yep, agreed. One of the main challenges is how to address the root causes of how we (as a nation) got here, without letting fear or resentment get in the way (which is tough, because we're all human), and that energy in turn, ends up creating new policies. I feel that the American election system has been going like this for a long time - this push/pull dynamic and it's just creating more division.
''Cometh the hour, cometh the man.'' - how do we make sure going forward that the right leadership rises to greet that hour?
exchemist
Valued Senior Member
The rise of populist nationalism is not confined to the USA. But certainly your system doesn't help. My own view is the US needs to get the money out of its politics. In other countries there are strict limits on political funding to reduce the degree to which political influence is bought. I feel a lot of the justified cynicism about US poltics is directly or indirectly attributable to the absurd sums of money required.Yep, agreed. One of the main challenges is how to address the root causes of how we (as a nation) got here, without letting fear or resentment get in the way (which is tough, because we're all human), and that energy in turn, ends up creating new policies. I feel that the American election system has been going like this for a long time - this push/pull dynamic and it's just creating more division.
''Cometh the hour, cometh the man.'' - how do we make sure going forward that the right leadership rises to greet that hour?
More generally I feel there needs to be better control of social media. At the moment these platforms have very limited responsibility for policing the veracity of what they publish. But in the end one needs good leaders rather than congenital liars and crooks in charge. There has been a collapse in moral standards. (Curiously, I suspect this is one reason why people seem to pay more attention to alternative moral standard bearers like the pope than they used to when I was younger.)
У нас на уроках истории, нам говорили, что Гитлеру на самом деле просто нужны были еврейские деньги. А поскольку все банкиры были евреями, то и повод отнять эти деньги был придуман.
I love that idea - money needs to be out of politics. The temptation to play favorites, to take bribes, to do things that are just downright immoral, will always sway elections. I want to believe that if we ran for office, we wouldn't be affected, but we're only human. Maybe that's why I have never wanted to go into politics, although the drama looks kind of fun. There's this thing called a mirror, and I'd have to look at myself every day.
This thoughtful quote seems to fit here ''All that is necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing.'' - Edmund Burke
Of course, the non-sexist version would include 'women' and not just men, in that context, but Burke was a product of his time with prevailing gender norms and all that. I won't hold it against him.
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exchemist
Valued Senior Member
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Wizard of Whatever
Registered Senior Member
As far as I can tell the one man most responsible for the state of the world today is Woodrow Wilson and his entry into WW1. No way to tell if opposite would have been better or worse, too many variables.
Wizard of Whatever
Registered Senior Member
I think we all know where we are (in deep doo-doo). I believe the questions are not how we got here, but where do we want to go and how do we get there.Yep, agreed. One of the main challenges is how to address the root causes of how we (as a nation) got here, without letting fear or resentment get in the way (which is tough, because we're all human), and that energy in turn, ends up creating new policies. I feel that the American election system has been going like this for a long time - this push/pull dynamic and it's just creating more division.
''Cometh the hour, cometh the man.'' - how do we make sure going forward that the right leadership rises to greet that hour?
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
Wait until trump pisses off and we will get peace, world peace. If not, the Christian end times already happened and failed.
Wizard of Whatever
Registered Senior Member
All the "great men" whether good or bad are just manifestations of the will of the masses.
Тогда встречный вопрос: вы считаете, что это массы диктуют элитам свою волю, или элиты формируют у масс желательные для них предпочтения, и задают направление движения?
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
If there were 'elites' they wouldn't care what the masses desire. It's just power and money.