The question for atheists is: if you believe that the soul does not exist, then how does a human differ from an Al robot?

The question for atheists is: if you believe that the soul does not exist, then how does a human differ from an Al robot?​

There are two ways to look at this. One is to say that it's just a matter of degree.

Another way is to ask, how are humans like an AI robot? Even ignoring the concept of a "soul" there are still many differences.

Without sight, how are a bird and an airplane different? There are many differences. How are they the same? They're not, really.
 

The question for atheists is: if you believe that the soul does not exist, then how does a human differ from an Al robot?​

There are two ways to look at this. One is to say that it's just a matter of degree.

Another way is to ask, how are humans like an AI robot? Even ignoring the concept of a "soul" there are still many differences.

Without sight, how are a bird and an airplane different? There are many differences. How are they the same? They're not, really.
Самолёт пока не может летать так, как это делает птица. А в будущем? Возможно будет создать птицу-робота? И чем она будет отличаться от настоящей, кроме материала, из которого она сделана?
 
As said, it was an uncharitable reading of what she was saying, and in post #19 she confirmed my more charitable reading.
Strange that she endorsed your "P2. The soul does not exist."

I am confident that, in reality, she does not endorse that premise. If I were you, I'd be careful about taking her one-line comment "Thank you, Sarkus! You got it right." as applying to the entirety of your post, which she quoted and only replied to with that one line.

In reality, I think she was merely thanking you because you seemed to be taking her side in a battle she felt like she was losing.

The irony is that you don't care a jot about giving Olga your moral support. You have a rather different agenda. The difference between Olga and me, when it comes to you, is that I understand what you're trying to do and why.
So, given that she has confirmed that she didn't mean it in the uncharitable way you read it, I guess your analysis, and conclusion, is moot.
No. My analysis, as usual, is accurate, while yours is more about pretending that the facts are in your favour, because you think that lends support to your agenda.
Just saying.
Yeah. You're always "just saying". You can't help yourself. You're practically a stalker.
Note, dear readers, how he doesn't want to have a discussion...
Note, dear readers, that I didn't say that. Sarkus wants you to accept his twisted version of what I actually wrote.
 
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Strange that she endorsed your "P2. The soul does not exist."
??? And now with the rather bizarre interpretation, rather than just uncharitable.
All she was confirming was my framing of the argument underpinning her question, a question that effectively asks: "IF P2 is the case then the either you think P1 is false or the conclusion is true. If you don't think the conclusion is true, why is P1 wrong?"
But, heck, you're really just trolling, aren't you.
I am confident that, in reality, she does not endorse that premise. If I were you, I'd be careful about taking her one-line comment "Thank you, Sarkus! You got it right." as applying to the entirety of your post, which she quoted and only replied to with that one line.

In reality, I think she was merely thanking you because you seemed to be taking her side in a battle she felt like she was losing.
Frankly I don't give a shit about what you think her motives are, or that you think she means something different than what she has confirmed it to mean. I'm sorry that what people mean isn't always what you want it to mean, or what you think they should be saying so that it gives you the chance to score points. Sometimes people mean what they say they mean. And I'll accept them at their word until they say otherwise.
And it's not about a battle, JamesR. It's about trying to have discussions with people. And to do that you need to listen to what they have to say, and accept that they mean what they tell you, rather than you try to force your interpretation upon them, just so you can then have a go at beating it down.
The irony is that you don't care a jot about giving Olga your moral support. You have a rather different agenda. The difference between Olga and me, when it comes to you, is that I understand what you're trying to do and why.
It's not about moral support. It's about trying to understand what Olga was trying to say, and about not assuming an uncharitable interpretation when there are other more charitable ones to take. That you can't be bothered to listen to them, and feel the need to insist that people mean what you want them to mean, is frankly just trolling on your part.
No. My analysis, as usual, is accurate, while yours is more about pretending that the facts are in your favour, because you think that lends support to your agenda.
Oh, good grief. Stop trolling. Stop gaslighting. Stop lying.

Dear readers, when you stop laughing at his Trumpian ego on full show, you'll note that he has offered nothing to actually support that Olga was not confirming my more charitable interpretation, but instead he is just attacking the person. Both people, actually. Ah, well.
Yeah. You're always "just saying". You can't help yourself. You're practically a stalker.
Nah, more like just picking up litter.
Note, dear readers, that I didn't say that. Sarkus wants you to accept his twisted version of what I actually wrote.
:rolleyes:
Note, dear readers, that when I asked him some on-topic questions, JamesR literally said: "I'm not interested in having a discussion with you about this, either."
Now, it's true that in the snipped quote of mine I did omit the "with you", and JamesR's editing does make it seem that I am saying that he doesn't want a discussion at all on this topic. But, what's that? He omitted some of what I actually typed? Nooo! Say it isn't so! Oh, but that's right: you could just click the link to see what I did write, so that's okay, isn't it? I mean, only posting half of what someone writes, because, I mean, surely the other half doesn't alter the tone, implication, message of the first half, right?

So, dear reader, what I actually wrote was this: "Note, dear readers, how he doesn't want to have a discussion, yet responds anyway, only to then appear scared to engage in discussion with someone where he might well be out of his depth"
To any reasonable reader it is clear that I am referring to discussion with me and not to all discussion. E.g. the reference to him responding anyway (to my post), and only then to appear scared to engage in discussion with someone where he might well be out of his depth - i.e. me.
But he snipped that part out. Why would he do that, dear reader? Well, JamesR has recent form for only posting bits of what people have said, in an effort to paint that person in a bad light. Shocking, isn't it. I mean, it's not as though he's deliberately looking for things he can only quote half of and then interpret in the most uncharitable light so as to try to score points in his "battle" (or whatever he thinks discussion is supposed to be), is it?

Now, to get this back on topic, and for when you ever want to actually discuss the topic:
What differences do you think there are between an AI robot and a human, assuming the future, as per Olga's first post? You say there are some obvious differences, so they are...? What?

Thank you for your attention to this matter.
 
The question for atheists is: if you believe that the soul does not exist, then how does a human differ from an Al robot? Or will differ in the future.

We're assured by advocates of the illusion theory of consciousness that the brain merely pretends that there are phenomenal experiences (manifestations) associated with its processing of sensory information and its own thoughts.

This constant make-believe of ours (and presumably animals in general) was introduced by evolution, a trait which apparently flourished due to unclear benefits.

Maybe it just makes biological entities feel special (and that has survival value), where "stuff being shown or presented" seems magical and leads to the idea of a soul. In reality, there's no magic because the manifested images, sounds, odors, and feeling are not truly there -- again, our neural configurations are just pretending that they are, and consequently our bodies talk about it, too.

So the trick to bringing about machines that act like they have souls (or whatever) is just designing them to indulge in similar universally coordinated make-believe like that:

"Hey, I'm experiencing a qualia infested, spatially extended image of a pink Cadillac parked in that house's driveway."

"So am I. So am I. Isn't it great to not be a philosophical zombie?"

"But p-zombies still act like there is presented content in their brain activity corresponding to thoughts, perceptions, feelings. There's no outward behavioral difference between them and us."

"Yes, but we're special because we do privately have those magical manifestations!"

"Quite!"

_
 
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Sarkus:
??? And now with the rather bizarre interpretation, rather than just uncharitable.
All she was confirming was my framing of the argument underpinning her question, a question that effectively asks: "IF P2 is the case then the either you think P1 is false or the conclusion is true. If you don't think the conclusion is true, why is P1 wrong?"
If she actually cares about what you wrote at all, she can say what she was or was not agreeing with you about. Your analysis on this question is likely to display just a bit of bias.
But, heck, you're really just trolling, aren't you.
Says the guy who jumped into this thread to try to troll me (again). Says the guy who stalks around the forum, only commenting on my posts, and only to point out fictitious "errors" in them.
Frankly I don't give a shit about what you think her motives are...
You don't give a shit about her. You're fixated on me and on the grudge you bear against me. You're only in this thread to try to attack me, again. It's what you spend most of your time doing these days, on this forum. Looking for pissy reasons to stick your beaky nose in to make some kind of pedantic "correction" that makes you feel like some kind of important man.
I'm sorry that what people mean isn't always what you want it to mean...
No you're not.
Sometimes people mean what they say they mean.
And sometimes they don't. And other times it's a more complicated mix.
And I'll accept them at their word until they say otherwise.
You'll accept them at their word while it suits your purposes to do that.
And it's not about a battle, JamesR. It's about trying to have discussions with people.
Oh, with people. I see. Which people are you having a discussion with, in this thread, pray tell?
And to do that you need to listen to what they have to say, and accept that they mean what they tell you, rather than you try to force your interpretation upon them, just so you can then have a go at beating it down.
Why don't you accept that I mean and what I tell you, rather than trying to force your interpretation on me?

Double standard? Or is all that stuff about accepting that people mean what they tell you just empty words?
It's not about moral support.
Oh, I get that. You don't do any of that "relating to people like a normal person" stuff.
It's about trying to understand what Olga was trying to say, and about not assuming an uncharitable interpretation when there are other more charitable ones to take.
I can practically feel the empathy flowing out of you in Olga's direction.
That you can't be bothered to listen to them, and feel the need to insist that people mean what you want them to mean, is frankly just trolling on your part.
You know, Olga and I managed to have some back-and-forth conversation in this thread. That's more than you have managed.
Dear readers, when you stop laughing at his Trumpian ego on full show, you'll note that he has offered nothing to actually support that Olga was not confirming my more charitable interpretation, but instead he is just attacking the person. Both people, actually. Ah, well.
Do you think you've won the crowd over with your little speech, Sarkus? Do you feel like this is going well for you? Like the last six or seven times you've pulled this sort of stunt?
Note, dear readers, that when I asked him some on-topic questions, JamesR literally said: "I'm not interested in having a discussion with you about this, either."
Correct. Who wants to chat with a terrible bore who has a chip on his shoulder? Not me.
Now, it's true that in the snipped quote of mine I did omit the "with you"...
Yes, it's true, folks!
Well, JamesR has recent form for only posting bits of what people have said...
There's no need to quote irrelevant fluff. Just concentrate on the points I want to respond to, while being careful not to misrepresent the person I am replying to.

Factors like intellectual honesty, basic human decency, an implicit acknowledgment that I'm addressing real human beings, etc, all factor into how I construct my replies to what people write. And I expect that decent people will apply the same courtesies in return. Not everyone is a decent person, however; one has to be a realist about these things.
Now, to get this back on topic, and for when you ever want to actually discuss the topic:
What differences do you think there are between an AI robot and a human, assuming the future, as per Olga's first post? You say there are some obvious differences, so they are...? What?
I have no interested in discussing these matters with you. I'm pretty sure I was clear the first time I told you this. What's wrong with you?
 
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HUmans are sentient we can THINK ,robots cant.
How do you identify thinking? That is, what tests do you use to decide whether something or someone is thinking?

Can you give me an example of how your criteria would apply to, say, deciding whether ChatGPT thinks or doesn't think?
its just a machine bucket of bolts
Isn't a human being just a machine bucket of flesh and blood?
 
How do you identify thinking? That is, what tests do you use to decide whether something or someone is thinking?

Can you give me an example of how your criteria would apply to, say, deciding whether ChatGPT thinks or doesn't think?

Isn't a human being just a machine bucket of flesh and blood?
Человек учится у других людей. ИИ тоже учится у людей, но в отличии от человека, он учится у гораздо большего числа людей. В плане знаний он переплюнет любого человека. И ему не нужно тратить много ресурсов для поддержания своего тела. Ему также не нужны стимулы в виде эмоций. Он бесстрастен, и поэтому не делает ошибок. Все его ошибки - это ошибки людей, загрузившие в него неправильную информацию. Скоро он научится их определять, и отфильтровывать.
 
I have no interested in discussing these matters with you. I'm pretty sure I was clear the first time I told you this. What's wrong with you?
But you'd rather continue the "discussion" with me about everything else other than the actual topic???
How truly bizarre.

I'll post the questions again, so that you or anyone else can answer them without discussion, or so that you can discuss them with someone else:
What differences do you think there are between an AI robot and a human, assuming the future, as per Olga's first post? You say there are some obvious differences, so they are...? What?
 
But you'd rather continue the "discussion" with me about everything else other than the actual topic???
How truly bizarre.

I'll post the questions again, so that you or anyone else can answer them without discussion, or so that you can discuss them with someone else:
What differences do you think there are between an AI robot and a human, assuming the future, as per Olga's first post? You say there are some obvious differences, so they are...? What?
There are two ways to look at this. One is to say that it's just a matter of degree.

Another way is to ask, how are humans like an AI robot? Even ignoring the concept of a "soul" there are still many differences.

Without sight, how are a bird and an airplane different? There are many differences. How are they the same? They're not, really.
 
There are two ways to look at this. One is to say that it's just a matter of degree.

Another way is to ask, how are humans like an AI robot? Even ignoring the concept of a "soul" there are still many differences.

Without sight, how are a bird and an airplane different? There are many differences. How are they the same? They're not, really.
To the first, yeah, matters of degree.
To the second, I'm not sure your example of bird and airplane is too good, as they are very different: we don't travel inside birds. ;)
But the question (from the OP) is also not about the differences now but the differences in the future. One can imagine that an AI robot is indistinguishable from a human in terms of appearance, looks, etc. But then, going down that route, the question might be better frames as "what needs to be the same for it to be considered human?"
Appearance? Biological? Organic brain?
 
To the first, yeah, matters of degree.
To the second, I'm not sure your example of bird and airplane is too good, as they are very different: we don't travel inside birds. ;)
But the question (from the OP) is also not about the differences now but the differences in the future. One can imagine that an AI robot is indistinguishable from a human in terms of appearance, looks, etc. But then, going down that route, the question might be better frames as "what needs to be the same for it to be considered human?"
Appearance? Biological? Organic brain?
It doesn't matter if my example "is a good one". It's just an example. Pick another but improved AI in the future can be argued as a matter of degree. There is no answer. Does it look like a human...matter of degree. Is it a sentient being? The definition of that can be argued forever. Organic brain, humans have them, will AI in the future. Again, when you control all the definitions and what will maybe happen in the future, you can argue for anything.

I don't see an AI robot being human-like to the degree where a human can tell them apart. Do you? There is the Turing test to see if you can tell the difference in responses.

Since this is posted under "Religion" I suspect someone wants to argue about "soul" and that's been done to death for thousands of years so I'm nt sure what the real point is, other than semantics.
 
To the first, yeah, matters of degree.
To the second, I'm not sure your example of bird and airplane is too good, as they are very different: we don't travel inside birds. ;)
But the question (from the OP) is also not about the differences now but the differences in the future. One can imagine that an AI robot is indistinguishable from a human in terms of appearance, looks, etc. But then, going down that route, the question might be better frames as "what needs to be the same for it to be considered human?"
Appearance? Biological? Organic brain?
Я думаю, неорганический ИИ будет работать быстрее. Как сейчас компьютеры вычисляют намного быстрее человека. Что общего? Это будет зависеть от заложенной в робота программы. Наша программа - выживание. Мозг обрабатывает много внутренней и внешней информации для того, чтобы наш организм нормально функционировал. Роботу, для поддержания своего аппарата, такой сложной системы не требуется. Опять всплывает вопрос о свободе воли. А есть ли она у нас? Или наш организм просто действует согласно заложенной в нём программы? Согласно теории эволюции, никакой свободы воли нет, и быть не может. Обычная программа. Но на это мало кто согласится, всем хочется считать себя кем то большим, чем просто биороботом. Тогда вводите новые сущности, кроме безвольной материи, подчиняющейся программе, созданной эволюцией. На двух стульях усидеть не получится. Тут либо душа, управляющая телом, и имеющая собственные желания. Либо все желания диктуются потребностями тела, и никакой свободы воли в этом нет, и никакой воли, тоже нет. Вот единственное отличие, которое могут назвать - наличие у человека собственных желаний, собственной свободы воли, и отсутствие таковых у робота.
 
We're assured by advocates of the illusion theory of consciousness that the brain merely pretends that there are phenomenal experiences (manifestations) associated with its processing of sensory information and its own thoughts.

This constant make-believe of ours (and presumably animals in general) was introduced by evolution, a trait which apparently flourished due to unclear benefits.

Maybe it just makes biological entities feel special (and that has survival value), where "stuff being shown or presented" seems magical and leads to the idea of a soul. In reality, there's no magic because the manifested images, sounds, odors, and feeling are not truly there -- again, our neural configurations are just pretending that they are, and consequently our bodies talk about it, too.

So the trick to bringing about machines that act like they have souls (or whatever) is just designing them to indulge in similar universally coordinated make-believe like that:

"Hey, I'm experiencing a qualia infested, spatially extended image of a pink Cadillac parked in that house's driveway."

"So am I. So am I. Isn't it great to not be a philosophical zombie?"

"But p-zombies still act like there is presented content in their brain activity corresponding to thoughts, perceptions, feelings. There's no outward behavioral difference between them and us."

"Yes, but we're special because we do privately have those magical manifestations!"

"Quite!"

_
А свобода воли у них есть?(кстати, что это такое?)
 
It doesn't matter if my example "is a good one". It's just an example.
If it's not a good example (and it's not - as it misses the intent of the question) then it reduces the strength of the argument is it offered in support of. To the point of being useless, or even worse, detrimental to the point one is trying to make.
Pick another but improved AI in the future can be argued as a matter of degree.
That I do agree with, but...
There is no answer. Does it look like a human...matter of degree. Is it a sentient being? The definition of that can be argued forever. Organic brain, humans have them, will AI in the future. Again, when you control all the definitions and what will maybe happen in the future, you can argue for anything.
... the question can then be reframed to say that if there is a world in which it might happen that AI becomes indistinguishable from humans, in that world, would the "soul" be a meaningful distinguishing feature (assuming for argument's sake that the soul is considered an acceptable concept), or would there being no difference not actually show that there is nothing to which a "soul" can be attached. I.e. would it in effect disprove the soul?
As I alluded to earlier, at that point, if one believes that humans have souls and AIs do not, then either it proves that the soul is an empty concept, or it proves that AIs also get these "souls". At least as far as the real world goes. If heaven exists and you find that only humans get in and AIs don't, then obviously at least God is still able to identify a difference! ;)

So I see this question only being of interest at the extreme edge of where humans and AI/robots are otherwise indistinguishable, where tech advancement is so far that it makes the "obvious" differences disappear.
I don't see an AI robot being human-like to the degree where a human can tell them apart. Do you? There is the Turing test to see if you can tell the difference in responses.
I don't know. I find it an interesting thought experiment to consider whether there are any meaningful differences at that point, how it plays with the concept of soul, with morals, ethics etc. At some point chatbots will become indistinguishable. I think an AI might exist that becomes indistinguishable in terms of intelligence, ability to talk, have a personality etc, but with regard looking and resembling humans, one would have to ask why we would go down that path in the first place, when there are clearly better role-specific designs.
But could it happen? Maybe.
Since this is posted under "Religion" I suspect someone wants to argue about "soul" and that's been done to death for thousands of years so I'm nt sure what the real point is, other than semantics.
That could be said about most subjects under the sun. But, here we still are. ;)
 
Я думаю, неорганический ИИ будет работать быстрее. Как сейчас компьютеры вычисляют намного быстрее человека. Что общего? Это будет зависеть от заложенной в робота программы. Наша программа - выживание. Мозг обрабатывает много внутренней и внешней информации для того, чтобы наш организм нормально функционировал. Роботу, для поддержания своего аппарата, такой сложной системы не требуется. Опять всплывает вопрос о свободе воли. А есть ли она у нас? Или наш организм просто действует согласно заложенной в нём программы? Согласно теории эволюции, никакой свободы воли нет, и быть не может. Обычная программа. Но на это мало кто согласится, всем хочется считать себя кем то большим, чем просто биороботом. Тогда вводите новые сущности, кроме безвольной материи, подчиняющейся программе, созданной эволюцией. На двух стульях усидеть не получится. Тут либо душа, управляющая телом, и имеющая собственные желания. Либо все желания диктуются потребностями тела, и никакой свободы воли в этом нет, и никакой воли, тоже нет. Вот единственное отличие, которое могут назвать - наличие у человека собственных желаний, собственной свободы воли, и отсутствие таковых у робота.
The question of "free will" depends on how you define the term.
If you define it as being free from either randomness or deterministic processes (i.e. when you get A you always get B) then most would probably agree that such "free will" does not exist.
However, if you define it as behaving according to one's reason, values, thoughts, etc, then this free-will would seem to very much exist.

The problem here is that an AI, at least one that is sufficiently advanced, would seem to fall into the category of things that would appear to exhibit such free-will. They might even appear to exhibit consciousness. And as such, unless we have some way of identifying whether the exihibition of such things is based on them really having it or just the appearance of having it, one would first need to get into the hazy world of defining it far more exactly. And then there's a danger of defining it in a manner that deliberately excludes artificial things from having it, basing the definitions not on what it is but what is allowed to have it. So it's a tangled web.
Heck, you can't even show that someone else has free-will, or is conscious. You simply have to assume it. So how good are we ever going to get at trying to prove one way or another whether an AI has it.
 
The question of "free will" depends on how you define the term.
If you define it as being free from either randomness or deterministic processes (i.e. when you get A you always get B) then most would probably agree that such "free will" does not exist.
However, if you define it as behaving according to one's reason, values, thoughts, etc, then this free-will would seem to very much exist.

The problem here is that an AI, at least one that is sufficiently advanced, would seem to fall into the category of things that would appear to exhibit such free-will. They might even appear to exhibit consciousness. And as such, unless we have some way of identifying whether the exihibition of such things is based on them really having it or just the appearance of having it, one would first need to get into the hazy world of defining it far more exactly. And then there's a danger of defining it in a manner that deliberately excludes artificial things from having it, basing the definitions not on what it is but what is allowed to have it. So it's a tangled web.
Heck, you can't even show that someone else has free-will, or is conscious. You simply have to assume it. So how good are we ever going to get at trying to prove one way or another whether an AI has it.
Я могу доказать, что любое наше действие определяется программой выживания. Никакой свободы в этом нет. Можете назвать мне какое-нибудь, а я вам докажу?
 
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