The perfect Society...

I read in a book called "Understanding Comics" by Scott McCloud that his personal definition of "art" is pretty much anything you do that isn't immediately related to survival or reporduction. The way you twirl your hair, the way you hum a tune, the clothes you choose to wear are all an "artistic" statement about certain things about you that you broadcast to the world at large. It's not a perfect definition by any means, and shouldn't necessarily be taken as 100% absolute in every situation, but it's a good rule fo thumb, IMHO.

But, to return to the topic at hand, I don't think that the only way we can maintain our current level of technological and scientific advancement is to engage in armed conflict with ourselves. In truth, it hasn't really been that way since WWII. True, there is quite a lot of research and advancement being made by military contractor companies, but they ain't necessarily the crest of the wave anymore.

Killing each other is just old hat, y'know? Is that sort of mentality really the best we can do as a species? It's just sad.
 
utopia has to start with a reevaluation of the state of the society we live in. to go into the technical aspects before working out new paradigms of human and social interactions is premature. a perfect system of economics and governence would hardly be useful if the individuals that it engages, are flawed

the establishment of most forms of government throughout history has had in its essence, a utopian vision. peeking out the window would show that this has yet to be attained.

for starters lets talk about women. what is their role in society? (western culture)
are they oppressed? if we reverse the way we raise kids, can we have dynamic, ambitious, intellectual, athletic females and shy, retarded males subserviant to females. (i think this has already happened) :)
conditioning humans to accept bogus limitations with regards to their potential is a disservice to our advancement as a species.
the differences b/w sexes are real but the emphasis should not be towards accentuating them with false notions

??
 
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Originally posted by NenarTronian
What would it be like? What government system would it be, or would it be a new one? How would the nation/city be run? I'm a fan of sci-fi so i'm really interested in how a realistic Utopia would work.
Here's a good read (huge though): Plato's Republic
Plato was the first dude we know of who gave serious (and philosophical of course) thought to Utopias and how they'd work. Way to go, Pla-to!


The dream of one man can be the nightmare of many others.Hitler was an utopist.
By definition no utopia is realistic.
Plato's Republica is the first fascist fantasy.
 
Definately give a look through of Plato's Republic.

It's not hard to understand and it's really interesting. I've gotten through about a quater of it recently.

Sorry. ;)
 
Originally posted by grazzhoppa
Definately give a look through of Plato's Republic.
It's not hard to understand and it's really interesting. I've gotten through about a quater of it recently.
Sorry. ;)


I read the whole book years ago. Maybe you should read it with critical spirit. If you do that you will understand that the idea underneath plato's utopia has everything to do with State control on all aspects of each pearson live. That is fascism.
 
True enough, but is it really "state" control, i.e. the "people", or is it "state" control as in the leader or government forces in control.

If it's all a benevolent fascism set up by the entirety of the populace, and with open accessibility, I can't say I would see how ppl would necessairly be unhappy.

Don't discount the book simply because of a label placed on it by ppl who know of a type of government that Plato was unaware of as it hadn't been invented yet. Not really.
 
Originally posted by AdrienVeidt
True enough, but is it really "state" control, i.e. the "people", or is it "state" control as in the leader or government forces in control.

It's not you as an individual that decides what's best for you, i tell you that.



If it's all a benevolent fascism set up by the entirety of the populace, and with open accessibility, I can't say I would see how ppl would necessairly be unhappy.

Benevolent fascism? There's no such thing. In such society you can't think differently from what is ruled. Sciforums coudn't exist in Plato's Republica.



Don't discount the book simply because of a label placed on it by ppl who know of a type of government that Plato was unaware of as it hadn't been invented yet. Not really.

I read the book and i've judged it by myself. Plato was smart enough to know that taking a child from is parents to be raised by the state is an horrible situation. But the only thing Plato cares is pure reason. He doesn't give a shit to human emotions.

 
Question: Why should someone work and have +1/3 of their income taken away if they can sit back and get welfare. If there is no money or other form of exchange, why work either?

If you dont have lawyers or judeges or the like, what do you do when you have a real nutcase on your hands?
 
Well, let's be honest here. This will happen anyway as robots become cheaper and smarter. Why continue to pay XXXXXX amount of money to a person, when you can simply buy a robot for X amount of money, and have it work 24/7 and not have to listen to it bitch about Family and Medical Leave, overtime, and Carpal Tunnel Syndrome?

Give it a hundred years (that you could easily live to see with current medical knowledge and research) and I'd guess that the only jobs to be had for a person are jobs like CEO and the like.

What will the remaining 99.999999999999999% of the world do?
 
That is the world of StarTrek but unfortunately they did not discuss the economics or the activities of people much.

I think, if we continue at the present rate of scientific progress....we shall see robots everywhere in about 50 years. And if we can develop the fusion technology to provide power and the whole world could be a gigantic welfare planet with a few people working to keep the robots going who in turn will keep us going.

But we need some incentive to keep the people busy. In Star Trek and lately in Andromeda - they made the robots and computers depend on humans. Such may not be the case. That is a good are to debate in.
 
Well, the way I think it'll fall into place is that we'll concurrently have the human workforce phased out in favor of robots, and life extension therapies to have ppl live longer, if not indefinately.

And then, thru motives that ultimately boil down to out-right boredom, there'll be an enormous wave of suicides until there's only a few million ppl left to become "star children".
 
Not necessarily so...

As you said, it will take many years to integrate robots to human society and the evolution of robots themselves. Our future is written in stars. The universe is a big place. There will be plenty to do, places to see and planets to terraform not to mention giving a helping hand to other life forms out there....

No, life wont be boring by any strech of imagination....
 
Stellar colonization will prove to be a MUCH larger consideration than we guess, IMHO. I think it will take a lot longer to actually implement, and I'm guessing that the boredom will be the major impetus behind it when it does happen.

Personally, I plan to be there. How about you?
 
I am trying to be there too. We already have the understanding of how cells stay immortal. All we need is a mechanism to reverse DNA transcription errors. All this can take say 20 years. Then the computer technology can kick in to put us in a new paradigm. Alternate choice is to freeze oneself say about 100 years...or upload my mind to a computer until my DNA can be manipulated to form a host body.

The future will be amazing....
 
I know I'm a johnny-come-lately, so this may be old hat around here; but have you read Greg Egan's Diaspora?

If not, I recommend you put it at #1 on your reading list, kmguru (and everybody else on the planet). It's my bible for what I'm trying to accomplish by going back to school.
 
No Adrien, I have not but checked out the cliff note version just now. Several of sciforum members have discussed all aspects of his ideas somewhere here and in the computer section without the knowledge of his book.

I guess ideas are a natural extension of understanding of available knowledge. Two years ago I designed a PDA technology that is just showing up from Palm and Microsoft (I did not have money to pursue even though I had a Korean comapany to prototype it. )

I think you can check out our detailed postings including mind uploading, VR world etc including how a flesher can visit a VR world. All these are possible in 22nd century and not 30th century if Moores Law holds up.

Look at the old star trek and today's technology....
 
Don't mess with stuff.

way back when,people died at a younger age, population was kept in check through natural causes,not anymore though.
I don't remember what varmint they wiped out in australia specifically,but it ate mice,now they done had a mouse plague.
They wiped out the coyotes and wolves in the state where I live,now there are too many deer, they get killed by cars all time cuz there be too many.
The deer here have contracted a disease from the soil called chronic wasting disease,the coyotes are trying to come back but the farmers keep shooting them,they don't keep chickens anymore,they like to eat cats,any cat that is living outdoors is most likely infected with FIV,a feline version of aids spread by injuries suffered in fights,ever heard two cats fighting in the night?.
I could go on and on about this,fact is,if you could acheive immortality,you would surely lose your mind,and you probably couldnt afford it anyway unless you were filthy rich
The future will be an amazingly brutal place if the powers that be have their way,imagine being an immortal military man,psychomurdernofearofdeathmonsterslave.
 
I'm sure the definition of utopia people have been using here is accurate and most likely the dictionary meaning. But according to this definition, is utopia what we really ultimately want? Happiness, sure, no more needless death or war; we do need to strive for these things but with them and nothing else our society would still be lacking. What about our relationship as animals to our natural environment? Keeping biodiversity alive? Making society's structure work by applying it to the seventh generation rule? Art? Excitement? Fun?
If we could manage to develop a society where our main problems were quarels over values and morals or clashing personalities in our communities, we would (or should) feel extremely successful. It has never happened, but maybe it will sometime (does optimism keep us alive?)
Anyone wanting to take a look at a novel relating to ''Utopia'' should grab "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley. Peace.
 
If you have a utopien civilization it better not have any competition. Have just one expansionistic neghbor and you yould be eaten alive.
 
IF you could find a place for everyone: a job they enjoy, a place where they get along with there neighors, loves thier spouse, etc., etc...
 
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