The Organon of Medicine

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Hans,

Originally posted by timokay:
Me: Danes have absolutely no sense of humour at all.

Hans: Have you considered the possibility that I simply don't think you are funny?

I'll try harder

Me: You misunderstand the task being addressed here. Doing a single test will prove nothing to anyone...must first understand the whole picture.

Hans: No, you misunderstand. What the rest of the world wants is proof by test. And as long as your total comprehension system revolves around the works of Hahnemann, you won't even catch a glimpse of the whole picture. Which has been amply demonstrated in these threads.

It must revolve around Dr. H because there is a significant problem to be solved here, and we decided to go back to the beginning.

Not so comforting - I live in Britain, not far from Gatwick Airport. Copenhagen is not far away, at all.

I talked about lunatics.

I interpreted it as being directed at me. If you are referring to Hahnemannian (Albert), I certainly do not agree with you. Resolving this issue has been Albert's highest priority for years. He gets a little short-tempered with people sometimes, when they make dumb statements (which he has heard many time before).

Me: I don't see Vojens on the map...must be a little place.

Hans: It is, but if it's not on your map, you won't get far.

British pilots are trained to find their destination without the need for passengers to navigate. Calm down now, Hans.

Tim
 
Hans,

Re. your mammoth post:

In 1810, twenty years after Hahnemann first began working on his medical system, he published a book to explain the medical system, how to use it and how the body deals with disease. Hahnemann established the truth through a great deal of practical experience and pure experimentation. AFTER THIS, he documented this truth, in his own way, in the Organon of Medicine.

Already, the use of the word "truth" flies in the face of modern scientific methods. Obviously, this is not the way science uses the word "truth". What Hahnamann established and described in the OM was a theory.

As I stated before on this thread re. truck & motorcycle, the truths and laws he found were thru' experimentation/observation. LAWS that anybody can see for themselves. He spent nearly all his time on establishing the many laws related to the behaviour of the body in sickness and during cure BY PRACTICE. Managed to separate out all the components (some he didn't have a name for because they were unknown in his day) of that behaviour, enabling him finally to bring about cure.

The book begins with a conceptual model he devised incorporating all his findings about disease, its cure, and much more. The book consists of 291 "Articles" or "Aphorisms", and references to these numbers are included below. Anyone who is
really interested in getting to the bottom of the Homeopathy debate should, at least, make an effort to understand this
perspective. My objective was to simply find the truth, whatever it is. And, reading and understanding this book was essential to this task.

I disagree. Obviously, in order to conduct experiements, a good knowledge of Homeopathy is needed, but not for debate.

We have to decide what we are testing. This approach has identified a problem with the word Homeopathy. There are different types of Homeopathy...some fly in the face of Hahnemann's teaching..doing things absolutely forbidden by Hahnemann. So, what are we testing? These other types MAY work. Who knows? Cannot take any chances at this stage. One step at a time. I want to test Hahnemann's Homeopathy, not the others. Benveniste's and the Horizon experiments were certainly not Homeopathy as I understand it.

That the "totality of perceptible signs" represents the entire extent of the sickness. Looking inside the body for explanations/mechanisms is futile, and unnecessary.

Again, this has been definitely shown to be wrong. And had Hahnamann really conducted some scientific research on this, he would, even based on the limited knowledge of his time, have found that some diseases are virtually symptomless over long periods of their developement.

Hahnemann called them "Defective Diseases", and was able to treat them. See Aph 173.

Nothing wrong, Hans. (I can see why Albert has a go at you.) This is how H saw it. The disease agent went into the body never to be seen or detected again. It is the body that produces all the manfestations of disease....and MANY OF THEM, to the trained eye...and they all mean something - identify some internal process. Gather them all up and they present an identity for that disease.


(9) The functioning body is not just "chemical". The living being operates on a "dynamic" principle, called the Vital Principle or Vital Force (VF).

This is a semi-religious thesis, and as such difficult to discuss. However, two centuries of research still fail to reveal any concrete signs of that VF.

VF is a conceptual model...nothing religious. Introduced to fit all the observations - it will make more sense when you read further. Today, the VF may be considered a synergic level(s).

(Kuby, Modern Textbook of Immunology, Second Ed, Overview: "The cells and molecules of the immune system act together in an exquisitely adaptable "dynamic" network whose complexity rivals that of the nervous system.")

That, however, has nothing to do with VF. But it thoroughly contradicts the doctrines of Homeopathy.

Eeek! I'm deleting that...I put that in.

(10) Without the VF everywhere present in the body, the "chemical" organism is unable to maintain itself and therefore dies.

(11) When a man falls ill, the VF becomes "untuned" by the "dynamic" influence of the disease agent.

(12) The VF then brings about the disagreeable sensations and abnormal functions called disease accessible to the senses of patient and doctor, and which represent the "whole" disease. Conversely, the disappearance of all perceptible deviations from health, means the VF has recovered its normal integrity.

(13) Disease, excluding surgical cases, is NOT an entity hidden in the interior of the organism, separate from its living totality, NOR an entity separate from the VF.

More elaboration of the unfounded and undocumented thesis of the VF. A conceptual model.

(14) There is no curable disease that does not announce itself through subjective and objective symptoms.

That is not entirely true. Some diseases develope without noticable symptoms; symptoms only present in the final phase of the disease. But, symptoms DO present. If not, they die, it is not "curable" (see (14)).

(15) The suffering of the untuned VF and the totality of perceptible symptoms that represent the disease are one and the same. The "chemical" organism and VF are inseparable. The doctor has therefore only to eliminate the "totality of symptoms" to simultaneously restore the VF AND eradicate the disease.

This is the "symptom treatment" that even modern medicine sometimes has to resort to, in cases where all else fails. However, in most cases, treating symptoms will not constitute a cure (there are exceptions, but that is another matter).

I hope Hahnemannian doesn't read what you just wrote.

(16) Disease agents can only untune the "dynamic" VF in a "dynamic" way. The doctor can only correct the untunement by acting on the VF with medicines which also have "dynamic" actions, BUT only when the "totality of symptoms" have revealed the disease to the carefully observing and enquiring doctor, so that they can be cured.

Homeopathy thesis. Unfounded. You're a funny guy, Hans.

(18) The "totality of symptoms" in each individual case is the only indication guiding to the choice of medicine.

Contradicted by scientific research. Indeed, the best indication has been found to be disclosing the cause of the disease and treat that. Even patients presenting with quite different symptoms coming from the same causative agent (some diseases have very diffuse symptom patterns) are cured if the cause id addressed, using the same medication.

Where has it been contradicted? Explain, please.
Re. exciting or sustaining causes; always addressed FIRST by Hahnemann.


CONTINUED later.

Tim
 
Hans,

CONTINUED

The "totality of symptoms" associated with each medicine is first carefully studied in the healthy.

(22) Substances become medicines because they can arouse certain symptoms and signs which can destroy symptoms/signs
which exist in the natural disease of the patient, PROVIDED that the two sets of symptoms closely match, established by pure experiment. Administered properly potentised in small doses, the medicine will rapidly and permanently destroy the totality of symptoms in the patient and therefore the disease.

Not only has this thesis been thoroughly been contradicted by science, it is also illogical. Even based on the rest of Hahnemanns theories, it requires a complete leap of faith to believe that matching the symptoms should somehow affect the disease.

It has not been contradicted by Science, just not accepted.
How is it illogical? THAT IT ACTUALLY HAPPENS makes it the truth. No faith required.


(26) A natural law of Homeopathy: In living organisms, a weaker dynamic affection is permanently extinguished by a stronger one (in this case, the medicine) which, though different in nature, greatly resembles it in expression.

This is evidently wrong, and it is difficult to see how Hahnemann might have drawn such a conclusion from any practical studies. You do not need to observe any great number of pationts to conclude that one person can be affected by several diseases at one time, each causing its own characteristic symptoms. Actually, most people have experienced such a thing themselves. Calling this a "natural law" can only be termed as ridiculous. Even if it were true, it would still not explain how homeopathic medicine works, since it still requires a leap of faith to believe that the weaker presentation is permanently suppressed.

You misunderstand ..the wording is not very clear so I will change it. In APh (26), Hahnemann is referring to ONE Natural Disease (calling it the weaker dynamic affection in this case), and the medicine (stronger dynamic affection) which "greatly resembles it in expression". You are interpreting it as two diseases. You are also missing the resemblence in expression - the two must have THE SAME SYMPTOMS.

Also, "a natural law of Homeopathy", already discussed, is one derived through observation and experimentation.


(31) Disease agents do not have the absolute power to untune our VF. We fall ill ONLY when susceptible, for whatever reason. So, disease agents do not make everybody sick each time.

This is correct, and is satisfactorily explained by the functioning of the immune system. I might faint.

(32) On the other hand, medicines (conceptually "artificial diseases") affect EVERY person, EVERY time, to bring about its characteristic symptom pattern.

This is not correct. Various preparations may affect individuals differently.

I beg to differ. Hahnemannian begs to differ. All Homeopaths beg to differ. If that were not true, Homeopathy could not possibly work properly nor consistently.

(33) The medicine must be both very similar in symptoms to the natural disease AND stronger than it. In this situation, the medicine transfers the untunement of the VF caused by the natural disease to an artificial disease condition, but only when very similar in symptoms to the natural one. The natural disease becomes disengaged or taken over, and extinguished. The medicinal artificial disease, when the body realises there is no disease agent, then quickly wanes leaving only health.

Unfounded, and illogical thesis.
A theoretical or conceptual explanation for the observations made. But, what matters is that the ARE the observations, i.e., what happens.

(35) Medicines which are not homeopathic will never cure any disease.

Obviously untrue. Hahnemann might be excused for thinking this, as the record of medical science in his time was not exactly impressive, but present-day Homeopaths can only perpetuate such a notion by blatantly lying (or complete ignorance).

Explain your prejudice.

(38) Two dissimilar diseases meeting in a person will compete such that the stronger will temporarily suppress and
suspend the milder one until the stronger disease has run its course. Then, the milder disease reappears, uncured, to
express its symptoms.

Interesting! This contradicts the very idea of how Homeopathy is supposed to work. If the suppression is temporary, how can it cure?

You are not distinguishing "disease/disease" interaction from "disease/medicine" interaction. You have also missed the "dissimilar"- homeopathy can never cure except through similarity of total symptoms.

(42) Two similar natural diseases cannot ward off or suspend each other such that one comes back after the disappearance of the most recent. Neither can they coexist in the same organism if they are similar in symptoms and effects. The stronger DESTROYS the weaker.

The VF can only become "untuned" by ONE disease at any one time. In this case, the weaker disease is completely extinguished by the stronger...the weaker was only a "dynamic" affection anyway.

No matter how often this is repeated, it remains totally wrong.

Where is the repetition?

(54) Allopathy (Convention Medicine, in Hahnemann's time):

(A). Allopathy generally uses speculation and scholastic arguments instead of observation of natural phenomena and

experimentation.
(B). "Cure" in disease means a material to be expelled.
(C). Uses mixed drugs and crude (large) doses.
(D). Maintains its credibility through palliative relief.

There may have been much truth in this in 1810. As most people have noticed, however, this is not 1810.

Not 1810, but we must interpret this book from Hahnemann's perspective. WHY? Because HE SUCCEEDED with very many "incurable" diseases around today.

(63) Every medicine that acts to alter the VF, brings about modifications to health called the PRIMARY ACTION. The primary action is a product of both the medicine and the VF, but mainly the former. The VF is initially passive, and accepts the medicine's action.

But later, the VF tends to oppose the influence by the medicine, and this is called the SECONDARY ACTION. And this opposite action usually matches the strength of the medicine's primary action.

(66) But small Homeopathic doses produce a primary action which is barely perceptible at all, and the VF's opposite secondary action is the same.

(68) The medicine may introduce a slight medicinal disease ALONE in the body, but it is fleeting and mild, and so the VF can easily act on this small disturbance to restore complete cure.

Pure, unfounded speculation.

Based on over 50 years observation..by a man who was the best observer of symptoms (the tools of his trade) who ever lived (by a million miles). History records the thousands of people he cured.

Diseases are ACUTE or CHRONIC. Acute diseases are rapid disease processes/untunements of the VF which run their course
and end quickly. Chronic diseases, enigmatic initially, dynamically untune the living organism from health gradually in their own characteristic way. The VF can only imperfectly resist. As disease progresses, the VF becomes ever more untuned, until death. These diseases are inherited, i.e., genetic in origin, but are still considered, in nature, to be "dynamic" contagions.

Wrong. Some (chronic) diseases are genetic or have a genetic vector, but not all. The distinction between acute and chronic diseases is partly arbitrary, depending on available treatment. A lot of diseases that were previously considered chronic are curable today.

And a lot of chronic diseases (affecting many millions in USA & UK, for example), considered incurable today were completely cured by Hahnemann...the motivation behind the current task.

(73) Acute diseases are brought on by harmful influences, but are mostly "flare-ups" of a latent chronic disease, which then returns to a dormant state if the flare-up is not too severe, nor long acting.

This is not correct. There are diseases that act as described, but they are not in majority. He begs to differ.

(74) Chronic: Must include all the diseases artificially created by Allopathy, which relentlessly weaken the VF. For example, true local inflammations are cured by Homeopathic medicines that dynamically remove the underlying arterial irritations, yet the Allopathic solution may even result in death.

Bashing 1810 medical science; not without reason. But irrelevant today.

(77) Persistent diseases resulting from avoidable noxious influences that are not chronic, go away on their own when living conditions are improved.

Yes, some of them do.

(78) True chronic diseases arise from inherited factors, and continue to worsen until death, even in those with robust
constitutions and in ideal living conditions. A young person may appear to be healthy, but a chronic disease may be present which remains hidden for years, only to emerge later after stressful events.

Such diseases exist.

(79) Three categories of chronic diseases:

1. Syphilis, 2. Gonorrhoea (sycosis) are chronic diseases which persist until death if not treated.

Two good examples of diseases considered chronic in the 19th century, but which have later been found to be simple, treatable, infectous diseases. Since they were even at his time known as veneral diseases, it is a little surprising that Hahnemann lumps them with the chronic diseases which he has just claimed were genetic.

Syphilis and Gonorrhoea are now simply treated with antibiotics. But how much longer will we be able to beat the bacteria wit antibiotics? I will check out the actually wording again re. chronic diseases being inherited. (Is it ALL or just the PSORA, or not all the PSORA).

(126) Provers must be trustworthy and conscientious.

I sure like this one.

The PROVING of the medicines was considered a critical task. Symptoms gathered according to guidelines in a meticulous way by the provers. Inaccuracies would jeopardise the whole task.

(128) Crude medicinal substances do not express all their symptoms nearly as well as when potentised, e.g., to 30c.

With these potencies, their virtues are developed to an unbelievable degree.

Unbelievable is the word. You're comical, Hans. You think the whole of Homeopathy is phony...the whole institution, college courses, material medicae, repertories, journals, pharmacies, millions involved...all phony cos Hans, who has never opened up a Homeopathy book, says so.

(215) Almost ALL so-called mental or emotional diseases are nothing but physical diseases in which mental symptoms usually increase as the physical symptoms diminish, until the disease mental symptoms reach their most striking state of defectiveness.

Actually, he might turn out to have a point here, albeit based on an entirely materialistic POV. And of course he is wrong about a number of mental diseases caused by birth/genetic defects and various trauma.

Your point puzzles me: "he is wrong about.."??? He said "Almost all..".

(244) Re. Intermittent diseases of marshy areas (malaria, etc.): A young healthy person can become accustomed to it and stay healthy provided his way of life is exactly right. The intermittent fevers endemic to this marshy areas will only affect him if he is a newcomer. But then, ONE, or possibly TWO, minute doses of highly potentised cinchona bark will likely fully restore him to health.

But, if full recovery does not occur with cinchona bark, it means that there is an underlying Psora developing a chronic condition that requires anti-psoric medicines for cure. However, if the patient is not too ill and therefore not treated with anti-psorics (i.e., the psora has not developed completely and can return to its latent state), these people soon recover if they move to a dry mountainous region - the fever resolves - but they will NEVER become really healthy without the anti-psoric treatment. (Re. footnote to Aphs 244 & 276.)

Since current malaria treatment is loosing efficiency, Homepaths could really make the day here. We can only wonder what they are waiting for.

That's more encouraging. They are not waiting to help. They are waiting for acceptance by the dominant medical system. Politics is part of it.

So, to sum it up, Homeopathy is based on a semi-religious thesis that has been contradicted by science.

Untrue - present evidence.

It jumps to conclusions not logically following from the original thesis.

Untrue - Homeopathy is a rational, logical discipline, just as disciplined as any branch of Science.

It uses an understanding of diseases that has been showed to be wrong,

Who showed it to be wrong? Present detials.

and it finally bases preparation of medicine on a method that has no theoretical basis.

Theoretical? This is futile because you know nothing about the subject. Prove me wrong.

But, you're a nice chap, Hans.
 
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Sorry to keep being a nuisance, but isn't what you say here

Originally posted by timokay
(32) On the other hand, medicines (conceptually "artificial diseases") affect EVERY person, EVERY time, to bring about its characteristic symptom pattern.

This is not correct. Various preparations may affect individuals differently.

I beg to differ. Hahnemannian begs to differ. All Homeopaths beg to differ. If that were not true, Homeopathy could not possibly work properly nor consistently.

contradicted by all of this, which is from http://www.minutus.org/bry.htm that Timokay gave us to read? Sorry it's a biggy, but if I don't paste it all ya'll not get the point about how many symptoms this one remedy is supposed to produce in " EVERY person, EVERY time".

Originally posted by timokay
Vertigo.




Vertigo, as if he were whirled round, or as if everything whirled round him, when standing.

etc


25. She did not know what she was doing, and let everything fall out of her hands (in the room). [Fr. H-n.]


The head is stupid, thinking difficult. [Hrr.]


He wishes for things that are not present.




He wishes for things immediately, and then will not have them.




etc

Semilateral headache: a (digging) pressure on a small spot of the right half of the brain, as from a kind of digging or tearing along the bones of the upper and lower maxillae, stands in connexion with a painful submaxillary gland (aft. 30 h.).

etc

Red miliary eruption on the neck. [Fr. H-n.]


195. Rough scrapy feeling in the throat (aft. 5 h.). [Hbg.]

etc

230. In the morning when fasting taste in the mouth as from decayed teeth or putrid flesh (aft. 12 h.).




With tolerably clean tongue a nasty taste in the throat, as when one's breath smells; the taste is like the smell of stinking flesh; whilst eating she feels nothing of it.


etc

Frequent stools (aft. 48 h.).




Very big formed faeces passing with difficulty.




340. Diarrhoea (aft. 3 d.).
etc

350. After hard stool long-continued burning in the rectum.


etc

550. Drawing pain in the shafts of the bones of the legs.

etc

He feels cold all down his right side.




705. Chilliness in the arms.




Chilliness all over, all the first day.

etc

(Extreme ill-humour; indisposed to think; fatigue of the mental powers.)


(Shortened now the point's been made)
 
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OK, this quoting and re-quoting gets tedious, but I'll try to address your responses:


As I stated before on this thread re. truck & motorcycle, the truths and laws he found were thru' experimentation/observation. LAWS that anybody can see for themselves. He spent nearly all his time on establishing the many laws related to the behaviour of the body in sickness and during cure BY PRACTICE. Managed to separate out all the components (some he didn't have a name for because they were unknown in his day) of that behaviour, enabling him finally to bring about cure.
I'll be perfectly blunt: Neither yours or anybody else's word is good enough for me. Proof is required. Especially since Hahnemann's understanding of disease is much different from what has later been discovered and documented, his words have no credibility in themselves, sorry.

We have to decide what we are testing. This approach has identified a problem with the word Homeopathy. There are different types of Homeopathy...some fly in the face of Hahnemann's teaching..doing things absolutely forbidden by Hahnemann. So, what are we testing? These other types MAY work. Who knows? Cannot take any chances at this stage. One step at a time. I want to test Hahnemann's Homeopathy, not the others. Benveniste's and the Horizon experiments were certainly not Homeopathy as I understand it.
You decide what you want to test, it does not matter to me. The scientific method works for anything: State what you propose to do, and what results you predict, and a test can be designed.

Tim: That the "totality of perceptible signs" represents the entire extent of the sickness. Looking inside the body for explanations/mechanisms is futile, and unnecessary.

Hans: Again, this has been definitely shown to be wrong. And had Hahnamann really conducted some scientific research on this, he would, even based on the limited knowledge of his time, have found that some diseases are virtually symptomless over long periods of their developement.

Tim: Hahnemann called them "Defective Diseases", and was able to treat them. See Aph 173.

Nothing wrong, Hans. (I can see why Albert has a go at you.) This is how H saw it. The disease agent went into the body never to be seen or detected again. It is the body that produces all the manfestations of disease....and MANY OF THEM, to the trained eye...and they all mean something - identify some internal process. Gather them all up and they present an identity for that disease.
I am not interested in Aph 173, I am interested in facts. Hahnemann is wrong; several examples exist where you cannot distinguish external presentations, yet diseases are different and effective treatment is different. In contrast, some diseases present with symptoms that vary greatly from patient to patient, yet disease and treatment is the same. In other words, it is neccessary to find the reason "within the body".

VF is a conceptual model...nothing religious. Introduced to fit all the observations - it will make more sense when you read further. Today, the VF may be considered a synergic level(s).
When a totally speculative, supernatural phenomenon is used to explain observations, it is semi-religious, I could use the word pseudo science too, but I tried to avoid that, out of politeness.

Eeek! I'm deleting that...I put that in.
Why ignore facts? :rolleyes:

I hope Hahnemannian doesn't read what you just wrote.
Common decency forbids me to say what I think of Albert's opinion.

Tim: (18) The "totality of symptoms" in each individual case is the only indication guiding to the choice of medicine.

Hans: Contradicted by scientific research. Indeed, the best indication has been found to be disclosing the cause of the disease and treat that. Even patients presenting with quite different symptoms coming from the same causative agent (some diseases have very diffuse symptom patterns) are cured if the cause id addressed, using the same medication.

Tim: Where has it been contradicted? Explain, please.
Re. exciting or sustaining causes; always addressed FIRST by Hahnemann.
I just explained, but: Suppose two patients present with the same disease, but different symptoms (not an unusual situation). To treat them, the practitioner needs to avoid being distracted from the different symptom sets. Quite contrary to Hahnemann's statement.

It has not been contradicted by Science, just not accepted.
How is it illogical? THAT IT ACTUALLY HAPPENS makes it the truth. No faith required.
If it actually happens, it is the truth. That it actually happens is what needs to be proven.

Also, "a natural law of Homeopathy", already discussed, is one derived through observation and experimentation.
I do understand that to Hahnemannians a "natural law" is whatever Hahnemann claimed to have discovered. Not so to the rest of the world.

Tim: (32) On the other hand, medicines (conceptually "artificial diseases") affect EVERY person, EVERY time, to bring about its characteristic symptom pattern.

Hans: This is not correct. Various preparations may affect individuals differently.

Tim: I beg to differ. Hahnemannian begs to differ. All Homeopaths beg to differ. If that were not true, Homeopathy could not possibly work properly nor consistently.
SO you are saying that Homeopathy hinges on that given some preparation, ALL humans must react EXACTLY alike??? ---- Boy, are you in trouble. And that is not even what Hahnemann says. Quite the contrary, he says that patients react differently to medicine. Interesting that I should be the one to tell you.

Tim: (35) Medicines which are not homeopathic will never cure any disease.

Hans: Obviously untrue. Hahnemann might be excused for thinking this, as the record of medical science in his time was not exactly impressive, but present-day Homeopaths can only perpetuate such a notion by blatantly lying (or complete ignorance).

Tim: Explain your prejudice.
Simple observation. Do I need to list the diseases that modern medicine has manged to cure? My reference to blatant lying is of course inspired by the wild and unfounded allegations of your friend Albert.

Not 1810, but we must interpret this book from Hahnemann's perspective. WHY? Because HE SUCCEEDED with very many "incurable" diseases around today.
I see no reason to use 1810 perspecive in 2003 (except for historical research, of course). Hahneman's alleged successes are still pending independnet documentation.

Based on over 50 years observation..by a man who was the best observer of symptoms (the tools of his trade) who ever lived (by a million miles).
Pending documentation :rolleyes:.

Hans
 
Francine/Mouse/Manon Thebus, whoever you are today, that pasting in of all those symptoms was irresponsible since the link shows them. But, that is what is expected from you. Moderator asked to clean up.

Some of us have been discussing you, the person motivated by hatred, and with zeal. You never make a point but go in there for the kill every time. Do not underestimate these people, whoever you are, when you try to destroy any civilised debate.


Sorry to keep being a nuisance, but isn't what you say here
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by timokay
(32) On the other hand, medicines (conceptually "artificial diseases") affect EVERY person, EVERY time, to bring about its characteristic symptom pattern.

This is not correct. Various preparations may affect individuals differently.

I beg to differ. Hahnemannian begs to differ. All Homeopaths beg to differ. If that were not true, Homeopathy could not possibly work properly nor consistently.

Let me clarify this. APH 32. During the PROVINGS, ALL symptoms DO NOT appear in every person! BUT THEY DO OCCUR in totality,in the group of people of both sexes/backgrounds specially selected who are taking part in the proving. Here is the Aphorism:

http://www.homeoint.org/books/hahorgan/organ020.htm#P32
APH 32:
"But it is quite otherwise with the artificial morbific agents which we term medicines. Every real medicine, namely, acts at all times, under all circumstances, on every living human being, and produces in him its peculiar symptoms (distinctly perceptible, if the dose be large enough), so that evidently every living human organism is liable to be affected, and, as it were, inoculated with the medicinal disease at all times, and absolutely (unconditionally), which, as before said, is by no means the case with the natural diseases."

Later in the Organon, the Proving procedure explains the rest:

"(135) All symptoms associated with a medicine do not appear in all provers... need multiple persons of both sexes for a complete proving. "

http://www.homeoint.org/books/hahorgan/organ120.htm#P135

APH 135:
"The whole of the elements of disease a medicine is capable of producing can only be brought to anything like completeness by numerous observations on suitable persons of both sexes and of various constitutions. We can only be assured that a medicine has been thoroughly proved in regard to the morbid states it can produce - that is to say, in regard to its pure powers of altering the health of man - when subsequent experimenters can notice little of a novel character from its action, and almost always only the same symptoms as had been already observed by others."
 
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Timokay

Originally posted by timokay

Let me clarify this. APH 32. During the PROVINGS, ALL symptoms DO NOT appear in every person! BUT THEY DO OCCUR in totality,in the group of people of both sexes/backgrounds specially selected who are taking part in the proving.

I don't think that's what the actual quote says at all. What the quote says agrees better with your first summary of it.

Originally posted by timokay


"But it is quite otherwise with the artificial morbific agents which we term medicines. Every real medicine, namely, acts at all times, under all circumstances, on every living human being, and produces in him its peculiar symptoms (distinctly perceptible, if the dose be large enough), so that evidently every living human organism is liable to be affected, and, as it were, inoculated with the medicinal disease at all times, and absolutely (unconditionally), which, as before said, is by no means the case with the natural diseases."

I've put in italics each 'all' and 'every' to make it clearer. If it said sometimes then you'd have to get some experimental evidence to show sometimes when and sometimes when not. But when it says 'all' and' every' then there's no room for maneuver, so if there are contradictons in all these things that are meant to happen 'all' the time then you know it's wrong without any more actual experiments.

Hate to sound picky, but isn't it just simple logic?

F.x
 
OUSS,

You didn't wait for me to complete the post. Look above, and then either behave in a civilised way or preferably, GO AWAY. (The tenth time I've told you).
 
Originally posted by timokay
OUSS,

You didn't wait for me to complete the post. Look above, and then either behave in a civilised way or preferably, GO AWAY. (The tenth time I've told you).
I havent seen anybody act uncivilized here (except Albert, of course). Albert also used to tell people to go away. I have news for both of you: This is a public forum, you have to put up with the other people being here too, you can't just tell whoever disagrees with you to go away.

Hans
 
As posted before Tim,

Words are all fine, and no doubt Hahnemann appears to have a good writing style. But, the crux of the argument is whether Homeo works, and whether you and or others are willing to show this quite simply. If homeo is really a holistic health care system, and diseases do not work as "conventional, allopathic" medicine says, (as per the Organon,) you should be able to cure patients deemed "terminal" in terms of cancer, AIDS, or other fatal disease without any problem. If you cannot, you must admit its total failure as a holistic system, and then proceed to test certain solutions versus certain symptom groups. If that fails, you must admit homeo is a failure. Arguing over the Organon is like arguing over the Bible. To the educated, who have experience in medicine, it is absurd, to the believer it is absolute truth.
 
I'm just going to ignore the rudeness.

Doesn't it look like Dr. Hahnemann contradicts himself, because he shoudn't say something like "Every real medicine, namely, acts at all times, under all circumstances, on every living human being, and produces in him its peculiar symptoms" if number 132 says remedies only produce some of their symtoms some of the time in a proving. Why isn't it a contradiction? I'm only asking a question. Quasi's right though this is meant to be science not Bible study, but if there's problems with the basics then you can't even start doing experiments, that's all I'm trying to say

Uncertain as to whether this is worth bothering with, sorry. F.x
 
OUSS,

"Every real medicine, namely, acts at all times, under all circumstances, on every living human being, and produces in him its peculiar symptoms".

PECULIAR being the operative word.

There is a difference between the "peculiar" symptoms and the "totality of symptoms" associated with a particular medicine.
The "peculiar" symptom combination is unique to the medicine AND appears in ALL people.

The "totality of symptoms" associated with this medicine, on the other hand, cannot be brought out in every single person.
But, in the required group of provers as a whole, ALL these symptoms DO appear and, as a whole, are unique to the medicine. As these can exceed one thousand, it is always more important, and practical, to try to identify the symptoms "peculiar" to this medicine.
Unfortunately, the peculiar ones are mixed in with the other 1000 or so symptoms, so you have to gather them all up.

What happens next, when all medicines are fully proved, is all the symptoms are first listed in Materia Medicae by medicine name. Then, a secondary index of the data is built - of "medicines associated with each particular symptom", called a Repertory, very useful for homing in on the right medicine. E.g., if a distinct symptom of the patient is looked up in the Repertory and only 10 medicines are associated with that precise symptom, that has narrowed the search for the medicine from 2,500+ down to 10. (Somewhat simplified, to give an example.)
 
Timokay


See you can be polit(ish) so I'm going to reply again.

Originally posted by timokay

There is a difference between the "peculiar" symptoms and the "totality of symptoms" associated with a particular medicine.
The "peculiar" symptom combination is unique to the medicine AND appears in ALL people.

But this is what a double blind placebo-controlled trial is needed to find, with something like cluster-analysis of the results, right? So, since DBPC trials weren't done with proper analysis afterwards, how can we tell that anything in Materia Medica and Repertory is more than just random (at best) or (at worst) biased by provers knowing what they were suppsoed to feel.

Saying that millions of patients are treated by MM isn't actual proof for all the reasons you must know about why DBPC trials are done.

I'm assuming that provings aren't done by DBPC with proper analysis. I've read some and they weren't and I'm sure you'd have told us if any had been 'cos that'd be really good evidence. Why aren't they done properly? It'd be easy if homeopaths really wanted to work from objective data not conjectures. Only just realized this and now it strikes me as really odd.

(Been thinking about this proving thing some more. It is really really odd and a bit bad that they aren't done right. I wonder if they have a good answer for it)

((Here's one group's proving protocol-

Structure of Provings



Prover
The prover takes a homeopathically prepared substance in the 30c potency. It is repeated only if the initial dose fails to provide any effect. Most of the provers in all provings took just one dose. The prover keeps a journal of his symptoms preferably on a daily basis or when they occur.



Supervisor
The Supervisor's role is to assist the prover in relating and recording symptoms effectively as well monitor any strong reactions etc. Prior to the prover ingesting the remedy, the supervisor takes a complete "case" or records all the current symptoms the prover has experienced. After the prover takes the remedy, the supervisor stays in contact, usually by phone and records the interaction.



The supervisor also records all symptoms in a journal and these are compared to the provers in the final extraction.



Master Prover and CO Master Prover
The master prover and CO master prover make decisions as to what remedy is proven and the overall organization and monitoring.



Compilation
Many hours of work go into compiling the information in a usable form. A number of individuals usually volunteer for this process. Most of the information in this internet format is based on a preliminary compilation with no editing of the expressions of the provers. Future books and documents with this information may contain more edited versions and larger introductory sections. ))

Here's where it came from http://www.homeopathycourses.com/html/hmcProvings.html and that have some provings as .pdf files.

No mention of controls or proper analysis. Have they really not thought of this?

Anyway. Must dash. May not look in for a while. Cheers. F.x
 
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Quasi,

Words are all fine, and no doubt Hahnemann appears to have a good writing style. But, the crux of the argument is whether Homeo works, and whether you and or others are willing to show this quite simply.

There is already research out there.

Some research papers on Homeopathy.
If anybody cannot access these links, please say so. I will then paste in the abstract from the papers.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11327521&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10812756&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9884175&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?
cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10948025&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10939780&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10335412&dopt=Abstract

These next four are scientific journals, and a few more lower down:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12226773&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1825800&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12634583&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10853874&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10484832&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11527508&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11795090&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12725250&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10796532&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10748705&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9821827&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1484708&dopt=Abstract

If homeo is really a holistic health care system, and diseases do not work as "conventional, allopathic" medicine says, (as per the Organon,) you should be able to cure patients deemed "terminal" in terms of cancer, AIDS, or other fatal disease without any problem.

When someone is sick with these diseases, they are officially always managed by the dominant medical system. That is how our institutions work. It is very unlikely that a person with terminal cancer would be officially passed over to a Homeopath. He/she would have to insist on such treatment.
Then, it would be a matter of taking the patient off all medication so that a fully symptom picture could be established. The dominant medical system would not allow this! (They are still primarily responsible, being the only official medical system.) Hahnemann would insist that it be done because his Homeopathy operates strictly on just ONLY ONE medicine at a time (and he was the boss in his day).

Tim
 
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Timokay

See here one of the Methods,

"609 patients on their first visit to a homoeopathic clinic from June 1995 to May 1997 received a telephone call 1 year later in which they were asked to rate their general health compared with 1 year ago"

Can you see why this is no good? Or to put it another way why wouldn't this be wide open to placebo-effect and just plain lying?

Realllyreally must dash now. F.x
 
Francine/Ouss, whoever,

Originally posted by timokay

There is a difference between the "peculiar" symptoms and the "totality of symptoms" associated with a particular medicine.
The "peculiar" symptom combination is unique to the medicine AND appears in ALL people.

But this is what a double blind placebo-controlled trial is needed to find, with something like cluster-analysis of the results, right?

Yes, exactly. But these people are not scientists, and certainly not scientists in your speciality. They live in a completely separate world called Homeopathy, with no links to Science.

So, since DBPC trials weren't done with proper analysis afterwards, how can we tell that anything in Materia Medica and Repertory is more than just random (at best) or (at worst) biased by provers knowing what they were suppsoed to feel.

Hahnemann did the best he could; very rigorous with the provers and provings. About 60 years after his death many of his medicines were proved again to double-check them..they stopped the provings after a few of the medicines because everything was spot-on...what was the point! So, Hahnemann's 99 medicines DEAD RIGHT - not a single discrepancy. OK, Hahnemann didn't have DBPC, but he substantially accomplished this job by 1810, and a whole lot more in the following 33 years, like cracking virtually all disease.
I will detail the proving procedure of Hahnemann later, to compare with your paste below.


Saying that millions of patients are treated by MM isn't actual proof for all the reasons you must know about why DBPC trials are done.

I'm assuming that provings aren't done by DBPC with proper analysis. I've read some and they weren't and I'm sure you'd have told us if any had been 'cos that'd be really good evidence. Why aren't they done properly? It'd be easy if homeopaths really wanted to work from objective data not conjectures. Only just realized this and now it strikes me as really odd.

You are right. Provings NOT done by DBPC with proper analysis. As I have said, Homeopathy is a different world. No scientific training. I'm not sure about your "proper analysis" (that's where you jump in about me not doing maths/stats at A-level, I think). Could any bizarre subjective symptom be accepted by such as analysis, e.g., feel dizzy when get out of bed on left side?

(Been thinking about this proving thing some more. It is really really odd and a bit bad that they aren't done right. I wonder if they have a good answer for it)

((Here's one group's proving protocol-

Structure of Provings
Prover
The prover takes a homeopathically prepared substance in the 30c potency. It is repeated only if the initial dose fails to provide any effect. Most of the provers in all provings took just one dose. The prover keeps a journal of his symptoms preferably on a daily basis or when they occur.

Supervisor
The Supervisor's role is to assist the prover in relating and recording symptoms effectively as well monitor any strong reactions etc. Prior to the prover ingesting the remedy, the supervisor takes a complete "case" or records all the current symptoms the prover has experienced. After the prover takes the remedy, the supervisor stays in contact, usually by phone and records the interaction.
The supervisor also records all symptoms in a journal and these are compared to the provers in the final extraction.

Master Prover and CO Master Prover
The master prover and CO master prover make decisions as to what remedy is proven and the overall organization and monitoring.

Compilation
Many hours of work go into compiling the information in a usable form. A number of individuals usually volunteer for this process. Most of the information in this internet format is based on a preliminary compilation with no editing of the expressions of the provers. Future books and documents with this information may contain more edited versions and larger introductory sections. ))


Hahnemann had more to say on it than that (e.g., compilation above) but, if these concerns are incorporated, the above is probably a good starting point for an adapatation to the "proper analysis" you have highlighted, whatever that is.

No mention of controls or proper analysis. Have they really not thought of this?

Definitely not. They would very likely not know what the hell you are talking about. You would have to explain it to them, and its significance. Bread and butter to you, with your training, inconceivable to them. Homeopathy and Science just do not communicate with eachother. That ridiculous Horizon Homeopathy challenge showed the other side of it; the most basic misunderstanding about Homeopathy by Science.
 
I read your abstracts. First, the meta-analysis left out the most damaging evidence that homeopathy does not work, and selected poorly designed trials to represent it in an unbalanced, biased way. Second, many of the trials did not accurately represent homeopathy as it is practiced. Third, many of the journals, especially those in CAM are not scientifically peer reviewed, rather are filtered for marketing potential and for increasing the use of homeopathy. Fourth, in one of the last articles: "[patients] seen by the homeopathic physicians were younger, more affluent, and more likely to present with long-term complaints. Physicians using homeopathic medicine surveyed spent more time with their patients, ordered fewer tests, and prescribed fewer pharmaceutical medications than physicians practicing conventional medicine." This says a lot. So homeopaths only see those who can afford both CAM and standard medicine, they only see young people to prevent anything serious from happening, and they appeal to greedy insurance companies/politicians by claiming it is cheaper. In short, I feel the research links you supplied are grossly misrepresentative of the data we have on homeopathy. www.randi.org has the negative data aplenty, including the total failure of Dr. Jacques Benveniste, who lied in his major homeopathic publication. It appears that homeopathy is only effective in conditions which are 99% self healing without any treatment, in young people who have no other health problems apparent. Sound wishy washy to you?
 
Quasi,

Please go back to that post as I added more...won't add more now you have posted something.

Yes, we can review the weaknesses in these journals. I can bring another 20 in for you to dissect, but what will it really accomplished?

There is possibly something(s) fundamentally wrong here that we must identify. Communication problems? That's why I favour retreating back to Francine's/whoever's thoughts, or further, to Hahnemann's.

Maybe I should explain why I believe so strongly in Hahnemann's accomplishments. (It would probably put Hans to sleep, though.)

Back tomorrow.
 
Quasi,

In short, I feel the research links you supplied are grossly misrepresentative of the data we have on homeopathy. www.randi.org has the negative data aplenty, including the total failure of Dr. Jacques Benveniste, who lied in his major homeopathic publication. It appears that homeopathy is only effective in conditions which are 99% self healing without any treatment, in young people who have no other health problems apparent. Sound wishy washy to you?

I think the data, in total, shows there is still a mystery to be solved. No-one seems to be able to knock this thing dead.

So, I went back to the beginning to try to make sense of it all.
Started with Hahnemann's books about his life's work, which I studied in some detail.

I got a big surprise. He was saying things and doing things which would be impossible had he not succeeded 100% as he claimed, with his medical system. I am totally convinced of this, so it is only a matter of working forwards through history to locate where things went wrong.

Hahnemann would have rejected outright both Benveniste's work and the Horizon challenge as being absolutely nothing to do with Homeopathy. And that goes for every single scientific paper supposedly testing Homeopathy that I have read.

If you point one or two specific ones out, and I will dissect them. We need to focus on specifics. Otherwise, this is just a chat room or coffee shop. Give me a specific reference(s) and I will get a copy of it from the University library, study carefully, and report what I find.
Re. Benveniste's work, what the hell has basophil degranulation got to do with Homeopathy?

WHICH Homeopathy are we testing? There are different types. I can only speak for Hahnemannian Homeopathy.

Tim
 
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