The one theology book all atheists really should read

Dr. Toad, I have read both of the works you cite - well, CS Lewis is several works - and enjoyed them. I've read quite a few other books as well.
None of then inclines me to accept the kind of theism that currently prevails in the Americas and Mesopotamia.

I think he was speaking to the keffir among the would-be/should-be Christians he was writing for.

If you don't subscribe to Abrahamic (in root) religions, what do you prefer? I practice a form of Buddhism that suggests I will be saved if I chant daily, but there are no imperatives to kill or subjugate the keffir and either kill him or extract a tax, Why the fuck would God want you coerce a tax from people who don't believe as you do?

There's something really wrong there.

If I offered you a blessing in Latin, would you accept it?

I've been granted access to Mass in the Episcopal church, and have been given the privilege of taking Catholic communion. It means not one damned thing.

I don't go to Lutheran services because they offer grape juice, not wine... That whole transubstantiation thing always bothered me through Catechism classes, but for long afterward.
I think if I believe in a god at all, that I'm deist: He laid the egg and left to build another universe.

I had way too much LSD one night, and I went out and met him, or something that looked like him. It looked at me. Scared the living shit out of me and helped me not freeze in the winter night, but yeah, I've had a religious experience. Only thing is, I know mine was drug induced

Maybe... Maybe I reached a little too far. Maybe I'm insane, or maybe I'm the sanest person you know.

Trust me...
 
The God described above is not easy to talk about as it's simply redefining God to mean reality.

Compared to the rest of your post ... okay, I got nothin' on that. Whatever.

Still, this is an interesting question because it deals with a matter of presuppositions. Neither theists nor atheists, in that superficial dispute, address the psychological and anthropological implications. "Redefining God to mean reality" is the process, philosophically and academically speaking, of removing theology from religionists in order to examine questions of God and religion in the context of a psychoanalytic meaning of history.

• • •​

Iceaura attacking Richard Dawkins is just hysterical.

In truth, "hysterical" probably isn't the word I would use, but I'm not actually picking nits on this occasion. It's just weird, or something.

Have any of y'all read "The Golden Bough" by Frazer?

Difficult. Huge. But that's the thing; it's anthropology and social psychology between LeBon and Brown. It is very nearly a unique field unto itself because its historical window was so narrow.

It's important to me from two vectors: In my days of witchcraft and occultism, Frazer was required reading, which, I'm sure, is supposed to mean something; in the time since, there is Stetkevych, Muhammad and the Golden Bough, which is its own complicated question, but also a fascinating scrap of the literary record insofar as there is a Golden Bough in Islam and in the pre-Islamic record. Stetkevych's comparatively extraordinarily thin tome is also outstandingly difficult reading, but also, in its way, a striking example of scholarship exploring the meaning of partiuclar religious symbols.° There are seven pages, for instance, dealing with particular aspects of throwing stones, best reproduced instead of described, which is problematic in its own right, but as the psychoanalytic meaning of history goes, this particular psychoanalysis is demonstrative of at least something about not only the difficulty of the subject matter but also the straightforward implications of stepping out of caricature frameworks in order to deal with the history in its living implications.

†​

The thing is, we're not making religion go away; it's virtually impossible. Destroying theism eventually becomes a matter of semantics, and thus is similarly impossible. The better way to deal with the living implications of religion would seem to have something to do with challenging narratives°° and altering the discourse. This isn't a strictly competitive endeavor; in many cases, what people need is a way to tell the story within their framework, and while "God" is a complicating factor, the underlying behavior is perfectly human.

Karen Armstrong's A History of God is much more accessible than Stetkevych, and also much more general; there are also Jeffrey Burton Russell's books on the Devil; reading even these surveys of records historical and literary changes the way one argues about and even against the proposition of God. Elaine Pagels, too, with her work on the Gnostic Gospels, as well as her exploration of the historical politics of Satan.

And it is easy enough to understand, to the one, that nobody really wants to study what they so loathe, but, to the other, the critique of atheistic discourse in the topic article would be considerably defanged if particular experience wasn't so easily accessible. Rational argument is harder, and there is a loud faction creating a powerful behavior pattern reiterating boundaries of acceptable knowledge and ignorance by trying to keep it stupidly simplistic.

There is a certain irony about it. Hart is an American theologian whose specialty includes European continental philosophy; the "light of being" statement is, to the one, an encouraging sign, but, to the other, very much unlike the evangelical Christianist narrative denigrating American political discourse these last nigh on forty years, speak nothing of the nigh on sixty before that. Monotheism has certain logical results; Hart clearly isn't ready to decouple God from that specialness people feel within their religious contexts, but the viable tautalogy runs, "God is", and the most part of religion that gives societies trouble has to do with screwing that part up in order to feel special. Compared to the God of, say, Kim Davis' religion, Hart offers a somewhat evolved notion of godhead. His work has potential to do more to help Christians transform their faith and, thereby, religion, than anything modern atheistic discourse has yet provided. Christianity has very nearly caught up to Diderot. Let's hear it for the eighteenth century.
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Notes:

° If you happened to catch the spectacle with some extremists a few weeks back, the one ripping on Islam included in hs misrepresentations ahadith pertaining to an episode at the heart of Stetkevych's examination, the march and raid on Tabuk.

°° See also, #3537126/186↗, or, rather, the brief summary: Why is certain behavior not illegal? Compared to history, when would it have become illegal? The latter is the counterpoint, and considers the way in which society's outlook on the behavior has changed: Why is it legal? Because the argument to make it illegal has not yet prevailed. And that really is a matter of history and how we read it; I just don't expect the institutions could pull off that kind of prohibition against church groups targeting children for brainwashing, such as the proposition went. Nonetheless, if a particular range of argument has not prevailed, it occurs with different context and empowerment than it did, say, thirty years ago. In this aspect, changing narratives create or allow potentials for further change.
 
Compared to the rest of your post ... okay, I got nothin' on that. Whatever.

Still, this is an interesting question because it deals with a matter of presuppositions. Neither theists nor atheists, in that superficial dispute, address the psychological and anthropological implications. "Redefining God to mean reality" is the process, philosophically and academically speaking, of removing theology from religionists in order to examine questions of God and religion in the context of a psychoanalytic meaning of history.
You don't need the phrase "a psychoanalytic meaning of". "Vectors" isn't the best choice of word either. If you want to examine history by taking religion into account, great. That is generally done but it has nothing to do with the threads started by theists (in general) on sciforums.

Shall we psychoanalyze witchcraft and occultism to better understand history as well?
 
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Iceaura attacking Richard Dawkins is just hysterical.
In truth, "hysterical" probably isn't the word I would use, but I'm not actually picking nits on this occasion. It's just weird, or something.
Try "reading comprehension problem". Or try rereading.

Or at least quote whatever it is your befuddled brains have made hash out of, and I'll try to straighten you out - without much hope, but sincerely and honestly as befits my sense of duty here.

I've come to regard the sudden inability to read simple sentences with comprehension as a symptom. It bodes ill.
His work has potential to do more to help Christians transform their faith and, thereby, religion, than anything modern atheistic discourse has yet provided.
Modern atheistic discourse and analysis has been providing those same insights and perspectives, decades before Hart. The Eastern tradition provided it millenia before Hart - in works translated into Western languages and popularly available for over a century now.

Wendell Berry's thoughtful essays have also had that potential. So have many others. They remain sources of potential.

The obstacles have not been put up by atheists.
 
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Which may be why so many atheists enter such discussions with a request for definition or identification of the god being discussed.
That request normally goes unanswered.
The atheist, btw, is usually the second poster, as the topic opening is usually something like this one: an apologist of unspecified religious affiliation making a blanket statement about atheists, giving advice to atheists, categorically asserting that non-believers are immoral or claiming "scientific proof" of their (usually unspecified) god's existence, which usually turns out to be more unsupported claims and non-factual statements and sometimes impenetrable gibberish.
Usually - the present case may be an exception.
Well, it might...
Were you saying this was a refreshing change or did you miss the part about the article giving advice to atheists, as spoken by an atheist?
 
Odd that you would attempt to"poison the well" by suggesting someone might go off half-cocked, posting an opinion without reading it - while in the same breath, confessing that you haven't read it.


Sounds like you have an opinion to offer without doing the homework. Bit of a double standard there.


That being said...

I might well heed your advice and pick the book up.

[ EDIT ] Here I am, not reading properly. I thought the book author was an atheist, standing up for theism. That would have been something I'd like to have read.
I am not sure if that was an intentional attempt at humour (in which case it was really good ... you caught me) or a blithe foray into the sort of spiel retching that I was warning about.

Anyway, I am going with the later (in which case if it was the former, your humour caught me out).

I was only suggesting that reading the article was warranted to avoid falling back on tired cliches of tired atheistic arguments. It is not a sales pitch for the book or some "new evidence of God" claim or the like.

It is about the phenomena of atheists calling upon scientific methodologies to deal with a problem that is philosophical. There was a suggestion (given by the theistic author of the book, but subsequently agreed with by the atheistic journalist) that this mismatching of means to ends arises from atheists not accepting (or even being aware) of the theistic definition of God - namely attributing God to something "within" or "part" of reality as opposed to being "behind" or "the cause" of it. The journalist makes the point, that if the goal of atheism is to engage in debate, it behooves such persons to accept the definition of whom they are arguing with. If they don't do that, their arguments will be irrelevant.
 

I'm fine with it just being "the light of Being itself." I don't see how calling it God adds anything useful to our understanding of it.

The argument itself does not seem all that original and is reminicent of Paul Tillich, who also contended God was not a being among other beings but the Ground of Being itself. I still don't see that sort of equivalence as very helpful. Let's find out what Being means first before we go identifying it with some sort of God.
"Being", "knowing being", etc all issues arising from philosophy.
I don't think the point was to introduce some new philosophical position to the argument, but rather, to introduce the position that it is a problem confined to philosophy, lying beyond or outside of science.
 
I don't understand the use of the word " keffir" in this context?
perhaps it's a spelling mistype?
in context, it appears that Dr_Toad meant Kafir

Kafir
Kafir is an Arabic term meaning "unbeliever", or "disbeliever". The term alludes to a person who rejects or disbelieves in God according to the teachings of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, and denies the dominion and authority of the Islamic god, and thus is often translated as "infidel".
see also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir

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It is about the phenomena of atheists calling upon scientific methodologies to deal with a problem that is philosophical.

just a few thoughts:
did you mean "noumenon"?

if it is a phenomenon then it is 'what is experienced is the basis of reality' according to philosophers here (link provided). and that makes it understandable under the investigations of the scientific methodologies, and thus it *is* a problem that can be dealt with using said science.

also - something that is purely philosophical is also subjective
 
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The point is that atheists frequently ignore or are not even aware of such definitions, so there is a concern, from the POV of this atheistic journalist's perspective, that athe arguments of atheists are irrelevant.
It makes almost no difference. You are still just calling a bunch of things you don't know "god".
 
If you don't subscribe to Abrahamic (in root) religions, what do you prefer?
Tolerant co-operation among rational people. ( I know, I know, another stupid idealist....)
Why the fuck would God want you coerce a tax from people who don't believe as you do?
God wouldn't. Occupying foreign powers have to raise money for their armies.
By penalizing the unconverted, they kill two birds and eat them, too.

There's something really wrong there.
Lots of places. But "it's the best of all possible worlds" so that's OK.
 
Difficult. Huge. But that's the thing; it's anthropology and social psychology between LeBon and Brown. It is very nearly a unique field unto itself because its historical window was so narrow.

You really think so? I had some struggles with reading it when I was 15, but I attributed that to my own ignorance of magic. Interesting.
 
You really think so? I had some struggles with reading it when I was 15, but I attributed that to my own ignorance of magic. Interesting.

Oh, it's extraordinarily insightful, but we never stood a chance; like many religionists, approaching it because it was important to an unofficial canon had us similarly trying to understand The Golden Bough in the context of our own magick; these days I find it much more important for what it tells us about the evolution of religion.

It's like how all these years later I still don't have a copy of Sefer Yetzirah; neither am I interested in trying to perform post-qabalistic ceremonial magick, these days, so the book's place in the historical record is something I'll get around to when I get around to it.
 
If you want to talk about God but not about anything personal that is your choice but it's an odd place to draw the line.

I understand not getting specific but these forums are much more interesting when you have some sort of understand of the person posting and not just of the one dimensional nature of some of these topics.

One more post about God isn't very interesting or revealing.
I haven't seen this unusual standard for topic discussion you are proposing anywhere else here so it seems strange for you to insist on it as the means for making a topic "relevant". Usually people just discuss the topic.

Just barging in, with a subtle demeaning nature with, "I live in the USA. Tell me about yourself. Don't worry, I will not deride your religion" is the online equivalent of ..


Creepy.
If you are not looking to deride my religion, what are you looking to deride?

No thanks, facebook is fine, even with data mining and fake accounts.

Regarding the topic of this thread, there isn't much to say. The argument that you will get depends on what God you are talking about at the moment. If he is a magical God, then yes, science is brought into it more.
The journalist in the article touches on the pointlessness of popping in with quips about "magic" Gods and such, namely questioning whether its merely a category error introduced by atheists.

If you are talking about a philosophical concept of God as everything then that brings little to the table.
Well for a start, it brings the end of the so called scientific demand of "well, prove it." Philosophical arguments require philosohical critiques. The atheistic journalist points out such critiques are not beyond atheism, but they are beyond a type of atheism that refuses to budge from an irrelevant definition of God.

You can call everything God but it says no more than if you don't call everything God.
Well, to run with your offering of a rudimentary definition of God and an equally rudimentary definition of "everythinb else", you can just as easily swap "no more" with "no less" for the same (useless) effect .... IOW its just hot air as the "moreness" or "lessness" are not qualified in any manner, and just paves the way for arbitrary blather.

As far as the responses that you get on a science forum, what were you expecting? The philosophical threads tend to go on and on only for a similar one to be started and to go on and on.
Many types of people, including atheists don't seem to be disturbed with their own repetitiveness so its not clear what the "science forum" (if that's what you want to call it) has to do with anything.

Most people just really aren't interested in that so you may get some trolling type of responses.
From my observations, it appears that content free trollish behaviour belongs to specific people and intelligent thoughtfulness belongs to others.
Sure, some people are here just to troll, but diverging real or imagined details about one's life just seems to provide such trolls with more material to work with.
Hence mh previous comment about this place coming in on the top 5.

This isn't predominately a religious or philosophical forum.
Seems you are talking less about how this site is and more about how you imagine it is.
Just recently I discovered that the religious forum is archived, probably on account of all the traffic it has received. I could be wrong, but it doesn't appear the other forums are (I haven't checked them all).

It also tends to draw a lot of cranks so it's helpful to present a fuller picture of yourself, otherwise you may (not you personally) just be viewed as a crank.
It also tends to draw a lot of crank bashers, which is probably not favourable to this "Summer of 69" routine you are spinning

On the other hand for those who show that they have other interests, a sense of humor, and a life .. they may get a better response.
Pinata festivals, all in the spirit of caring, eh?

If the picture is of someone sitting in their parents basement all day railing against "mainstream" science while trying to promote their "model" of "darkness" or whatever the nutty idea of the day is then they won't be taken seriously by many.

You initiated this so called friendly inquiry in a clumsy manner with a subtle derrogatory suggestion. It wasnt like a major social gaffe, more like an awkwardness that prompts polite refusal.
Then you proceeded to go from bad to worse with a lengthy sort of "you aint from around here, are you boy?" tirade, plying your provinciality as some sort of lay of the land standard for behaviour, upping the ante of the derogatory subtleties and the social gaffe.

In the real world, people reciprocate according to how they are treated. In the online world, its not much different. I didn't really have high expectations when you staggered in, but please spare me this "You aint holding your half of the deal" bullshit.

If one's interest is religion, that's fine. If every waking thought is religion to the exclusion of any other thought then maybe we have a crank...:)
I'm pretty sure interest in religion is not fine in your books, so you can quit hiding that pinata stick behind your back, if you like.
:)
 
according to the classical metaphysical traditions of both the East and West, God is the unconditioned cause of reality – of absolutely everything that is – from the beginning to the end of time. Understood in this way, one can’t even say that God "exists" in the sense that my car or Mount Everest or electrons exist. God is what grounds the existence of every contingent thing, making it possible, sustaining it through time, unifying it, giving it actuality. God is the condition of the possibility of anything existing at all.
So God is physics or nature. There is no being or consciousness that is God. Fine God is a set of rules with no intelligence.

That is a weird definition of God but it is no worse than any other definition I guess.
 
Anyway, I thought I was quite clear (seems one can never be too clear on the internet ... ) , but it appears not so I will just be clearer ... the point was not to advocate the book, the author, the reviewer or the news source.

Your intention seemed to me to advocate for some anti-atheist conclusion that you take the author and/or reviewer to have advocated. If so, then I think that it's your job to explain it and to defend it.

The point was to highlight the lack of philosophy in an atheist reliance on science as a means of argument.

Assuming that characterization of atheists is even accurate, and assuming (for the sake of argument) that the implied criticism is correct, then what would you favor replacing these grievous atheist errors with? What's your alternative?

The "traditional" position of God is not a "scientific", but a philosophical one ...

Or more accurately a theological one. (I don't think that we should equate theology and philosophy.)

or at least the presentation of such a position does not become an inherently scientific problem.

Who insists that it is an "inherently scientific problem"? (Maybe Dawkins, Coyne or people like that. But even then, I don't want to put words in their mouths.)

But it is typically an existence claim. That puts it in the metaphysical arena. It's also typically a knowledge claim. People claim to believe or even to know that God exists. And that puts it in the epistemological arena.

If we (as I generally do) understand 'knowledge' to mean something like 'justified true belief', then most weight would seem to fall on the word 'justified'.

How is purported 'knowledge' of God justified?

We must not only have a proposition in mind that we believe is true. Nor is it sufficient that it in fact be true. (That correspondence might just be luck or happenstance.) We need some satisfactory reason to believe that it's true.

That's what motivates all the incessant talk about 'evidence'. If the word 'evidence' suggests 'science' to you and yours, then you need to propose an alternative form of extra-evidential justification that you think is more appropriate to theistic propositions. That's your task, not theirs.

As such, it behooves an atheist to discriminat about which trees they wish to bark up, if they desire to keep their arguments relevent.

They aren't 'barking up trees', let alone the wrong tree. They are just saying that if you ever hope to convince them of the truth of theism, you need to present them with something that convinces them. (Call it 'evidence' or whatever you like.) Otherwise they will say that they aren't aware of anything that justifies theistic belief. That's reasonable enough.

The article proposes a certain definition of God based on an overview of tradition and philosophy (granted, that it is excerpted from the book, but it finishes there, as far as the thread topic is concerned ... no extra reading from author, yada yada required).

And I quoted it and responded to it. It has a couple of serious defects in my opinion.

First, this rather cosmic conception isn't entirely consistent with much of theistic religious tradition that does present God as a 'person', a person who is 'creator', 'designer', 'judge' and the Bible's memorable 'Lord' (a title given to an ancient king.) The reviewer's favored cosmic concept is taken from late-antique philosophical theology that tries to combine preexisting Christian (and later Muslim) tradition with Neoplatonism. In India, we see a rather different sequence of ideas, but again the interplay of personalized traditions with more abstract philosophy.

Second, giving the concept of 'God' an exceedingly metaphysical spin seemingly reduces God to being whatever fulfills particular metaphysical functions. God is the source and origin of the universe (the big bang can assume that role), God is the source of the universe's order and whatever sustains it from moment to moment (the laws of physics can take over that). Sure, we can make these kind of moves, but something of vital importance to religion is being lost. God loses "his" emotional resonance, 'his" psychological relevance to human beings, "his" role in ethics, and "his" Holiness. The 'Laws of Physics' are very different sorts of things than 'God'.

If we bump everything upstairs to the realm of metaphysics, the question then is what remains of God that justifies our worshipping him? We don't fall on our knees and worship theories of metaphysical modality, elementary particle physics or the foundations of mathematics.
 
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So God is physics or nature.
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That sounds like a false dichotomy, since they both play in the same field.

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There is no being or consciousness that is God.
According to popular atheist thought, yes.

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That is a weird definition of God but it is no worse than any other definition I guess.
I'm not sure why, as an atheist, you would expect one of your definitions of God to be better than any other.
You did quote something from the article, but your response seems more like you collected your thoughts on atheism.
 
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