The Nature of Infinity

river said:
And what is the essence or what is fundamental reason that the speed of light could be infinite ?
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It is only objectively that a photon goes at the speed of light, if the photon would have a subjective then it would go infinitely fast, reaching infinity in a instant (as distance shrinks to zero and time stops). Is it something to be a photon? Does the photon have a existence of its own?

Relativity is only for the observers, the one travelling doesn't perceive anything special and crosses the speed of light without problem (speed is a function of the distance and time, and the distance become shorter (length contraction) and the time slows down (time dilation) so in his perspective he is travelling faster than the speed of light while in reality the length is contracted and time slows down). He can never reach infinite speed though (of course), but the photon is already travelling the fastest possible which in the subjective view is infinite.

It is called Proper Velocity.
 
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Originally Posted by river
The understanding of the physicality by mathematical abstractions is important but misses the point of the infinity of the existence of..objects
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Mathematics does this with the existence of objects: "Let S be the set of all objects".
So now you do: "Let S' be the set of all objects in an observer's worldline".
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Why do you need an observer ?

You don't have to worry about whether S or S' are infinite sets, instead it's some property that every member of the set has. But you still need to define what an object is, as well as what a worldline or observer is.
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This is why the mathematics of the object becomes irrelevant
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Well, you just defined a set containing at least one of "objects whose mathematical representation is irrelevant". A set is (a) mathematical (structure), so are you saying it's irrelevant if this object is in some set?
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I'm saying that the mathematical sets are superfluous , really

I don't need the " sets " to understand infinity

The infinity of the existence of energy and matter is obvious to my self
 
Existence, is infinite by definition, it's rather obvious.
You can't have something without infinity.
 
Ininfitly is so weird when you think about it. Make an object and increase its speed to infinite, what does it look like? If our universe is infinite in measurement, and we move an object at infinite speed, would the object come back to you. I wonder if infinite is instant?
 
Infinity is a construct of mind, there are no infinities in Nature, not even time(which had a beginning and has experienced a finite duration), the Universe(ditto), distance of any sort(space also had a beginning and the Universe is finite), even the gravity of a BH does not go to infinity, there can always be a bigger BH with higher levels of gravity and greater density. I defy anyone to point to a single infinity outside of math(a tool that may or may not represent reality)or science(though the careful and accurate scientist will say "approaches infinity", not "goes to infinity" as it will never reach infinity, just like mass can never reach lightspeed). We say that things like the expansion of the Universe is infinite, but since it had a beginning and is currently of a finite(but unbounded)size, it isn't infinite, nor will it be infinite at any future point in time, therefore not infinite. We say infinite when we talk of processes that will continue indefinitely, but these processes had a beginning and are not infinite in the present, they will always be finite in every now, from now on.

Infinity is a concept, a concept constructed in the mind, not a reality. Time and Space are not infinite, they are finite and unbounded. As is everything they contain. Scientists know that if your calculations produce an infinity, something is wrong with your understanding, it is a warning sign that you have made a mistake, not that the infinity actually exists. Nature abhors infinities just like it abhors a truly empty vacuum, neither exists.

Cyperium

Nothing with mass can ever reach lightspeed, much less "crosses the speed of light without problem". Even the traveler never sees himself at superluminal speeds. Length contraction and time dilation occur at less than light speed to the traveler, they do not affect distances or time in the rest of the Universe. The only thing that travels at light speed is the photon(radiation, light). And nothing in the Universe goes faster than light in a vacuum. To accelerate a single electron to lightspeed takes more energy than the Universe contains. The energy needed for further acceleration "tends toward infinity" when very close to lightspeed, as does mass. If hypernovas and Gamma Ray Bursts, some of the most energetic things in the Universe, are unable to accelerate a particle of matter to or above lightspeed, you can't, either. Relativity says you never will.

Grumpy:cool:
 
I defy anyone to point to a single infinity outside of math(a tool that may or may not represent reality)or science(though the careful and accurate scientist will say "approaches infinity", not "goes to infinity" as it will never reach infinity, just like mass can never reach lightspeed).
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Not sure what you mean by outside of math and science, but an electron is said to have infinite charge, infinite energy, and infinite mass. A black hole is also said to have infinite gravity. Aren't these examples of physically infinite magnitudes?
 
Grumpy said:
Infinity is a construct of mind, there are no infinities in Nature, not even time(which had a beginning and has experienced a finite duration), the Universe(ditto), distance of any sort(space also had a beginning and the Universe is finite), even the gravity of a BH does not go to infinity, there can always be a bigger BH with higher levels of gravity and greater density. I defy anyone to point to a single infinity outside of math(a tool that may or may not represent reality)or science(though the careful and accurate scientist will say "approaches infinity", not "goes to infinity" as it will never reach infinity, just like mass can never reach lightspeed). We say that things like the expansion of the Universe is infinite, but since it had a beginning and is currently of a finite(but unbounded)size, it isn't infinite, nor will it be infinite at any future point in time, therefore not infinite. We say infinite when we talk of processes that will continue indefinitely, but these processes had a beginning and are not infinite in the present, they will always be finite in every now, from now on.

Infinity is a concept, a concept constructed in the mind, not a reality. Time and Space are not infinite, they are finite and unbounded. As is everything they contain. Scientists know that if your calculations produce an infinity, something is wrong with your understanding, it is a warning sign that you have made a mistake, not that the infinity actually exists. Nature abhors infinities just like it abhors a truly empty vacuum, neither exists.

Cyperium

Nothing with mass can ever reach lightspeed, much less "crosses the speed of light without problem". Even the traveler never sees himself at superluminal speeds. Length contraction and time dilation occur at less than light speed to the traveler, they do not affect distances or time in the rest of the Universe. The only thing that travels at light speed is the photon(radiation, light). And nothing in the Universe goes faster than light in a vacuum. To accelerate a single electron to lightspeed takes more energy than the Universe contains. The energy needed for further acceleration "tends toward infinity" when very close to lightspeed, as does mass. If hypernovas and Gamma Ray Bursts, some of the most energetic things in the Universe, are unable to accelerate a particle of matter to or above lightspeed, you can't, either. Relativity says you never will.

Grumpy:cool:
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Disagree

Infinity is not a construct of mind , rather , it is the contemplation of the permanent absence of energy and matter , never to return , ever

And therefore the consequences thereof...

Which goes beyond mathematics and science
 
Magical Realist

Not sure what you mean by outside of math and science, but an electron is said to have infinite charge, infinite energy, and infinite mass. A black hole is also said to have infinite gravity. Aren't these examples of physically infinite magnitudes?
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Math is a tool that may be used to describe the Universe, but that same tool, used wrongly may not be describing reality. Infinities simply do not exist. Nothing in this Universe(including the whole Universe itself)is infinite, and if your math or scientific theory says that anything is infinite, it is your math or your scientific understanding that is at fault.

A Black Hole is never said to have infinite gravity, it's gravity is determined by it's finite mass. The concept of a singularity is infinite density and infinitely small size. Singularities are a concept derived from our math but we really have no idea what happens inside an event horizon, though our math and science may or may not tell us something about those conditions. And once you pass into the Quantum realm the uncertainty probably keeps it from ever reaching zero volume, therefore no infinite density.

And the electron? What loon said it's charge was infinite, it's energy is certainly not infinite, and it is the lightest of the primary particles in an atom. It is thousands of times lighter than a proton. I think you are having a problem of understanding what the concept of infinity is. And please Google "electron", you're seriously...uninformed.

river

I have no idea what thought bubbles sparkle in your brain, but that reply was incomprehensible.

Grumpy:cool:
 
Grumpy

Nothing in this Universe(including the whole Universe itself)is infinite, and if your math or scientific theory says that anything is infinite, it is your math or your scientific understanding that is at fault.
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As I tried to point out before , you don't need mathematics nor science to point out that energy and matter are infinite in their existence

Its not that difficult to understand

If nothing in this universe is in fact not infinite , as you claim , then what allowed this universe to exist ?
 
Grumpy said:
Cyperium

Nothing with mass can ever reach lightspeed, much less "crosses the speed of light without problem". Even the traveler never sees himself at superluminal speeds. Length contraction and time dilation occur at less than light speed to the traveler, they do not affect distances or time in the rest of the Universe. The only thing that travels at light speed is the photon(radiation, light). And nothing in the Universe goes faster than light in a vacuum. To accelerate a single electron to lightspeed takes more energy than the Universe contains. The energy needed for further acceleration "tends toward infinity" when very close to lightspeed, as does mass. If hypernovas and Gamma Ray Bursts, some of the most energetic things in the Universe, are unable to accelerate a particle of matter to or above lightspeed, you can't, either. Relativity says you never will.

Grumpy:cool:
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It depends on how you define speed, objectively you never reach the speed of light, but subjectively you go beyond it since your time is slower than the rest of the universe so you perceive that you are travelling faster. If you were travelling at the speed of light (which can't ever happen) then your time would stop completely and you would have arrived at your destination in no time at all which is infinitely fast. Why don't you read the link about Proper Velocity? It explains it well if you don't trust me.

Another way of seeing this is that in the subjective perspective time doesn't slow down, but instead the universe around speeds up instead (including the rate at which your spacecraft is going in respect to the rest of the universe), as your subjective perspective always follows normal time and doesn't experience any time dilation.
 
That's what I thought Mr. Grumpy You haven't a clue about what science actually teaches about black holes or electrons. Do us all a favor and quit pretending to speak for it. You speak only out of your own ignorance.

This is from Steve Weinburg's "Dreams of a Final Theory":


"[The total energy of the atom] depends on the bare
mass and bare charge of the electron, the mass and
charge that appear in the equations of the theory before
we start worrying about photon emissions and reabsorptions.
But free electrons as well as electrons in atoms are
always emitting and reabsorbing photons that affect
the electron's mass and electric charge, and so the
bare mass and charge are not the same as the
measured electron mass and charge that are listed
in tables of elementary particles. In fact, in order
to account for the observed values (which of course
are finite) of the mass and charge of the electron,
the bare mass and charge must themselves be
infinite. The total energy of the atom is thus the
sum of two terms, both infinite: the bare energy
that is infinite because it depends on the infinite
bare mass and charge, and the energy shift ... that
is infinite because it receives contributions from
virtual photons of unlimited energy."

And here's a quote about black holes from a science website:

"At the center of a black hole lies the singularity, where matter is crushed to infinite density, the pull of gravity is infinitely strong, and spacetime has infinite curvature. Here it's no longer meaningful to speak of space and time, much less spacetime. Jumbled up at the singularity, space and time cease to exist as we know them."----http://archive.ncsa.illinois.edu/Cyberia/NumRel/BlackHoleAnat.html
 
Magical Realist

That's what I thought Mr. Grumpy You haven't a clue about what science actually teaches about black holes or electrons. Do us all a favor and quit pretending to speak for it. You speak only out of your own ignorance.
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You are such a dumbass. I taught physics for thirty years.

This is from Steve Weinburg's "Dreams of a Final Theory":


"[The total energy of the atom] depends on the bare
mass and bare charge of the electron, the mass and
charge that appear in the equations of the theory before
we start worrying about photon emissions and reabsorptions.
But free electrons as well as electrons in atoms are
always emitting and reabsorbing photons that affect
the electron's mass and electric charge, and so the
bare mass and charge are not the same as the
measured electron mass and charge that are listed
in tables of elementary particles. In fact, in order
to account for the observed values (which of course
are finite) of the mass and charge of the electron,
the bare mass and charge must themselves be
infinite. The total energy of the atom is thus the
sum of two terms, both infinite: the bare energy
that is infinite because it depends on the infinite
bare mass and charge, and the energy shift ... that
is infinite because it receives contributions from
virtual photons of unlimited energy."
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Crap.

"At the center of a black hole lies the singularity, where matter is crushed to infinite density, the pull of gravity is infinitely strong, and spacetime has infinite curvature. Here it's no longer meaningful to speak of space and time, much less spacetime. Jumbled up at the singularity, space and time cease to exist as we know them."----http://archive.ncsa.illinois.edu/Cyb...kHoleAnat.html
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Again, our math indicates an infinity, but we have no clue if that is the reality inside the event horizon. And infinities do not exist, period. So that view of what is inside a Black Hole is probably wrong. But they no more know anything about the reality inside the horizon than you do, and you obviously know nothing at all.

Cyperium

It depends on how you define speed, objectively you never reach the speed of light, but subjectively you go beyond it since your time is slower than the rest of the universe so you perceive that you are travelling faster.
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You will notice the effects of your time slowing on your passage through the Universe giving you the perception of going faster than light, but it is an illusion, it is not real speed and you will see no effect that indicates superluminal speed, you would just perceive covering longer distance in your subjective time and if you did succeed in reaching lightspeed(an impossibility)you would witness nothing at all. The time dilation is real, you actually experience the passage of less time, but the perception of you covering vastly greater distances in your subjective time is a mirage as your perceived time is not in the same frame as that distance(IE the Universe at large), in that frame you never exceed lightspeed. It's all Relative, just like Einstein said.

What you would really experience at near lightspeed would look like nothing you've ever imagined. All the light in front of you would be far in the ultraviolet, that behind you disappearing into the infrared and the only thing you would see in visible light would be a ring of colors around you perpendicular to the direction of travel, an Einstein Rainbow. It will take a great deal of computer power and powerful telescopes at all frequencies to reconstruct an image of the local Universe you are travelling through.

Grumpy:cool:
 
Grumpy said:
Cyperium



You will notice the effects of your time slowing on your passage through the Universe giving you the perception of going faster than light, but it is an illusion, it is not real speed and you will see no effect that indicates superluminal speed, you would just perceive covering longer distance in your subjective time and if you did succeed in reaching lightspeed(an impossibility)you would witness nothing at all. The time dilation is real, you actually experience the passage of less time, but the perception of you covering vastly greater distances in your subjective time is a mirage as your perceived time is not in the same frame as that distance(IE the Universe at large), in that frame you never exceed lightspeed. It's all Relative, just like Einstein said.

What you would really experience at near lightspeed would look like nothing you've ever imagined. All the light in front of you would be far in the ultraviolet, that behind you disappearing into the infrared and the only thing you would see in visible light would be a ring of colors around you perpendicular to the direction of travel, an Einstein Rainbow. It will take a great deal of computer power and powerful telescopes at all frequencies to reconstruct an image of the local Universe you are travelling through.

Grumpy:cool:
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Yes, but in a way the subjective view is correct as well, you judge speed as the distance covered during a certain time, and even though your time isn't objective it is still real, you perceive the seconds as normal seconds, you never perceive that time has slowed down (since everything slows down including your perception). So who is to say that what you perceive is false? It's all relative as you say and the truth can also be subjective. After all, it's all subjective, it's only that we agree objectively because we are all travelling at much the same rate. It isn't a illusion, it's simply a different frame of reference. We can never objectively measure something going faster than the speed of light though, but we can subjectively measure it (as we do with our own clock while it is moving near the speed of light). There is no 'correct' frame of reference so there is no illusion, but I might have misunderstood what you meant by illusion, after all the "illusion" comes about because we measure something, but if we measure it then how can it be an illusion? It might not apply to the rest of the universe but it does apply for us subjectively and that is also a truth.
 
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