The Mammoth a giant riddle?

Fraggle Rocker · Mar 9, 2003

Megafauna

originally posted by Nile Queen“And finally the brotherhood of billionaires inducts its first female member.” -- Well Queen Elizabeth is pretty darned wealthy.

The “wealthiest humans” lists don’t agree on whether to include royalty because it can be argued that the wealth belongs to the nation. However, even the lists that grant the Queen title to the crown jewels, etc., don’t tally her wealth at ten figures. Oprah is apparently the first female billionaire by any definition.

“Megafauna don’t seem to go for the high elevations.” -- Well I am having a yak attak. Yax are large and go up into the mountains of Tibet.

“Megafauna” is rather sneakily defined so as to include only extinct land mammals. Cave lion, cave bear, giant sloth, mammoth, woolly rhino, etc. I think we should petition “the Department of They” to include the blue whale. But the yak really doesn’t make it. I don’t think it’s any bigger than a bison. They don’t even count the African elephant as megafauna. Just how big was a sabretooth?

“In the wild when they follow the lead cow they don’t roam so far.” -- Well I'll just have to study herbivores to become a bit more knowledgeable about them.

Interesting that some (elephants and the various species of cattle) are matriarchal and follow a lead cow. Others (horses and sheep) are patriarchal, the males fight for dominance and the winner breeds with all the females.

Should I know Cartman?

Sorry, I forget you’re the only person under 30 who doesn’t watch South Park. Cartman tried to get his pet pig to mate with an elephant. Instead all her babies looked a lot like their third grade teacher. I tell you, cable TV is full of really sophisticated stuff, you don't know what you're missing.

Well polar bears are carnivorous. I think they range pretty far too, even riding around on ice floes to find dinner (seals). Any idea why polar bears have white fur? Supposedly they evolved from brown bears. Of course it was the mammoths that provoked that thought. If mammoths made their home in a snowy environment on a regular basis they would probably develop white fur/hair also. But those encased in permafrost in Siberia have brown fur. Many arctic animals are white, or change colors with the seasons (a totally amazing feat I must say).

Both hunters and the hunted eventually evolve coloring that blends in with the scenery. A great many arctic species are pure white. Changing color is not so uncommon but it’s still a remarkable feat indeed. In dimorphic bird species, the babies all have the duller female plumage until they’re ready to breed. Then the males moult and their foxy feathers grow in. Baby arctic wolves are white so the polar bears can't find them but the adults are darker, perhaps so they can find each other? Polar bears eat a lot of fish like their southern cousins. I’ll bet they catch an occasional seal by surprise, especially when the seals are resting on land or ice and the bears are blending in with the landscape. But seals are so much more fully adapted to marine life, they can probably swim circles around a polar bear. I bought a plush woolly mammoth many years ago and its fur is white. At the time I didn’t realize that was unrealistic.

NileQueen · Mar 10, 2003

muddy megafauna

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originally posted by Nile Queen“And finally the brotherhood of billionaires inducts its first female member.” -- Well Queen Elizabeth is pretty darned wealthy.
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The “wealthiest humans” lists don’t agree on whether to include royalty because it can be argued that the wealth belongs to the nation.
I agree. Such an imbalance there.

quote:
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“Megafauna don’t seem to go for the high elevations.” -- Well I am having a yak attak. Yax are large and go up into the mountains of Tibet.
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“Megafauna” is rather sneakily defined so as to include only extinct land mammals. Cave lion, cave bear, giant sloth, mammoth, woolly rhino, etc. I think we should petition “the Department of They” to include the blue whale. But the yak really doesn’t make it.
Now, now. I am going to have to get technical on you

http://www.salon.com/people/feature/2002/03/07/megafauna/index1.html
"The definition of megafauna was put together by Paul Martin of the University of Arizona, who said that anything with a female adult body weight of more than 100 pounds and now extinct he calls megafauna. It's one of those words that's pretty recent, and it hasn't really been well-defined yet. "
and http://archaeology.about.com/library/glossary/bldef_megafauna.htm
"Definition: Megafauna refers to large-bodied mammals, that is, any mammal weighing more than 100 pounds (45 kilograms).

Examples: As used by archaeologists, the term generally refers to extinct animals, such as woolly mammoths, sabertooth cats, giant ground sloths, mastodons, etc."

I don’t think it’s any bigger than a bison. They don’t even count the African elephant as megafauna.
Only because it is not extinct. Bison and yak fit the size criteria though. But from the first link: "So, really, you can call anything over 100 pounds a megafauna, if it's extinct? " "Yeah, well, really because it's a new field of study, some people would argue that there are existing megafauna. The elephants, obviously, are existing megafauna, and maybe the American bison."

Just how big was a sabretooth?
size of a modern day lion but twice as heavy according to:
http://www.geocities.com/stegob/smilodoncalifornia.html
and
http://www.museum.state.il.us/exhibits/larson/smilodon.html

Interesting that some (elephants and the various species of cattle) are matriarchal and follow a lead cow. Others (horses and sheep) are patriarchal, the males fight for dominance and the winner breeds with all the females.
So in the matriarchal society do the females choose the males?

quote:
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Should I know Cartman?
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Sorry, I forget you’re the only person under 30 who doesn’t watch South Park. Cartman tried to get his pet pig to mate with an elephant. Instead all her babies looked a lot like their third grade teacher. I tell you, cable TV is full of really sophisticated stuff, you don't know what you're missing.
Yes indeed. Somehow I think I have plenty to entertain myself with, without Cartman. And you are making gross assumptions about my age

I could be 10. I could be 31. I could be 71.

[polar bears]Both hunters and the hunted eventually evolve coloring that blends in with the scenery. A great many arctic species are pure white. Changing color is not so uncommon but it’s still a remarkable feat indeed. In dimorphic bird species, the babies all have the duller female plumage until they’re ready to breed. Then the males moult and their foxy feathers grow in. Baby arctic wolves are white so the polar bears can't find them but the adults are darker, perhaps so they can find each other? Polar bears eat a lot of fish like their southern cousins. I’ll bet they catch an occasional seal by surprise, especially when the seals are resting on land or ice and the bears are blending in with the landscape. But seals are so much more fully adapted to marine life, they can probably swim circles around a polar bear. I bought a plush woolly mammoth many years ago and its fur is white. At the time I didn’t realize that was unrealistic.
That's because it is a hybrid. It was crossed with the abominable snowman from Rudolph the Red nosed Reindeer. It is probably worth a fortune.

More about the Siberian mammoth research http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2002/01/03/mammoth/index.html?x the focus is on cloning in this article

Forget Southpark, what about Pleistocene Park? http://www.faculty.uaf.edu/fffsc/concept.html
"In 1989 Sergei Zimov initiated a small-scale experiment to attempt to reconvert these areas to productive grassland by reintroducing grazers. "

http://cluster4.biosci.utexas.edu/deathvalley/Art/paleoart.htm
The Ice Age in Western North America

http://vn.vladnews.ru/Arch/2002/ISS324/News/upd14.HTM
Japanese professor plans Pleistocene Park

Fraggle Rocker · Mar 10, 2003

Re: muddy megafauna

Originally posted by NileQueen
I am going to have to get technical on you. "The definition of megafauna was put together by Paul Martin of the University of Arizona, who said that anything with a female adult body weight of more than 100 pounds and now extinct he calls megafauna. It's one of those words that's pretty recent, and it hasn't really been well-defined yet." But from the first link: "So, really, you can call anything over 100 pounds a megafauna, if it's extinct?" "Yeah, well, really because it's a new field of study, some people would argue that there are existing megafauna. The elephants, obviously, are existing megafauna, and maybe the American bison."

Why the heck not whales? By that definition Neanderthals were probably megafauna. What a silly definition! What purposes does it serve? I always figured the word "megafauna" was coined to identify animals so big that they had no natural predators. Or only predators that were also megafauna. A hundred pounds is pretty small, a wolf or a jaguar would have a good chance at it.

"Interesting that some grazers (elephants and the various species of cattle) are matriarchal and follow a lead cow. Others (horses and sheep) are patriarchal, the males fight for dominance and the winner breeds with all the females." --- So in the matriarchal society do the females choose the males?

Since the females have no interest in acquiring a harem like the males do, they court in the one-on-one fashion more familiar to us. I've never seen any info on whether one gender preens and the other chooses.

"I forget you’re the only person under 30 who doesn’t watch South Park." --- You are making gross assumptions about my age.

Sorry. I get used to just about everybody here being no more than half my own age. Let me revise that to 21. Women on either side of that guess are usually flattered by it.

NileQueen · Mar 12, 2003

book discussion?

Why the heck not whales?

Why the heck not indeed? If we all use "megafauna" for any large creatures extinct or not, the definition will change to accommodate.

I always figured the word "megafauna" was coined to identify animals so big that they had no natural predators.

So you picked that up from context? I made no such assumptions since I was ignorant of the precise definition (but we will certainly make them adapt to a more thinker-friendly definition

)

Or only predators that were also megafauna. A hundred pounds is pretty small, a wolf or a jaguar would have a good chance at it.

And so how large is a megaflora? Hand-size? Or poppy size vs. pollen size?

Sorry. I get used to just about everybody here being no more than half my own age. Let me revise that to 21. Women on either side of that guess are usually flattered by it.

Everybody. So your wife is at least half your age

If you are 50 she is no more than 25

Just using your own statements against you

We shouldn't make you any younger than 36 then... I am not susceptible to flattery but I understand the sentiment.

And you are probably not going to get in trouble with that philosophy.

We need to learn more about mammoths. I have started reading Mammoth, the resurrection of an ice age giant, by Richard Stone.
Do you want to get that book and we can read and discuss it?
Anyone else want to join us? I found it in paperback form at Hawley Cooke booksellers.

NQ

isbn # 0-7382-0775-6 published August 2002

river-wind · Mar 18, 2003

a few quick notes-
Polar Bears are relatives of the North American Brown Bear- their skin is black underneith a think multi-layer of hollow, clear hairs which only apear white because of light refraction in the hair tubes. For sure, they evolved a white coat to camoflauge into their surroundings, but they also managed to not freeze to death from reflecting all the nice warm sunlight off of a truely white coat. The photo-refracting coat of a polar bear directs about half of the incoming light in, towards the dark skin of the animal, helping to keep it warm.

large herbavores that travel great distances- actually a large numer of herbavorves travels huge distances annually, from wildabeast to African elefants toAmerican Buffalo. Often times these animals are traveling for the sake of following food. As these animals are herbivors, following food most often involves following the retreat of fresh water during a prolonged dry season.
http://www.nioo.knaw.nl/homepages/k....pdf+migrating+herbivore+large&hl=en&ie=UTF-8]a long but educational description of migration of Serengetti herbivors[/URL]

and bit off topic, but usefull for showing current large herbivor/human interaction

herbivors that go to high elevations- you won't often see herbivors the size of elephants a really high elevations for two reasons: food supply and footing. higher elevation, thinner plant coverage, and more often than not, steeper slopes. You will find Yak, mountain goats, llammas, alpacas, and may other mid-sized herbivors, though. Ecuador and many other south american countries is currently fighting a battle with high-altitude populations of introduced European milk goats, which have gone ferral and are killing alot of the indiginous flora.

as for plant extremes- The current plant-like" size champion is a fungus which resides in Main/New hanpshire, which is dozens of miles across, living a few inches under the surface of the soil. not exactly a plant though, so the bush you mention is the technical plant leader. the Current sequoias are some of the largest plants ever in the history of the world. This is largley due to the fact that plants did not evolve true vascular tissue until after the dinosaurs had gone extinct, limiting vasular's plant's chances to get much larger. The main issue limiting plant height today is the difficultly of passivly pumping water from the roots of the plant all the way up to the leaves. capilary action works only co well, and reverse pressure through evaporation doesn't explain how trees manage to survive. Scientists are still trying to figure out how modern trees succeed in getting water all the way up the trunk. My old Botany prof was big into"tree popping" the sounds that trees make as the water columns inside the trunks break due to gravity.

another fun thread. I like this board. you people have cool questions and ideas!

edit: also in matriarichal social structure in mamells, there is no set pattersn is how mating is decided. In some (like bonobos), females will mate will multiple males, suposedly to confuse the issue of fatherhood- that way all the kids will be looked after by all the males- who knows if this one kid is yours or not.
In Elephants, the females signal their readyness to mate to secreating a hormone from behind their eys (if you ever see some video of an elephant who looks like they are crying from the side of their skull, it is a female ready to mate). The males will then show off a bit, and iff the female aproves, they will mate.

Fraggle Rocker · Mar 18, 2003

White arctic mammals, promiscuity as a survival trait

Originally posted by river-wind
For sure, [mammoths] evolved a white coat to camoflauge into their surroundings, but they also managed to not freeze to death from reflecting all the nice warm sunlight off of a truly white coat. The photo-refracting coat of a polar bear directs about half of the incoming light in, towards the dark skin of the animal, helping to keep it warm.

I always wondered how an arctic animal could stay warm with a white coat. Thanks for explaining that. How about other species like the arctic hare? Do they have the same kind of hairs?

Wait a minute... What did mammoths have to hide from that they needed camouflage? Modern adult African elephants are virtually invulnerable to predators; what could take on a mammoth without getting squashed?

In some (like bonobos), females will mate will multiple males, supposedly to confuse the issue of fatherhood- that way all the kids will be looked after by all the males- who knows if this one kid is yours or not.

Female dogs do that too. They'll mate with every male in the pack. It's been explained that none of the male dogs will hurt the puppies. But in the breed we work with, Lhasa Apsos, it's the females that are the bullies. The males do ritual combat until one yields. They especially like to lurch at each other from opposite sides of a glass door like fighting fish. Then if you have to open the door they settle down and talk about sports until you close it again. But the females draw blood and it's they whom the males have to keep separated from each other's babies. It's an unusual breed, developed to be autonomous guard dogs, they have a high incidence of the alpha gene, even the females. They're not so much matriarchal or patriarchal as simply anarchic. Nobody leads, nobody follows.

NileQueen · Mar 19, 2003

river-wind:

The photo-refracting coat of a polar bear directs about half of the incoming light in, towards the dark skin of the animal, helping to keep it warm.

What you are not saying is that the polar bear's fur is clear not white?

And my comparison of polar bear to mammoth (lots found in Siberia and Alaska) is that the polar bear evolved white fur (supposedly evolving from the brown bear) to adapt to the snowy climate but the mammoth (at least the specimens found frozen with hair) are brown, so they did not adapt to snowy climates.

river-wind I can't get that nl link to work. Can you fix it?

r-w:

Scientists are still trying to figure out how modern trees succeed in getting water all the way up the trunk. My old Botany prof was big into"tree popping" the sounds that trees make as the water columns inside the trunks break due to gravity.

Tell me more about this tree-popping. I am a woodland dweller. I hear the noises the trees make swaying in the wind but I am not so sure about this phenomenon.

r-w;

another fun thread. I like this board. you people have cool questions and ideas!

Thanks. So do you.

r-w:

"a few quick notes- "

ha ha! I like your style

Fraggle Rocker:

I have been eagerly awaiting the appearance of that word. Considering how anglophone scholars adore inconsistency, it will probably mean “one million flowers.”

A humorous point. ... A thousand flowers is millifiori in Italian

FR:

“Too big to kill an adult, extinct, mammalian, and not aquatic.” Those are still the only four commonalities I can find among the species that I ever saw called megafauna until your last posting.

Why limit yourself?! Let's call whales megafauna by all means. Do you see anyone trying to stop us?

:m: :m: :m: megaflora but where is the megatiger? mega-me, mega-you... (to the music of ABBA,"knowing me, knowing you, uh-huh...)I am throwing out the extinxion parameter, it is more funny to have megabeasts of modern times

And I am over 100 lbs.

if we decide to keep that part of the definition

Welcome, river-wind creature

river-wind · Mar 19, 2003

thanks for the welcome!

NQ-I can't find the exact file I was looking at, but
http://www.nioo.knaw.nl/homepages/koppel/
clickc on "research"
gives a list of all the guy's research, much of it partaining to savanah grazing.

polar bear fur-
http://www.geobop.com/Mammals/Carnivora/Ursidae/Ursus_maritimus/

I wonder what a shaved polar bear would actually look like? a bit like a wet cat?

river-wind · Mar 19, 2003

tree poping.

If you were to put a sensitive microphone up to a large tree, you would hear occational snapping noises (it's very quiet, hard to hear with your ears alone). for about 30 years. botanists have been trying to figure out what that sounds was.
Some one suggested that gravity pulling down on water that is being pulled up the tree's trunk tears the surface tention of the water. imagine a clear tube, stood up vertically in a pan of water. If you were to apply a small amount of negative pressure (ie apply suction) to the top of the tube, some of the water will move up the tube, against gravity. if you are putting only just enough pull on the water so that it advances really, really slowly, then the water is being puled up and pulled down at nearly the same rate.
for eample
pressureUp(x+1)-gravityDown(x)=water moves up at rate of 1
(x+1)-x=1
if for whatever reason that pull from above drops to exactly x, you have a stalemate- gravity is pulling down at the same rate as pressure is pulling up ('pressure pulling up' is inacurate, but it sufices for now). In this case, it may be posisble for the column of water in the tube to break- and form a vaccumous buble halfway up. When this happens, a "pop" can be heard.

For plants, this event could be deadly. the energy required to pull water up through a tube when the entire tube is filled with water is much less than when you are pulling bubbles along with it. This is because water is attracted to itself-pull one water molecule slowly, and all the rest will follow. In the tube this gives you an advantage- you get both your negative pressure and attraction between water molecules working to move the column of water. If there is a vaccum, or wose yet, an actually air bubble, you are then relying on vaccum force only to move the water. If such a bubble forms (one that streches completely across the tube, seperating the water column), the tree could die. This is why, when re-potting a house plant, you water immediatly after planting. you have to prevent those bubbles!

I cannot find a single link to verify the following, but my college prof was reaserching how trees can survive these bubbles forming in their vascular tissue. No one really knows how they do it, as classical wisdom says that the plant should die- it doesn't have the ability to remove these breaks in the water column.

But this poping noise that can be heard in living, full grown trees suggests that they not only have a method for eliminating these breaks, but that they do it all the time. The last I had heard about the issue, there was no suggested theory on how they might be doing it.

NileQueen · Mar 20, 2003

bubble chatter

I wonder what a shaved polar bear would actually look like? a bit like a wet cat?

cajun blackened chicken

tree poping. :If you were to put a sensitive microphone up to a large tree, you would hear occational snapping noises...for about 30 years. botanists have been trying to figure out what that sounds was.

1. static in the microphone
2. woodland spirits living in the tree

3. this is akin to ghostbuster photo ops

Good link on the polar bear. I see you are an informacion magitian.

Fraggle Rocker · Mar 21, 2003

Well, I just keep getting proven wrong...

This time about adult African elephants being "virtually invulnerable to predators." I forgot that lions hunt in packs.

Jon Stewart just had a guest on who took a safari to Africa and got a lot of surprises. Most of which were due to having watched the Discovery Channel too much. "Lions don't hunt at night," they'd told him. So he and his family are out in the middle of nowhere in a Land Rover with a guide about midnight, and five female lions start circling the car. Fortunately, they were saved because the lions were distracted... by an elephant who happened to amble over to see what was going on in his territory. One lion actually was able to jump up onto his back while the other four nipped and clawed at the rest of him.

I don't know who won because as soon as the lions' attention was diverted the Land Rover did a very fast U-turn and returned to camp. I'm just going to assume that one elephant eventually triumphed over a mere five lions and limped home to tell his buddies about how he bravely rescued a whole family of humans.

But it raises the question of whether cave lions or sabretooths also fought in packs and could have had a Mammoth Happy Meal. It's very unusual in the feline family, as far as I know lions are the only species in modern times. (Well cheetahs hunt in pairs, so I'm told.) But it only takes one species to really upset the food chain.

NileQueen · Mar 21, 2003

Mammoth milestone.

Yes Fraggle, you've been rather obstinate in your views

Wolves also hunt in packs, piranhas hunt in a school, and also, there were some oversized (larger than modern day lions) cats living at the time of the mammoths. So mammoths were not exclusive lords of the steppes or savannahs or tearooms or whatever.

NileQueen · Mar 21, 2003

I just hope you didn't have predatory thoughts about him