The Lost Experiment

Tach, I'll take that to mean that you don't disagree with those facts, since you haven't told me which, if any you disagree with after I asked you to do so.

I also asked you how do figure the "weight' of the earth is increasing while moving AWAY from the sun?? You fail to answer the questions, Tach. Only in your ignorance does the weight of the earth increase, when compared to the sun. You say gravity is accelerating the earth TOWARDS the sun? How can that be, since the earth is moving AWAY from the sun?
 
Motor Daddy said:
Tach, I'll take that to mean that you don't disagree with those facts, since you haven't told me which, if any you disagree with after I asked you to do so.

I also asked you how do figure the "weight' of the earth is increasing while moving AWAY from the sun?? You fail to answer the questions, Tach. Only in your ignorance does the weight of the earth increase, when compared to the sun. You say gravity is accelerating the earth TOWARDS the sun? How can that be, when the earth is moving AWAY from the sun?
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I don't say any of the above idiocies, YOU DO.
I can smell you from miles. You stink pretty bad. Go away.
 
Tach said:
I don't say any of the above idiocies, YOU DO.
I can smell you from miles. You stink pretty bad. Go away.
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You must have a better nose than a whitetail deer, because they only smell me from a few hundred yards away, depending on the wind direction.

Are you sure it's me you smell, because it might be your own stench, since you are full of it.
 
Motor Daddy said:
You say gravity is accelerating the earth TOWARDS the sun? How can that be, since the earth is moving AWAY from the sun?
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Gravity is constantly accelerating the Earth towards the Sun. It is also constantly trying to depart the area by virtue of its momentum. These two forces cancel - which is why the result is a circular orbit.
 
billvon said:
Gravity is constantly accelerating the Earth towards the Sun. It is also constantly trying to depart the area by virtue of its momentum. These two forces cancel - which is why the result is a circular orbit.
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The earth is moving away from the sun. You saying the earth is accelerating towards the sun implies the rate of change of velocity of the earth towards the sun is either increasing or decreasing. Since the earth is moving AWAY from the sun, and you say the earth is accelerating towards the sun, you are implying the rate at which the earth is moving away from the sun is decreasing. That implies that the rate was greater at an earlier time.

So really what you are saying is that the earth in previous days was part of the sun, and the earth departed the sun and moved away from the sun, and as time goes by, that rate at which the earth is moving away is decreasing, hence accelerating, or rather, decelerating (which is also a rate of change of velocity).
 
Motor Daddy said:
The earth is moving away from the sun. You saying the earth is accelerating towards the sun implies the rate of change of velocity of the earth towards the sun is either increasing or decreasing.
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It is, all the time. The Earth moves about 3 million miles in and out during its orbit.

Since the earth is moving AWAY from the sun . . .
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Sometimes it's moving away (i.e. its radial velocity vector is positive) and sometimes it's moving towards (i.e. its radial velocity vector is negative.)

So really what you are saying is that the earth in previous days was part of the sun, and the earth departed the sun and moved away from the sun, and as time goes by, that rate at which the earth is moving away is decreasing, hence accelerating, or rather, decelerating (which is also a rate of change of velocity).
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Nope.
 
billvon said:
It is, all the time. The Earth moves about 3 million miles in and out during its orbit.
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Yeah, and as time goes by, the size of the orbit INCREASES. In other words, the distance the earth has to travel around the sun is INCREASING. In more specific terms, in the future, the earth will be as far away from the sun as mars is today. In the past, mars was closer to the sun, like we are today. Do you comprehend English well enough to understand that?
 
Motor Daddy said:
Yeah, and as time goes by, the size of the orbit INCREASES. In other words, the distance the earth has to travel around the sun is INCREASING.
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Sometimes. Sometimes it decreases. It is currently decreasing, for example. The Earth was 94,509,100 miles from the sun on July 4th of this year (the aphelion) and is now getting closer to the sun. It will be at its closest, 91,402,500 miles, on January 5th of this year (perihelion.)

Do you comprehend English well enough to understand that?
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You seem to have issues with both anger and science.
 
Motor Daddy said:
Yeah, and as time goes by, the size of the orbit INCREASES. In other words, the distance the earth has to travel around the sun is INCREASING. In more specific terms, in the future, the earth will be as far away from the sun as mars is today. In the past, mars was closer to the sun, like we are today. Do you comprehend English well enough to understand that?
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Can you demonstrate that the rate of change is sufficient that within the last 4.5 billion years Mars was as close to the Sun as we are now?

Please show your calculations.
 
Motor Daddy said:
4. The earth has angular momentum around the sun.
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Motor Daddy, the above statement says that the Earth spins on its axis..., around the sun???

Angular momentum is not the same as orbital velocity.

Not commenting on the facts just what appears to be a mistake is terms.
 
I am rushing at present in preparation for a trip out of state, so I will most like not be able to follow this up. A least not in a timely manner...

The Moon's orbit of the Earth has changed over time, as has the length of a day, on Earth. The day in a very distant past was at one time as short as six hours and the moon very much closer. The Moon's orbit has moved farther out and the length of a day is now 24 hours (give or take). We have no evidence that the Moon's orbit has stabilized.

I have also seen some reference to the effect that the Earth's orbit around the Sun is also not completely stable and that the Earth's orbit is slowly moving away from the Sun.

I was not at the time focused on this point of information, so I made no reference notes. It will therefor be difficult if even possible for me to locate the source(s).

Even should the information above be from a credible source, which at the moment I cannot say with certainty, the changes suggested occur over a time frame that would make it difficult to say whether such a variation in the Earth's orbit is cyclical or a result of some fundamental instability. In either case it is at such a small rate of change none of us will need to worry about any potential consequences.

Edit: This is not the original source for the moon earth day and distance but it was easy to find http://www.drury.edu/multinl/story.cfm?ID=3973&NLID=41

And this one mentions the Earth-Sun distance increase

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=317

There is an effect which is making us move very slowly away from the Sun. That is the tidal interaction between the Sun and the Earth. This slows down the rotation of the Sun, and pushes the Earth farther away from the Sun. You can read about tides, as they relate to the Earth-Moon system here. The principle for the Sun-Earth system should be the same. But how big of an effect is this? It turns out that the yearly increase in the distance between the Earth and the Sun from this effect is only about one micrometer (a millionth of a meter, or a ten thousandth of a centimeter). So this is a *very* tiny effect.​
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Motor Daddy said:
Look at the sun-earth relationship as an example.

In order for the sun to heat the earth the sun must transfer mass to the earth, in effect, the sun gets less massive and the earth gets more massive (I didn't say more dense). Since the earth has angular momentum around the sun, transferring energy from the sun to earth means the earth gains angular momentum and the sun's mass has decreased. That means the earth's orbit gets larger, and the earth moves away from the sun. So how is it again you measure the increased "weight" of the earth when in fact it is moving away from the sun, not towards the sun??
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I agree Motor Daddy, the concept is solid - the angular momentum of the earth sun system is changing because the sun's mass is decreasing. However, the earth is pretty much at thermal equilibrium with the sun, so its mass is not increasing.


wlminex said:
. . however . . . density of metals (mass/volume) DOES change with temperature. . . due to expansion/contraction of the metal with temperature changes. That's why (for instance) one must chill one metal part (or heat the other mating piece) so that it fits onto a mating piece . . . this is how roller-bearing races are "tight-fit" to axles when the temperatures equalize.
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I think you're onto the right idea here wlminex.
For instance - if the metal expanded so much that its density was equivalent to that of air, any scale on earth would read '0'. This is of course a dramatic example but even a slight decrease in density should have a similar effect, in reducing the apparent weight of the object.

edit: I meant decrease in density... :p
 
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Motor Daddy:

Motor Daddy said:
Look at the sun-earth relationship as an example.

In order for the sun to heat the earth the sun must transfer mass to the earth, in effect, the sun gets less massive and the earth gets more massive (I didn't say more dense).
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It is true that the Sun loses a little mass during nuclear fusion, and some of that energy is radiated away as light.

The Earth is in thermal equilibrium, however. It receives light from the Sun, but it re-radiates as much energy back out into space as it receives from the Sun. If that was not true, then the Earth would keep heating up and we'd all boil.

Since the earth has angular momentum around the sun, transferring energy from the sun to earth means the earth gains angular momentum and the sun's mass has decreased. That means the earth's orbit gets larger, and the earth moves away from the sun.
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Please cite a reputable scientific source that shows that the Earth is moving away from the Sun - preferably one that gives a reason.

Thanks.

Motor Daddy said:
You say gravity is accelerating the earth TOWARDS the sun? How can that be, since the earth is moving AWAY from the sun?
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The Earth must always accelerate towards the Sun, or else it wouldn't be in orbit. There is a constant gravitational force on the Earth, exerted by the Sun. F=ma, so constant force means constant acceleration towards the Sun.
 
I added this as an edit to my earlier post but thought I should probably post it anyway...

This first link is not the original source (from memory) for the earth day and earth-moon distance but it was easy to find http://www.drury.edu/multinl/story.cfm?ID=3973&NLID=41

And this one mentions the Earth-Sun distance increase (not really a significant change 1 meter in a million years?)

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=317

There is an effect which is making us move very slowly away from the Sun. That is the tidal interaction between the Sun and the Earth. This slows down the rotation of the Sun, and pushes the Earth farther away from the Sun. You can read about tides, as they relate to the Earth-Moon system here. The principle for the Sun-Earth system should be the same. But how big of an effect is this? It turns out that the yearly increase in the distance between the Earth and the Sun from this effect is only about one micrometer (a millionth of a meter, or a ten thousandth of a centimeter). So this is a *very* tiny effect.​
​
 
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