The liberal v right wing mentality...

[Syne]

Yeah, TYT (named after those responsible for the Armenian genocide).
They just can't figure out why adults shouldn't be held responsible for the legal agreements they make (and the responsibility to know what they are agreeing to).

My "accusation" stands. You guys gave us Trump, just like you gave us W.

As with Trump, I didn't vote for W either. Just more of your stereotyping bigotry.

Formally, plurality and majority are different words with different meanings. 10% of the population can be a plurality. A majority means more than 50%.

And? Does it make you feel better to pretend you've made a point no one refutes?
I told you I used the term informally. If you can't accept that, then that's you're own issue with reality.

You did. You posted the stats, I pointed at them. According to your stats, at least 2/3 of the black people who label themselves "conservative" voted Democratic in the last election.
Before that, I simply directed your attention to an obvious demographic situation you had mentioned earlier: a higher percentage of blacks than whites are demographically identical with typical Trump voters, but they vote Democratic as you said. (This has been true of other racial groups as well - Latinos and Hispanics are quite conservative socially and socioeconomically typical Republican core voters, but they also vote Democratic in general). Your attempted explanation made no sense. You have had time to think - have you come up with anything better?

Or are you going to double down on your claim that blacks conservatives voting Democratic are as rare as Bigfoot sightings, and prove it with Youtube videos? (By the evidence a higher percentage of white people believe in Bigfoot than black people vote Republican - and they make lots of Youtube videos).

LOL! "Uncle Tom", "house nigger", "not a real black", etc.. There are so many ways the black community shames otherwise conservative blacks to vote liberal by social pressure. These aren't things white people call blacks, they're things blacks (and maybe liberal whites) call other blacks. Just like conservatives in Hollywood, being an openly black Republican can be detrimental, only in the black community, it can subject them to actual violence.
Minorities also utilize more government aid, as a percentage, than whites. So simple self-interest seems to trump principles in their voting patterns.

Typical rightwing mentality: faced with overwhelming evidence, you guys post Youtube videos. Before that, it was talk radio rants. And you probably got them wrong anyway.

Some do. Most don't - according to your posted statistics. Do you assume all Hawaiians play the ukelele? Lots of Youtube videos.

More "you guys" stereotyping bigotry in lieu of actually supporting your claims. You seem to think transparent straw man arguments like "all Hawaiians" are going to fool anyone. It is telling that this is your go-to strategy though. Projection?

 

[iceaura]

As with Trump, I didn't vote for W either. Just more of your stereotyping bigotry.

You guys gave us Trump, and W. You need to grow up, and stop doing things like that.

I told you I used the term informally.

You used the term wrong. You made false claims.

LOL! "Uncle Tom", "house nigger", "not a real black", etc.. There are so many ways the black community shames otherwise conservative blacks to vote liberal by social pressure.

Yeah, you go, girl: keep telling us how "the black community" thinks and talks - and why they refuse to vote, on a secret ballot, Republican. Right after you compared my claim of seeing conservative black Democratic voters to a claim of sighting Bigfoot.

Look: You claimed that the black Democratic voters were leftists and/or liberals. I pointed out that was silly. You then posted proof that it is not only silly but statistically impossible - by a huge margin. It's not even close to being possible. So we have between us established, as a simple fact, that voting Democratic does not mean black people are liberals or leftists. That's also true of white people, btw.

Minorities also utilize more government aid, as a percentage, than whites.

Depends on who's counting. They don't get big tax breaks on their mortgage interest, or carried interest deductions, or the like. They get significantly less benefit from Social Security and Medicare (lower earnings, shorter lives). They pay far more and get far less from the police, courts, and schools. Have you done your arithmetic? Or is this another one of those "informal" claims that we're not supposed to take seriously?

Because we get a whole lot of stuff from the right wing conservative mentality that cannot be taken seriously by anyone who uses words according to their meanings, and puts stock in agreement with physical reality. It's a mental characteristic of that faction - that faction presents fruit loops for logic, makes very silly claims of "fact", requires that words mean whatever they want to mean by them at any given moment, and demands bizarre fantasies be treated as reality, on a regular basis. And that's a difference worth looking at, re the OP.

 

[Syne]

You guys gave us Trump, and W. You need to grow up, and stop doing things like that.

Quit lying, bigot. I didn't vote for either, and your bigoted stereotyping me with people who did constitutes a repeated, willful misrepresentation of my views.
You feeling the need to do this obviously underscores how weak you know your arguments, if we can call them that, really are. It's sad to watch.

You used the term wrong. You made false claims.

Nope. You're just too bigoted to accept what someone says...when it runs contrary to your bigoted stereotype of the person.
You're so insecure you have to demand cherry-picked definitions to pretend to have made any valid point.
Again, it's sad to watch.

Yeah, you go, girl: keep telling us how "the black community" thinks and talks - and why they refuse to vote, on a secret ballot, Republican. Right after you compared my claim of seeing conservative black Democratic voters to a claim of sighting Bigfoot.

Look: You claimed that the black Democratic voters were leftists and/or liberals. I pointed out that was silly. You then posted proof that it is not only silly but statistically impossible - by a huge margin. It's not even close to being possible. So we have between us established, as a simple fact, that voting Democratic does not mean black people are liberals or leftists. That's also true of white people, btw.

You're the one who dismisses every example of blacks speaking on their own behalf (like video examples), as if liberal whites are somehow their only spokesmen. There are countless examples of blacks, even in the media, calling black Republicans "Uncle Toms" and "house niggers". Do you deny those?
And you do know that we only know voting demographics from exit polls, don't you?

How can the exit polls be off by so much? The biggest thing to remember is that they’re just polls! They’re usually based on a sample of a few dozen precincts or so in a state, sometimes not even including many more than 1,000 respondents. Like every other type of survey, they’re subject to a margin of error because of sampling and additional error resulting from various forms of response bias.
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/05/upshot/exit-polls-why-they-so-often-mislead.html​

Maybe you should look up social desirability bias too.
I've already demonstrated that government aid is obviously a priority in black voting and only one party panders to that. Government aid is counter to such conservative principles as self-sufficiency and personal responsibility. You'd have to show how they define "conservative" before you could make pronouncements about how that compares generally...which you haven't done. You've merely assumed the self-reported label as equivalent to its use by any other demographic...again asserting your white presumptions over a likely more nuanced label.

Depends on who's counting. They don't get big tax breaks on their mortgage interest, or carried interest deductions, or the like. They get significantly less benefit from Social Security and Medicare (lower earnings, shorter lives). They pay far more and get far less from the police, courts, and schools. Have you done your arithmetic? Or is this another one of those "informal" claims that we're not supposed to take seriously?

Because we get a whole lot of stuff from the right wing conservative mentality that cannot be taken seriously by anyone who uses words according to their meanings, and puts stock in agreement with physical reality. It's a mental characteristic of that faction - that faction presents fruit loops for logic, makes very silly claims of "fact", requires that words mean whatever they want to mean by them at any given moment, and demands bizarre fantasies be treated as reality, on a regular basis. And that's a difference worth looking at, re the OP.

No. Tax breaks aren't government aid. Keeping more of what you actually earn is not equivalent to receiving aid you don't....except maybe in your little world. Demonstrate that they pay more for schools, even though its the tax revenue in their communities that limit their school budgets. Or are you saying the Democrat politicians are robbing their schools...while denying them school choice?

Notice how you never provide any supporting sources for any of the nonsense proclamation you make. Pathetic.

 

[iceaura]

Quit lying, bigot. I didn't vote for either, and your bigoted stereotyping me with people who did constitutes a repeated, willful misrepresentation of my views.

No, it doesn't. It assigns personal responsibility to you for your promotion of your views. That's a conservative principle.

You're so insecure you have to demand cherry-picked definitions to pretend to have made any valid point

"Cherry-picked definitions"?
That's my favorite illustration of the rightwing mentality in this thread so far.

You're the one who dismisses every example of blacks speaking on their own behalf (like video examples), as if liberal whites are somehow their only spokesmen

How is a person speaking on their own behalf a "spokesman"? How does dismissal of your wingnut videos as evidence of anything except their own existence become dismissal of anything else?

I've already demonstrated that government aid is obviously a priority in black voting and only one party panders to that

Typing claims is not the same as "demonstrating" them. Repeatedly typing them does not make them come true. When they are racist, dumb, and false, repeating them does not reinforce your arguments.

You've merely assumed the self-reported label as equivalent to its use by any other demographic...again asserting your white presumptions over a likely more nuanced label.

You posted the self-reporting numbers. I specifically noted that your supposed evidence was dubious, but you insisted on my taking it seriously - you insisted that I assume the numbers were accurate. So I did. I accepted your numbers, and your assumptions, against my better judgment.

Then I did some arithmetic with them.

No. Tax breaks aren't government aid.

Uh, yes, they are - sometimes. So are direct subsidies and handovers of taxpayer money - quite often.

And you do know that we only know voting demographics from exit polls, don't you?

Nonsense. Voting demographics are often based on the recorded votes, and the demographics of the voting area.

How can the exit polls be off by so much?

Short answer is they aren't, in general.
Why are you even talking about exit polls?

Government aid is counter to such conservative principles as self-sufficiency and personal responsibility.

So you claim. You have to make a decision, then: Either your definition of conservatives includes white people without such principles, or most of the white people who call themselves conservative are not identifying themselves accurately. When you have decided which way you want to go, you can turn your attention to whether black people who call themselves conservative (and have all the same basic personal characteristics as Trump voters) are true conservatives or not.

Meanwhile, I have four million examples of black conservatives, identified exactly as white conservatives are identified, who support BLM. How many videos do you have?

 

[Syne]

No, it doesn't. It assigns personal responsibility to you for your promotion of your views. That's a conservative principle.

My views were "never Trump", so yes, you are grossly misrepresenting my views and what they promote. But lying bigots like you don't really care about facts...or principles.

"Cherry-picked definitions"?
That's my favorite illustration of the rightwing mentality in this thread so far.

More of you denying facts?

majority

1. obsolete : the quality or state of being greater
   
   
2. 2a : the age at which full civil rights are accorded The age of majority in the U.S. is 18.b : the status of one who has attained this age graduated … before he had attained his majority — W. L. Burrage
   
   
3. 3a : a number or percentage equaling more than half of a total a majority of voters a two-thirds majorityb : the excess of a majority over the remainder of the total : margin won by a majority of 10 votesc : the greater quantity or share the majority of the time
   
   
4. 4 : the group or political party having the greater number of votes (as in a legislature)
   
   
5. 5 : the military office, rank, or commission of a major majorities and colonelcies were thick as June blackberries — Dixon Wecter

- https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/majority​

And since I've already agreed that my usage aligned, formally, with a plurality, you seem to be harping on this only because you think it's scoring you some points or something equally silly.

How is a person speaking on their own behalf a "spokesman"? How does dismissal of your wingnut videos as evidence of anything except their own existence become dismissal of anything else?

Wait, are you black?!
Why are blacks that disagree with you "wingnuts"? Can you really not comprehend that some blacks can think as independent individuals?

Typing claims is not the same as "demonstrating" them. Repeatedly typing them does not make them come true. When they are racist, dumb, and false, repeating them does not reinforce your arguments.

Fact:

You claiming facts are racist is just willful ignorance of the facts.

Uh, yes, they are - sometimes. So are direct subsidies and handovers of taxpayer money - quite often.

No, tax breaks are never government aid. No matter how much you may wish to conflate them with subsidies, which are.
You just keep talking out of your hat.

Nonsense. Voting demographics are often based on the recorded votes, and the demographics of the voting area.

Thanks for demonstrating your ignorance.

Short answer is they aren't, in general.
Why are you even talking about exit polls?

Again, thanks for demonstrating your willful ignorance of facts.

So you claim. You have to make a decision, then: Either your definition of conservatives includes white people without such principles, or most of the white people who call themselves conservative are not identifying themselves accurately. When you have decided which way you want to go, you can turn your attention to whether black people who call themselves conservative (and have all the same basic personal characteristics as Trump voters) are true conservatives or not.

See the Pew Research data above. 15% of whites versus 31% of blacks on food stamps. 22% of Democrats versus only 10% of Republicans. Obviously self-reported conservatives do differ, since some are black and Democrat, exceeding the average among all conservatives, and others are white and Republican, both below the average for self-reported conservatives.

Meanwhile, I have four million examples of black conservatives, identified exactly as white conservatives are identified, who support BLM. How many videos do you have?

Show me the evidence of these four million black conservative BLM supporters then.

 

[iceaura]

My views were "never Trump", so yes, you are grossly misrepresenting my views and what they promote.

Your views were and are as posted here. They gave us Trump, and before him W, and along with those two the rest of the Republican Party - whether you favored such consequences or not, you and your kind are accountable for them.

Show me the evidence of these four million black conservative BLM supporters then.

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/the-fall-of-trumpcare.159121/page-9#post-3457740

Why are blacks that disagree with you "wingnuts"? Can you really not comprehend that some blacks can think as independent individuals?

The question was how you came to describe them as "spokesmen".
Nobody ever doubted the existence of videos of "independent" black thinking - even flat out crazy, paranoid, conspiracy-befuddled, and so forth. They're like white people that way, if you can imagine. But finding somebody being wrong on the internet is not the same thing as providing evidence for anything - other than the claim that there are people being wrong on the internet, and we kinda knew that. Most of us, anyway.

And since I've already agreed that my usage aligned, formally, with a plurality,

What makes that repetition of the silly special is its arrival immediately after you posted the dictionary definitions, all of which contradict your simple illiteracy, and represent exactly the "formally" you claim to "align" with. Look: You claimed a "majority" of blacks were liberal. Using your stats, an accurate claim would be that a majority of blacks were not liberal. Another accurate claim would be that only a minority of blacks were liberal. Do you see the problem?

See the Pew Research data above. 15% of whites versus 31% of blacks on food stamps. 22% of Democrats versus only 10% of Republicans. Obviously self-reported conservatives do differ, since some are black and Democrat, exceeding the average among all conservatives, and others are white and Republican, both below the average for self-reported conservatives.

Why are you posting data on food stamps?
(Fun fact: government aid to farms and agribusinesses, not counting tax breaks, almost all them owned and run by white people, is more than double food stamp aid to black people - 25 billion to about 12 billion, by my arithmetic ( and since nobody else here is doing any arithmetic - - - - ) )

 

[Syne]

Your views were and are as posted here. They gave us Trump, and before him W, and along with those two the rest of the Republican Party - whether you favored such consequences or not, you and your kind are accountable for them.

Bigotry on display.

Show me the evidence of these four million black conservative BLM supporters then.

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/the-fall-of-trumpcare.159121/page-9#post-3457740

Apparently you forgot which thread you were posting to.

Why are blacks that disagree with you "wingnuts"? Can you really not comprehend that some blacks can think as independent individuals?

The question was how you came to describe them as "spokesmen".
Nobody ever doubted the existence of videos of "independent" black thinking - even flat out crazy, paranoid, conspiracy-befuddled, and so forth. They're like white people that way, if you can imagine. But finding somebody being wrong on the internet is not the same thing as providing evidence for anything - other than the claim that there are people being wrong on the internet, and we kinda knew that. Most of us, anyway.

You're either lying or your memory has failed you. Go look. I never called those blacks "spokesmen"....I said, "as if liberal whites are somehow their only spokesmen". So this is a transparent straw man, at best.
Again, if they disagree with you, they don't count? Why not. It's what the Democrats have been telling them for decades.

What makes that repetition of the silly special is its arrival immediately after you posted the dictionary definitions, all of which contradict your simple illiteracy, and represent exactly the "formally" you claim to "align" with. Look: You claimed a "majority" of blacks were liberal. Using your stats, an accurate claim would be that a majority of blacks were not liberal. Another accurate claim would be that only a minority of blacks were liberal. Do you see the problem?

Wow, you really have a problem. You seem in denial that a plurality of blacks are liberal.

Why are you posting data on food stamps?

(Fun fact: government aid to farms and agribusinesses, not counting tax breaks, almost all them owned and run by white people, is more than double food stamp aid to black people - 25 billion to about 12 billion, by my arithmetic ( and since nobody else here is doing any arithmetic - - - - ) )

Okay, the math is rough...but let’s take a look at what splitting the farm bill into an ag subsidy title and a food stamps title might actually mean.

The House farm bill shot down in June would have cost $939 billion over ten years. For easy math, let’s round up to $1 trillion, or about $100 billion annually.

Of that, 80 percent — $80 billion — goes for food stamps. The rest, broadly, goes for ag help, about $20 billion a year.

In 2013, 47.6 million people received food stamps. That means recipients get about $1,680 in benefits, on average, each year.

There are roughly 3.1 million farmers who split the remaining $20 billion in the farm bill. That works out to $6,451 per farmer.

So overall spending on food stamps is much higher than farm subsidies. But on a per-person basis, farmers come out ahead.
- http://www.kansascity.com/news/loca...costs-more-Food-stamps-or-farm-subsidies.html

The “farm bill” is a misleading title for this recurring legislation. It is really a food stamp bill that also includes agriculture subsidies. The vast majority of spending—about 80 percent in the 2008 bill—is dedicated to food stamps[1] and other nutrition programs.
- http://www.heritage.org/agriculture...10-things-you-should-know-about-the-farm-bill​

You were saying?
Oh right, just more iceaura "facts".

 

[iceaura]

Apparently you forgot which thread you were posting to

I was responding directly to your post on that topic in that thread, quoted. Where else should I have responded to your posting in that thread?

Wow, you really have a problem. You seem in denial that a plurality of blacks are liberal.

Quoted for illustration of rightwing mentality - trivial and dishonest trolling (dishonest by the deliberate substitution of "plurality" for the troll's illiterately misused term "majority")

You're either lying or your memory has failed you. Go look. I never called those blacks "spokesmen"....I said, "as if liberal whites are somehow their only spokesmen".

Quoted for lulz.

You were saying?

I was comparing the money handed out to white "farmers" (a lot of them wear ties to work) in one - just one - form of government aid - about 25 billion in a recent year,

with the "money" (unlike the largesse given to wealthy white farmers, it's not cash but scrip) handed out to black people as food stamps - about 12 billion in that same year.

You posted food stamps as your big example of government aid going to black people. I pointed out that twice as much money was being handed out as government aid to white people in the very government aid bill you chose - and it was cash, not scrip.

So overall spending on food stamps is much higher than farm subsidies. But on a per-person basis, farmers come out ahead.

Why did you emphasize the food stamps given to black people, earlier, and then roll them into the entire food stamp program mostly for white people, later?

Why didn't you use the actual food stamp and agricultural subsidy bills passed and in force during the time of your earlier statistics on disproportionately black recipients?

 

[birch]

to be resentful about food in developed countries is small-minded. the gov't can just do away with food stamps or can modify what types of food can be purchased. there is so much food wasted and thrown out. it can all be donated to food banks where people can access needed food. that's the near or expired food that will be thrown out anyways. that doesn't even account for the masses of superficially unattractive produce that does not make it to market. most of the food in all grocery stores is wasted besides restaurants. the amount that is wasted vs purchased is astronomical.

 

[H.sapiens]

Are liberals caring and trusting towards other people because they haven't formed good bonds with other people?

Reflecting back on my own life, I was more liberal when I felt I needed other people. So I would, in my view have a naive view of people and the world because I needed people and world.

However, as I formed better personally relationships, I feel it gave me the freedom to view others and the world more accurately and thus I became more right wing.

Can people relate to this?

There have been some brain scan studies done and it turns out that the right wingers are fear based (amygdala controlled) while the lefties tend toward reason based (pre-frontal activity). You're asking what could be an interesting study ... "does the center of control in the brain shirt with age?"

 

[Bowser]

Are liberals caring and trusting towards other people because they haven't formed good bonds with other people?

Reflecting back on my own life, I was more liberal when I felt I needed other people. So I would, in my view have a naive view of people and the world because I needed people and world.

However, as I formed better personally relationships, I feel it gave me the freedom to view others and the world more accurately and thus I became more right wing.

Can people relate to this?

I think conservatives are more independent than Liberals and less likely to fall into group-think.
Liberals are more social than conservatives in that they need confirmation of their own value.

 

[Kittamaru]

I think conservatives are more independent than Liberals and less likely to fall into group-think.
Liberals are more social than conservatives in that they need confirmation of their own value.

More accurately would be Liberals aren't afraid of progress and change, whereas Conservatives seem to want to cling to the "old ways" regardless of the evidence that the up and coming ideas are better.

 

[joepistole]

I think conservatives are more independent than Liberals and less likely to fall into group-think.
Liberals are more social than conservatives in that they need confirmation of their own value.

Actually, that's not what the science says. The science says so called "conservatives" are motivated by base instincts, and base instincts are far from "independent". Because so called "conservatives" are controlled by base instincts, it makes them very vulnerable to manipulation. They move in herds similar to a heard of buffaloes. They are easily controlled and manipulated. They can believe anything including the notion that they are "independent" when in fact they are anything but independent. And you can see it in internet forums or in any conversation with a "conservative". They cannot back up their arguments with real facts and real data or reason.

But of course we know "conservatives" don't like science, because science isn't consistent with their base instincts. Whereas, these so called "liberals", i.e. anyone who isn't a"conservative" make decisions based not on base instinct but with knowledge and aforethought. That's the difference between "conservatives" and "liberals". One lives in a world of delusion and fear and one lives in a world of knowledge and wisdom.

 

[iceaura]

I think conservatives are more independent than Liberals and less likely to fall into group-think.

That's what they all say. A large chorus of people all saying that together.

For example: Sixty million people who switch from being obsessed with Federal budget deficits to not caring about deficits to being obsessed with deficits to not caring about deficits, within one month windows, every couple of years, completely in synchrony, are all independent thinkers.

Sixty million people who all started using the term "death tax", pretty much in the same year, and have ever since - independent thinkers.

Sixty million people who switched from calling an American Heritage Institute written and Republican Party endorsed health care setup a "free market" alternative, to calling it "socialism" and "government takeover of health care", in synchrony - independent thinkers.

And so forth.

It's like listening to a school of minnows and hearing them talk about what independent thinkers they all are.

 

[Bowser]

It's like listening to a school of minnows and hearing them talk about what independent thinkers they all are.

Those are some large numbers, indeed.

 

[Bowser]

But of course we know "conservatives" don't like science, because science isn't consistent with their base instincts. Whereas, these so called "liberals", i.e. anyone who isn't a"conservative" make decisions based not on base instinct but with knowledge and aforethought. That's the difference between "conservatives" and "liberals". One lives in a world of delusion and fear and one lives in a world of knowledge and wisdom.

That hasn't been my experience, Joe. The conservative is a more practical creature. While the liberal is busy trying to figure out its gender, the conservative is raising a family and working to better his life.

 

[Bowser]

More accurately would be Liberals aren't afraid of progress and change, whereas Conservatives seem to want to cling to the "old ways" regardless of the evidence that the up and coming ideas are better.

Possible the conservative doesn't view the liberal vision as "progress."

 

[Dr_Toad]

Actually, that's not what the science says. The science says so called "conservatives" are motivated by base instincts, and base instincts are far from "independent". Because so called "conservatives" are controlled by base instincts, it makes them very vulnerable to manipulation. They move in herds similar to a heard of buffaloes. They are easily controlled and manipulated. They can believe anything including the notion that they are "independent" when in fact they are anything but independent. And you can see it in internet forums or in any conversation with a "conservative". They cannot back up their arguments with real facts and real data or reason.

But of course we know "conservatives" don't like science, because science isn't consistent with their base instincts. Whereas, these so called "liberals", i.e. anyone who isn't a"conservative" make decisions based not on base instinct but with knowledge and aforethought. That's the difference between "conservatives" and "liberals". One lives in a world of delusion and fear and one lives in a world of knowledge and wisdom.

That's pretty shallow reasoning. About as deep as the thickness of the mirror you're staring into, like Narcissus.

Not open to reason? You shout like the punk-assed Antifa cowards that won't hear any other garbage but their own. Give yourself a bit pat on the back while you swing a bike lock at someone from behind a wall of "women".

 

[joepistole]

Possible the conservative doesn't view the liberal vision as "progress."

Of course it's possible. It's the norm. The primary motivator for "conservatism" is fear and ignorance. That's why they call it "conservatism".

 

[iceaura]

Possible the conservative doesn't view the liberal vision as "progress."

The Trump voter has no idea what "the liberal vision" is.

Literally: not a clue. Look at this:

That hasn't been my experience, Joe. The conservative is a more practical creature. While the liberal is busy trying to figure out its gender, the conservative is raising a family and working to better his life.

The "conservative" and his precious family is currently a basket case - filling the emergency rooms with opioid overdoses and the police blotters with meth-related crimes, after filling the newspaper public announcements with foreclosure notices and the government with Louise Gohmerts and Scott Walkers and other shit-for-brains.

Which is a step down from the DWI, casino gambling crime, and bankruptcy wave, but actually holding level on the W&Cheney/Newt Gingrich government. Plateau, of a kind, in government. Maybe anyone more shit-for-brains than the American "conservative's" 1980+ vote getters is institutionalized.

And so forth.

The American "conservatives" aren't ok. Maybe they used to be, forty or fifty years ago, despite the racial ugly and the mean streak, but they've been lying to themselves way too much for way too long now, and they are lost - they couldn't find their way back with both hands and a map.

The liberal vision, btw - you wanted a clue? It used to be called the United States of America - all that Constitutional verbiage and fine talk about liberty and justice and pursuit of happiness used to be an actual vision for a real and functioning nation.