The Best Intrest of Your Country

[hypewaders]

Buffalo Roam: "you still haven't shown real world examples of were our support for Dictators has hurt us in real terms"

I have:
Saddam Hussein
Mohammed Reza Pahlavi
Fulgencio Batista
Anastasio Somoza Garcia & Somosa Dynasty
Efraín Ríos Montt
Agusto Pinochet
Manuel Noriega
Suharto
Ferdinand Marcos

Why have you been avoiding discussing them?

"Soviet Union and China to foster wars of Liberation throughout the African Continent, and make us dependent on them for our strategic metals"

We're dependent on the USSR and China for African metals? Give me a break.

"wars of aggression in Angola, Southwest Africa, Rhodesia, and Mozambique..."

We're supposed to feel left out or something?

"it cut us off from the strategic materials that are needed for our economy"

Are you sure?

"we don't need a friendly government when our security needs are at stake do we?"

We don't need to prop up dictators.

"We can always find platinum, manganese, vanadium, chromium, cobalt, just laying around when we need them"

That's right. We don't need to prop up dictators to get these.

"99% of our planets known crustal reserves of the platinum metals are located in southern Africa or in the Soviet Union.

Well, apartheid's gone in one, and, well, the other one is gone. Are you really this behind on current events? Or is it just your cut-and-paste "opinion" that's lagging?

"When we make steel"

Have you emigrated to Asia, Baron? 祝贺／恭喜！

That was a most amusing tangent, but if you're serious let's talk about what the results have been from US sponsorship of dictators.

timmbuktwo: Hypes, quick quote; " the evil you know is better than the one you don't ".

Oh. That must be why Bush is funding (through the Saudi dictatorship) al-Qaeda affiliates in Iraq. Brilliant.

 

[timmbuktwo]

Hypes, why do you think the states "prop " up dicatators then?

 

[hypewaders]

I think it has stemmed mostly from Presidential malpractice on the part of a succession of leaders, involving impatience, short-sightedness, hubris, ignorance, greed, corruption, cynicism, disdain for democratic ideals, and disdain for the American public's intelligence and awareness.

 

[timmbuktwo]

Okay, but honestly why? From your answer it seems like at the end of the day it's for the US citizens's best interest, no?

 

[hypewaders]

It ends up not being in anyone's best interest. There is a reason no serious world leaders can behave like Louis XIV today. It just doesn't work any more. Similarly, there is a reason why American Presidents cannot behave as the rulers of empires past, setting up colonial maharajas, however disguised. The world sees through it, and won't stand for it any more. Unfortunately, these developments have not prevented present leadership from trying anyway.

The proof of this change is everywhere, but in the USA we're still electing ignorant people to power and ceding to them the democratic authority of oversight that our Founders warned us never to relinquish. They knew the world was going to change, and that we (the people) had better pay very close attention, lest some political dinosaur be turned loose to run the USA like an empire, long past its expiration date. The old rules just don't apply any more -especially the ones about proxy dictators- because the ages of empire are well behind us now. A consistent clue as been the way our dictator lapdogs over the last 50 years or so have consistently turned and bitten us very hard in the crotch. Yet our leaders still act surprised, and move on to the next pooch, the cutest little pitbull for sale right over there, and he's got an oilfield too. How sweet. Are the American people consulted in these anti-democratic decisions? Of course not! They're anti-democratic!

So are we (the people) going to do anything about it? That depends if we (in sufficient numbers) believe in America, and effect a change by becoming politically involved. I think that's happening now. Slowly at first, but it's happening. We're getting smarter. Maybe just smart enough to turn things around just before our world stature and economy both take a big steaming dump right in the middle of our big comfy bed.

 

[timmbuktwo]

True, but maybe the american pres's can't behave like those of the past because of too much public / opposing political inervention and opinion.

Listen ,I'm all for people having a vote and speech and all that , but I hate it when no body votes at the election then somehow everyone has a opinion about some current critical issue.

The problem seems like some things really should not be part of a "public" discussion, you vote the leaders in, let them do what they do best, which should be in their respective "elected" positions. The joe-shmo on the street , really, should not have much sway in how the country is run. That we can find proof and "links" in many past societies.

 

[hypewaders]

"some things really should not be part of a "public" discussion"

Like what?

"you vote the leaders in, let them do what they do best"

Which is?

"The joe-shmo on the street , really, should not have much sway in how the country is run."

So you want to elect a Monarch for short-term lease. You're a stunted democrat. Actually no- you don't qualify as a person believing in democracy.

"That we can find proof and "links" in many past societies."

Show me your proof, monarchist.

 

[timmbuktwo]

Hypes ;

1) Any affairs of military and/or security

2) Run the country which you vote them in to do

3) Democrat ? Me??
b) A Monarch would the states much better now than this next election . Just wait untill the americans vote a women or african-american (black) in.

4) Do you remember how the greeks ended?

 

[hypewaders]

"affairs of military and/or security [should not be part of a "public" discussion]"

Fascist.

"you vote the leaders in, let them do what they do best [which is] run the country"

You obviously see no value in government of, by, and for the people. Blind fascist.

"A Monarch would [rule] the states much better now than this next election . Just wait untill the americans vote a women or african-american (black) in."

Bigot. Strike One.

"Do you remember how the greeks ended?"

They haven't ended yet, but they have democracy, a laid-back attitude, great food, beautiful islands... what are you getting at?

 

[Neildo]

Okay, but honestly why? From your answer it seems like at the end of the day it's for the US citizens's best interest, no?

Nope, it's in the interests of the corporations that make money from the actions, they just hope it doesn't jeopardize the citizens of the U.S., but that's an afterthought; a risk they're willing to take.

- N

 

[The Devil Inside]

Listen ,I'm all for people having a vote and speech and all that ,

The joe-shmo on the street , really, should not have much sway in how the country is run. That we can find proof and "links" in many past societies.

what exactly are you trying to say?
you favor joe schmo being able to have a say, or not?
when you can formulate a stance, then we will take you seriously.
you seem to be just blustering.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

hypewaders

I have:
Saddam Hussein
Mohammed Reza Pahlavi
Fulgencio Batista
Anastasio Somoza Garcia & Somosa Dynasty
Efraín Ríos Montt
Agusto Pinochet
Manuel Noriega
Suharto
Ferdinand Marcos

Why have you been avoiding discussing them?

Because nothing you have shown make a case that at the time it wasn't in our best interest, and anything that you state is from a Wednesday Morning Quarter Back position.

"We can always find platinum, manganese, vanadium, chromium, cobalt, just laying around when we need them"

That's right. We don't need to prop up dictators to get these.

And can you tell us were we can just pick these strategic metals up? 95% plus of these materials are in Russia, still not a friendly source, that has its own best interest in mind not ours, and The South African Continent, in Angola, Zaire, Southwest Africa, Rhodesia, and Mozambique, all Marxist governments under dictatorships, and South Africa, all not friendly to our interest, yes were are now getting these stragic metals from these countries, and in doing so supporting Dictators who oppress their people, and it is still in the best interest of our country to do so.

"Soviet Union and China to foster wars of Liberation throughout the African Continent, and make us dependent on them for our strategic metals"

We're dependent on the USSR and China for African metals? Give me a break.

Well again tell me were we can get these metals from our own sources in the amounts that will fill our military needs, let alone our industrial need to keep the economy and business working? 95% of these materials are concentrated in Russia and the south of the African Continent.

"We can always find platinum, manganese, vanadium, chromium, cobalt, just laying around when we need them"

That's right. We don't need to prop up dictators to get these.

But we are, we buy these materials from Angola, Zaire, Southwest Africa, Rhodesia, and Mozambique, which are all Marxist dictatorships, and South Africa, and none of them are secure sources of these strategic materials, and we do so because it is still in the best interest of the country to do so.

"99% of our planets known crustal reserves of the platinum metals are located in southern Africa or in the Soviet Union.

Well, apartheid's gone in one, and, well, the other one is gone. Are you really this behind on current events? Or is it just your cut-and-paste "opinion" that's lagging?

No, but I wonder were you are in current events, none of the countries that these materials are dependable sources for our long term needs, and the only one that still hasn't turned into a dictatorship is South Africa, and they are not a friendly ally, even though Congress and Jimmy Carter made it the U.S. policy to do a divesture of South Africa and isolate them in the world economy, and help Nelson Mandela come to power.

 

[hypewaders]

Buffalo Roam: "Because nothing you have shown make a case that at the time it wasn't in our best interest"

Did you no that heroin can make you feel really good at the time you take it? I know that you understand that this doesn't heroine is good for you. Similarly, you can't claim that Saddam Hussein gassed Iranians, so the mess he lured us into isn't to be associated with his long relationship with Washington. I have provided a short, somewhat random list of the many dictators the United States has supported. I have offered you the option to discuss in detail how the careers of favored dictators has furthered or hindered the interests of the USA. Maybe you would like to add your favorite dictator to the list.

Shall we take it from the top?

Great. This is why discussions are such a pleasure with you, BR. We can stay on topic without chickenshit evasiveness, until we get down to the facts.

Beginning with the career of Saddam Hussein: I say he's benn bad for American interests. What about you? Would you to review Saddam's impact on American interests, or shall we move on to our next dictator buddy?

"can you tell us were we can just pick these strategic metals up?"

Youpop on over to the free market- That is, the booming market among free countries for exotic metals, mined and recycled. And there's more sources begging to be exploited, like recycling our outdated, overproduced cold-war doomsday-devices. All kinds of multi-metallic goodness serving no purpose in the present deteriorating, hazardous, and neglected configurations. You claim that we need to build up African dictators to get platinum, manganese, vanadium, chromium, and cobalt. I think this is another tangential distraction from my challenge to the underlying premise of your thread. But if you can name one specific metal, and show why it can only be gotten from specific dictator, then I'll explore that tangent with you.

"I wonder were you are in current events, none of the countries that [possess] these [raw] materials are dependable sources for our long term needs"

I'm not sure of the veracity or pertinence of that. Can we get back to the careers of American-sponsored dictators that you consider to have been beneficial to the USA? Has Saddam been good for America, BR?

 

[Baron Max]

OK. The career of Saddam Hussein: Bad for American interests.

Not at first. And since no one can see into the future, to see what is actually going to happen, then....?

Can we get back to the careers of American-sponsored dictators that you consider to have been beneficial to the USA?

At the time, every one that we supported was considered to be in the best interests of the USA.

Hype, you're just playing armchair quarterback again. With past histories to reveiw carefully, you can show all kinds of mistakes by most everyone on the planet. Armchair quarterbacking is really only for people who like to claim that they know more than others ...AND... they're the kind of people who like to complain a lot.

Baron Max

 

[hypewaders]

"With past histories to reveiw carefully, you can show all kinds of mistakes"

That's right. And like sticking one's hand on a hot stove, one can learn from past experience. After enough repetition, most of us learn that pain and injury will consistently result from putting our skin in contact with something very hot. Our national experience partnering with dictators has also been consistently hurtful. You're obviously in some denial about that, so let's take it one "ouch" at a time:

Has Saddam been good for America, BR?

 

[Buffalo Roam]

hypewaders, Saddam Hussein was useful between 1980 and 1988, the Iran Iraq war, it tied down the Iranians and their revolutionary fervor, which is back on the rise, and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, has visions of a Persian Empire, and we will find out if the liberals have the answers to the rest of the question, and that is how to keep the Xerxes, in the bottle, and not have the middle east go up in flames, if they succeed in forcing a pull out the Persians will make their move, and Israel will move and with all of the movements, shit is going to happen, and the eastern sky will have a blue glow.

"can you tell us were we can just pick these strategic metals up?"

Youpop on over to the free market- That is, the booming market among free countries for exotic metals, mined and recycled. And there's more sources begging to be exploited, like recycling our outdated, overproduced cold-war doomsday-devices. All kinds of multi-metallic goodness serving no purpose in the present deteriorating, hazardous, and neglected configurations. You claim that we need to build up African dictators to get platinum, manganese, vanadium, chromium, and cobalt. I think this is another tangential distraction from my challenge to the underlying premise of your thread. But if you can name one specific metal, and show why it can only be gotten from specific dictator, then I'll explore that tangent with you

.

We are recycling these metals, but the demand is growing faster than the amounts of reclaimed materials, and there is the fact that 98% of these metals come out of Russia or the South African Continent, there are no other large scale mining operations anywhere else in the world, that can supply the needs of the industrialized world, and we have to buy what we need from the Countries that have the resources, and that is countries run by dictators in the South of the African Continent, so we still end up supporting dictatorships, only now instead of friendly dictatorships we have unstable dictatorships, that are not friendly to our interest, and have marxist governments in place, and are supported by Russia and China, Cuba, and North Korea, and none of those countries are inclined to be overly concerned with our best interest, would they? But it sure is in their best interest to support dictators who are not friendly to the U.S.

 

[Baron Max]

That's right. And like sticking one's hand on a hot stove, one can learn from past experience.

Do you feel the same way about, for example, "love" or friendship? If one has been hurt a few times, then they should opt out of human interaction?

And is that the way you view international politics and diplomacy, Hype?

Our national experience partnering with dictators has also been consistently hurtful.

I don't see how you can say that with such conviction, Hype. I'm sure that there have been many dictatorships that have lasted and been beneficial for both parties for years, decades even. Yet for all of that, you take the worst and make judgements about "what should have been".

You're an armchair quarterback, Hype, plain and simple. Why is it so hard for you to see that?

Baron Max

 

[hypewaders]

"Do you feel the same way about, for example, "love" or friendship? If one has been hurt a few times, then they should opt out of human interaction?"

That's a great example, [enc]Baron Max[/enc]. I'm glad you're joining in. Some people fall prey to serial bad relationships. They need to take stock of the pattern, and break it. This can apply not only to human, but also inter-national relationships, when it becomes obviously beneficial to stop dating assholes.

"And is that the way you view international politics and diplomacy, Hype?"

Dictators are hurtful partners for the USA: Not only do they consistently bite us, but they can incriminate us too, which leaves us open to further international injuries, undermining our national interests.

"I don't see how you can say that with such conviction, Hype."

Let's look at the careers of American-sponsored dictators together. Has Saddam been good for America, Baron?

"I'm sure that there have been many dictatorships that have lasted and been beneficial for both parties for years, decades even."

Time is the test of a worthy relationship.

"Yet for all of that, you take the worst and make judgements about "what should have been".

That's called learning from hard experience. Next comes applying that learning toward a better future.

"You're an armchair quarterback, Hype, plain and simple. Why is it so hard for you to see that?"

That's just an [enc]Ad hominem[/enc], Baron. If armchair-quarterbacks really captivate you so, why not start a thread on the subject in some psycho-babble corner of this board? We're discussing the best interests of our country here.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

hypewaders

We're discussing the best interests of our country here.

Yes we are, not the cristyle ball seeing into the future, that you seem to do, can you predict the future events, like what is going to happen if we pull out of Iraq? tell us what is going to happen, you have the experience, or so you imply, what does the future hold for the U.S. and the Middle East, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Syria, the world? will our pull out end the terrorist jhade, of the Radical Moslems? will peace and brotherhood break out across the world and we all end up singing cumbia? Yes of swindle swami, please prognosticate for use humble ill informed, the best interest of the country.

 

[hypewaders]

[enc]Buffalo roam[/enc]"Saddam Hussein was useful between 1980 and 1988, the Iran Iraq war, it tied down the Iranians and their revolutionary fervor"

Seems like it consolidated theocratic power to me. What else was good about it? Did empowering the Ayatollahs compensate for the damages to American interests due to Saddam's crimes?

"Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, has visions of a Persian Empire"

Please substantiate.

"we will find out if the liberals have the answers to the rest of the question"

OK I'll give it a try:

"how to keep the Xerxes, in the bottle"

Well, the Greeks kicked his ass in less than 3 years. We know one thing for sure: Iran's neighbors can kick invader ass. Persia's already bottled, at a fine vintage sure to improve with moderate conditions.

"...and not have the middle east go up in flames"

Turn down the heat.

"if [pussy liberals] succeed in forcing a pull out the Persians will make their move"

They're already making it. Arabs won't take a shine to Persian overlords, any more than they have to Anglo ones over the last century.

"Israel will move and with all of the movements, shit is going to happen"

Why not let other countries make the bad moves for a while.

"the eastern sky will have a blue glow."

That's what some said the US and Soviets would do, but it was just too stupid a scenario to try. The same deterrent is now operative in the Mideast. Ever since the USA started the Mideast nuclear race by arming up Israel, the point has been moot, and a matter of time.

"demand is growing faster than the amounts of reclaimed materials, and there is the fact that 98% of these metals come out of Russia or the South African Continent, there are no other large scale mining operations anywhere else in the world, that can supply the needs of the industrialized world, and we have to buy what we need from the Countries that have the resources, and that is countries run by dictators"

That's a complicated claim you're making. Why don't you simplify it: Specify a metal we can only get from a dictator.

"none of those countries are inclined to be overly concerned with our best interest, would they? But it sure is in their best interest to support dictators who are not friendly to the U.S."

So you want me to believe that it's like a dictator-race we must escalate? Must the US have the greatest arsenal of unstable dictators in order to maintain control? Give me a fucking break.