The Best Intrest of Your Country

hypewaders

Very few countries have the means -much less the inclination- to support dictators as the USA has (installing and arming them up). Considering the title of this thread, your question does include the clear (but clearly mistaken) assertion that American association with dictators can be a positive. If you demand this premise be part of any acceptable answer, then you're just pushing a false dilemma. Stamp your feet all you like, I won't answer it in the way you've framed it because that would require signing onto your nasty little lie.

It seems that you are the one stamping you feet, holding your breath, and turning blue, you still haven't provided a country that doesn't practice Geo-Politics with the best interest of their country first last and always, be it with Dictators,Socialist, Nazis or Communist, and yes it can be positive in the interest of our country, and that positive interest can be Strategic, Tactical, or Economic, it may be short term or long term, if it affects any of these, it can be beneficial for the Government to deal with a Dictator, and all countries have done so, in their best interest, and will continue to do so in the future, History abounds with examples.
 
You are circularly trying to justify American support for dictatorship with manichean and machiavellian twisting of logic, childish justification (everybody's doing it) false premise, and false dilemma.

There is little to be gained from black-and-white comparisons with other countries. In the present context, the United States has unfortunately been the leading supporter of dictators: That's not to say no other country has diplomacy and trade with dictators, but that no other nation props them up like the "Land of the Free".

We don't have to look beyond our own nation and collective conscience to find our moral compass again. Consider Massachusetts' courageous stand on this issue. They have been rebuffed, but the Constitutional battle over support for dictatorship is not over.

I'm sure that dictators have breathed the same air as the citizens of Massachusetts. I'm sure that if you dig, you can find some examples of dictators profiting from Mass. business relationships. But if more Americans would stand up like the people of Massachusetts did (and will again) then the USA's future will be considerably brighter. When we lose the dictators, we'll lose the blowback. First, Americans must overcome the vicious lie you are promoting, that dictatorship-building is good for us (or anyone). Then the USA can get back to leading by example, and raising each other higher.
 
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hypewaders,

You are circularly trying to justify American support for dictatorship with manichean and machiavellian twisting of logic, childish justification (everybody's doing it) false premise, and false dilemma.

No hype I justify nothing, I am just stating the facts of Geo-Political world politics, which is neither good or bad, it is exactly what it is the Best interest of the Country at the time and in accordance with the situation, at the time it take place, and over time situations change, facts change. Economic, Strategic, Tactical, on a world scale, these are the best interests of the country for survival of the Country, any Country all Countries.

ps: you still haven't given a example of a country that operates in the Utopian way that you demand and dream of, and there are many examples of countries that no longer exist because they failed to operate in accordance with this principle of Geo-Politics
 
"you still haven't given a example of a country that operates in the Utopian way that you demand and dream of"

I don't need to. This is just another of your straw men, because I have not indicated any utopia. My primary disagreement is with your completely unsupported assertion that it benefits the USA to prop up dictators. In a previous post, I gave you multiple examples of dictatorial regimes that have relied upon the support of the United States. There is a very high correlation of blowback with these regimes that has and is negatively impacting the best interest of the USA in terms of our economy, our security, and our collective integrity.

"there are many examples of countries that no longer exist because they failed to operate in accordance with this principle of Geo-Politics"

Let's have them then.
 
hypewaders,

I don't need to.

So with that childish three year old's logic you win the debate because you don't need to? yes hype stomp on the floor, scream I don't need to!, hold your breath till your blue, and you win the debate,

I gave you multiple examples of dictatorial regimes that have relied upon the support of the United States. There is a very high correlation of blowback with these regimes that has and is negatively impacting the best interest of the USA in terms of our economy, our security, and our collective integrity.

In your opinion, and what would the world look like if we hadn't? You are Monday morning quarterbacking, and not addressing the Point of the Thread, the Best Interest of Your Country, and I can give you a vary good example of this, when we backed Stalin in WWII against Germany, though many would say we backed the wrong Dictator, In a life for life evaluation the world would have been better off if we had backed Germany and Hitler against Russia, a prime example of either way being the best interest of the country.

Me
"there are many examples of countries that no longer exist because they failed to operate in accordance with this principle of Geo-Politics"

hypewaders,
Let's have them then.

Iraq, Germany, Imperial Japan, Manchuco, Imperial Rome, Carthage, any country or government that ceased to exist in history, they failed to do what was in the best interest of their country, and they all paid the price, the destruction of their country and government.
 
"childish three year old's logic"

Your question includes the false premise that consorting with dictators is beneficial to the USA. I have been patiently challenging that assertion, while you have persisted in evasiveness. I'm not interested in answering a question that imposes an unfounded, false pre-condition on the answerer. Ask a straight question and I will answer:

"what would the world look like if we hadn't [propped up dictators]?"

There would have been millions fewer victims of brutal dictatorships. The United States would be far more respected throughout the world. There would be significantly less provocation for terrorism against the USA. There would be more international cooperation and respect for our legitimate initiatives. As a result the United States would enjoy much greater security, both physically and economically.

"You are Monday morning quarterbacking, and not addressing the Point of the Thread, the Best Interest of Your Country"

Not true. Then, now, and in future, dictatorship is incompatible with democracy. Remembering our ideals of government of, by and for the people, and protecting that foundation with public criticism and popular reform is most definitely in the best interests of the USA.

"there are many examples of countries that no longer exist because they failed to operate in accordance with this principle of Geo-Politics...do what was in the best interest of their country... Iraq, Germany, Imperial Japan, Manchuco, Imperial Rome, Carthage... "

You're hiding again- using a sweeping generalization in a diversionary response to the context of my request for substantiation of your claim. Instead of examples of countries that no longer exist because they would not support dictatorship, you have given a much more general example group of fallen governments. Instead of confronting the incompatibility of democracy with dictatorship in an integrating world, you are offering multiple distracting repetitions of an entirely separate premise, so self-evident that there can be no argument.

Yes, nations must look out for their own best interests. We can obviously agree on that generality. But you declare the promotion of dictatorship as part of the USA's self interest. I challenge that assumption because I know it to be false: Promoting dictatorship corrupts our ideals of democracy, our reputation, our authority, and our security.

US support for dictatorships has caused us great harm. I have provided examples, and offered to examine those examples with you in detail. For too many posts, you've only been running and hiding from an open challenge to the lie you have been repeating here, that anything goes, and that American support for dictatorship is a beneficial thing. In fact, you've been hiding from my challenge since post # 11 in this thread:

Buffalo Roam: "at certain time in our countries history the U.S. has supported dictators of unsavory character... when it has served the best interest of that country"

hypewaders: Most often it has not. The cumulative and long-term effects of US collaboration with dictators have been overwhelmingly negative, and certainly not in US national interests.



This has gone on long enough. Either summon the courage to come out of the scraggly argumentative bushes you're hiding in, or drop it.
 
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hypewaders

Your question includes the false premise that consorting with dictators is beneficial to the USA. I have been patiently challenging that assertion, while you have persisted in evasiveness. I'm not interested in answering a question that imposes an unfounded, false pre-condition on the answerer. Ask a straight question and I will answer:

And how do you contend this is a False Premises? Is this not the fact of World Politics as practiced in history up to the present day?, And I have asked a straight question, and far from being evasive I have stuck with the theme of the Thread the Best Interest of the Country, Prove that it isn't in the best interest of the country, to at times make deals with Dictators for Economic, Tactical and Strategic, reasons, it has seemed to worked, The country still exist on the world stage, it has not fallen and it wields tremendous political and military might, and is a force to be reckoned with on the world stage, your premises that to deal with dictator is not in the best interest of the country is the False premises, as you have no real world examples were this is the sole and ultimate truth, to foreign policy, We deal with democracies, and dictators, and all forms of governments in between, in the best interest of the country, and will in the best interest of the country have to continue to do so.

This has gone on long enough. Either summon the courage to come out of the scraggly argumentative bushes you're hiding in, or drop it.

Yes it has gone far enough, But it isn't me that has to provides refutation of the question of : The Best Interest of Your Country, it is you and you have not, You have not shown a country that doesn't operate in this fashion on the Geo- Political stage, it is incumbent on you to prove that your way is the way thing should and are being done, I was the one who posed the question of the Best Interest of Your Country, and the fact that all countries operate in said manner, even the U.N. so provide proof that any country does not support dictators when it is in their best interest to do so for economic, tactical, and strategic reasons, or admit that the reality of survival and necessity triumphs in the Geo-Political World
 
The Devil Inside

unfortunately, the thread is about the best "interest" of the country.

Yes, your can read but can you comprehend, no one has shown that the best interests of the country for Economic, Tactical and Strategic interest, is not served in dealing with dictators, no one has shown that there is a country in the world that doesn't practice Geo-Politics in this manner.

All that I have seen posted is a utopian vision of how politics on a world level should be practiced, not as it is practiced in the real world, and it is in the real world were it counts, even the U.N. deals with Dictators for their own best self interests, so please show me a country in the real world that practices the Best Interest of their country by not dealing with dictators, and less than savory types of governments when it serves their interest?
 
Buffalo Roam: "please show me a country in the real world that practices the Best Interest of their country by not dealing with dictators, and less than savory types of governments when it serves their interest?"

Each and every country you can name fits that bill.

That question means nothing. You're desperately avoiding touching the subject of the consistent blowback that follows whenever the USA has propped up dictators. It's as if you sense that the track record of the USA's dictator buddies completely demolishes your premise. There's a glimmer of hope in that: You may be on the cusp of an important realization, BR.
 
hypewaders, and you have failed to show that the supposed blow back accomplishes anything, there are countries who no matter what we do or how we deal with something will still condemn the U.S. and you still haven't shown that it wasn't in the best interest of the country to do so, at the time.

hypewaders

That question means nothing. You're desperately avoiding touching the subject of the consistent blowback that follows whenever the USA has propped up dictators.

If anyone is desperate it is you, you desperately avoid the recognition that, this is how political power on the world stage is conducted, if and when all dictators are removed from the world stage then you may have a point, but you ignore the reality, that all dictatorships are not fostered by the United States, they are fathered by the Chinese, Russians, Indians, they spring up on their own, and even spring from democratic countries that have the wrong people be elected into their highest offices, so again tell me how we are to deal with the World Geo-Political reality? in the best interest of our country?
 
"so again tell me how we are to deal with the World Geo-Political reality? in the best interest of our country?"

Cease and desist from dictatorship-building.

"all dictatorships are not fostered by the United States, they are fathered by the Chinese, Russians, Indians, they spring up on their own"

Then leave others to suffer the blowback. There's no justification for bad policy in the fact that others conduct it.
 
hypewaders

Again proof that this is bad policy, other than your foaming at the mouth anti U.S. tirade, tell me exactly what blow back?
 
hypewaders, again your assessment and opinion, on the utopian, not the facts in daily global politics, the biggest hits that we ever took was when we practiced you kind of politics at the end of the Vietnam War, we pulled out and left a ally to fend for its self, and that ruined our standing more than any thing else, ever since then the terrorist of the world have believed that we will not stand and fight, and if you cause enough casualties that the U.S. will cut and run, they brag about this, and they know the left in this country, and that they will cut and run, and in doing so it weakens our standing with our allies, it shows that our word cannot be trusted to fulfill our commitments to any treaty we sign, as soon as we loose a few people we will cut and run, that is what your type of politics does.
 
"hypewaders, again your assessment and opinion, on the utopian"

You're still dodging. Let's take a look at the dictatorships the US has propped up, and examine how things turned out for us in each case.

"cut and run... cut and run... cut and run"

That mindless mantra scarcely applies to our discussion. If we don't get into counterproductive entanglements with dictators, there's nothing to cut and run from. Higher principles compel us to cut our ties with dictators, and run our affairs in the furtherance of liberty. Our founders showed us the wisdom of turning away from dictatorship. If General Washington had shamed his troops into believing any tactical retreats would be "cutting and running" the Redcoats would have had his army, and our revolution against dictatorship would have failed at its beginning.

I'm patiently asking you to confront the reality that the USA should not be in the business of propping up dictatorships, because it is clear that such relationships bring us harm. You've been long avoiding the subject with clumsy distractions, leaving me to assume that it's because you have no honest rebuttal.

If you are sincerre, then choose your American-sponsored dictator, and let's see if the relationship did us good. Let's look at several of these dictator ventures, and see if they show a pattern of benefit to the United States. In post 558, I provided you with a list to start from. Let's put your assertion, that supporting dictators can be in the best interest of the USA, to the test. You can either defend your pro-dictatorsip position, or continue hiding from my challenge. I can respect the abandonment of a worthless position, but not your cowardly evasion- there are worse things than cutting and running.
 
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hypewaders


If General Washington had shamed his troops into believing any tactical retreats would be "cutting and running" the Redcoats would have had his army,
and our revolution against dictatorship would have failed at its beginning.

1. First off none of the plans brought forward by the liberals call for a tactical retreat, They call for disengagement, and a pull out from Iraq, A tactical retreat is when you maneuver your forces out of harms way so as to re-engage the enemy from a point superior advantage, what the demorats would do is a full with drawl from the area of battle, and not for the purpose of re-engaging from a point of superior advantage.

2. I'm sure that our British friends would appreciate your description of King George as being a dictator, I believe that form of government is known as a Monarchy? and at that time in their history there was also a Parliament that was involved in the ruling of Great Britain, Far from being a Dictatorship.
 
Hey look: Over there- A tangent! But it's lousy cover for your retreat. It seems that you will always cut and run from an examination of the results of American dictatorship-building. I won't embarrass you further about it, BR.
 
hypewaders

Hey look: Over there- A tangent! But it's lousy cover for your retreat. It seems that you will always cut and run from an examination of the results of American dictatorship-building. I won't embarrass you further about it, BR.

Me be embarrassed? at least know my forms of Government, which it appears that you do not, To call the British Monarchy a Dictatorship? yes hype, who should be embarrassed? not me, and as for tangents your the one who went there.
And now you still haven't shown real world examples of were our support for Dictators has hurt us in real terms, but I can show were when we practiced your Ideals and stopped supporting allies, and left them to fall it did hurt us and for a long time, starting with Vietnam, Cambodia, and south east Asia, millions died for the cut and run that we did there, and it set in motion a lack of trust in our commitment to our treaties with all of our allies, and with the divesture of business and the embargo of South Africa we allowed the biggest dictators in the world, The Soviet Union and China to foster wars of Liberation throughout the African Continent, and make us dependent on them for our strategic metals, which they sold to us at inflated prices, and then use the money to fund their wars of aggression in Angola, Southwest Africa, Rhodesia, and Mozambique, it cut us off from the strategic materials that are needed for our economy and military, not a good position to be in from the best interest of the country, but then from your post you wouldn't agree would you, we don't need a friendly government when our security needs are at stake do we? We can always find platinum, manganese, vanadium, chromium, cobalt, just laying around when we need them, after all, 99% of our planets known crustal reserves of the platinum metals are located in southern Africa or in the Soviet Union. These same areas contain 98% of the world's manganese ore, 97% of the vanadium, and 96% of the chromium. When we make steel, we use manganese from the Republic of South Africa and Gabon, and chromium from South Africa and the USSR. High-performance jet engines are made of alloys containing cobalt from Zaire. A wide range of industrial catalysts and corrosion-resistant coatings are made from platinum-group elements, which also are supplied mainly by South Africa and the USSR. For each of these vitally important resources we are far more dependent on the Soviet Union and South Africa then we are upon OPEC for petroleum. The cobalt market has already undergone one episode of price volatility reminiscent of the heyday of OPEC, and we can scarcely place our trust in the unfailing stability and goodwill of these suppliers. Would the USSR look with favor on an American request for enough titanium to build the B-1?
 
Hey look: Over there- A tangent! But it's lousy cover for your retreat. It seems that you will always cut and run from an examination of the results of American dictatorship-building. I won't embarrass you further about it, BR.

Hypes, quick quote; " the evil you know is better than the one you don't ".
 
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