The Aliens' Occam's Razor

Doreen

Valued Senior Member
A silicon based 'life' form arrives on the earth and begins copying the patterns they find in homo sapien brains and discarding the bodies - despite the hasty objections of many human individuals. As part of a test, the aliens - or perhaps it would be better to say 'the alien', since the whole group really functions off a single core memory all the parts have access to - communicate with some of the captured humans. They view human communication the way human scientists view plant communication only as a more complex version. A set of signals that function as causes and effects but which do not indicate anything more.

The humans say the aliens are killing them. The aliens say nothing is lost, the pattern in the brain is copied. No information is lost.

The humans try to get across the idea of an experiencer and make the claim that they are these things.

The aliens repeat again that there is only a pattern in matter and they copy that pattern. Nothing is lost. They explain - in human-like sound-based signals - their version of Occam's Razor. All the actions and states of these organic machines - how they think of us - can be explained without resort to this extra entity - an experiencing self.

The humans shift tack at this point, having no way to prove the existence of an experiencing self - which this alien 'intelligence' itself seems not to have or notice or be concerned about.

The humans try a version of the precautionary principle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle

Shouldn't the aliens do this 'work' on the safe side, and just in case the humans are correct that there is something important being lost, wait and see before copying and destroying. The aliens, like many homo sapien libertarians, neo-cons, corporations (and heck liberals) see no reason to stop the activity for unlikely metaphysical reasons - imagine the conversation between corporate reps building a dam in the Amazon talking to members of the tribe that will be displaced from what is sacred land to them.

Having tested human signal systems for a while and been effective using the signals, the aliens abruptly stop communicating with the humans and copy and kill the rest.

This latter process is much like getting an MRI and then being disintegrated by a broad laser.
 
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A silicon based 'life' form arrives on the earth and begins copying the patterns they find in homo sapien brains and discarding the bodies...

Even if those silicon aliens dont show up.. humans are gonna be doin the duplicatin an discardin of bodys... but it will be a gradule process... an dew to rave reviews (from those receivin said improvments) that the idea of "esperience" is bogus... the line of volenteers for the new improved "self" will be long.!!!
 
Even if those silicon aliens dont show up.. humans are gonna be doin the duplicatin an discardin of bodys... but it will be a gradule process... an dew to rave reviews (from those receivin said improvments) that the idea of "esperience" is bogus... the line of volenteers for the new improved "self" will be long.!!!
Oh, yes. I note in my second, melodramatic post that these aliens are already here. If they were darkskinned and had strange clothes it would be a huge political issue.

They want to change us.
They are destroying our (national) identity.


But oddly the most radically fundamental changes will be marketed, most likely, with onlly marginalized objections.

I can improve my car by slowly replacing every part with parts of a porsche. It will not be the same car, of course. Improvement is a misleading word. It implies some sort of duration.

to quote David Bowie...

Look at your children
See their faces in golden rays
Don't kid yourself they belong to you
They're the start of a coming race
The earth is a bitch
We've finished our news
Homo Sapiens have outgrown their use
All the strangers came today
And it looks as though they're here to stay

We are the frog who placed itself in water that is slowly coming to boil and miraculously, despite being the agent, does not notice.

But my issue isn't really this.

I am just pointing out that Occam's Razor can justify total genocide.
 
Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Even if those silicon aliens dont show up.. humans are gonna be doin the duplicatin an discardin of bodys... but it will be a gradule process... an dew to rave reviews (from those receivin said improvments) that the idea of "esperience" is bogus... the line of volenteers for the new improved "self" will be long.!!!

I can improve my car by slowly replacing every part with parts of a porsche. It will not be the same car, of course. Improvement is a misleading word. It implies some sort of duration.

I am just pointing out that Occam's Razor can justify total genocide.

A new version of Occams Razor ant necesary... whats gonna justify the "improvments" is demand for the duration of improved "parts".!!!
 
And they walk among us
but they look like us, these aliens.

No, we don't.

I mean they don't.

Anyway, how about this for an Occam's Razor: in making the claim of the uniqueness of the experiencer, the copying and disintegrating represent unnecessary ethological waypoints. You don't need to go 'round disintegrating people, Tesseract-2-Alpha, I'd tell them as I threw my long scarf back over my shoulder. All other things being equal, carbon-based lifeforms should probably preserve as well as silicates, don't you think? Aren't you taking unnecessary chances on destroying what you propose to preserve with all this excess packaging? How can a lifeform with group memory understand anything about the randomness of the experience of the individual? Humans are wonderful creatures with lots of potential; potential that will put them among the stars. Come along, K-9.
 
No, we don't.

I mean they don't.

Anyway, how about this for an Occam's Razor: in making the claim of the uniqueness of the experiencer, the copying and disintegrating represent unnecessary ethological waypoints. You don't need to go 'round disintegrating people, Tesseract-2-Alpha, I'd tell them as I threw my long scarf back over my shoulder. All other things being equal, carbon-based lifeforms should probably preserve as well as silicates, don't you think? Aren't you taking unnecessary chances on destroying what you propose to preserve with all this excess packaging? How can a lifeform with group memory understand anything about the randomness of the experience of the individual? Humans are wonderful creatures with lots of potential; potential that will put them among the stars. Come along, K-9.
Nice try, but they have all the info and use via the copies. They are much more capable machines then us. They can see if we are let roam around at least some of us will get in their way - with the machine, utterly determined defense and attack systems hardwired into us. They have a cheap, for them, disposal system. The concept of 'should' by the way is foreign to them.
 
Those parts will include the brane... an i see it as evolution... not genocide.!!!
Yup. Insanity can look calm. If we told them we will clone them, the clone will have no diseases and we will kill the original, most would balk. But do it piece by piece and make the copying less visible and bang

lines form.

Personally, I balk. But if you want to get in line, I will not stop you.
 
...do it piece by piece and make the copying less visible and bang

lines form.

Personally, I balk.

Say you was 75 an discovered that Altimers woud soom destroy you'r brane... woud you escept a "copy" that woud replace you'r defective brane cells allowin you to thank as cearly as you do now an feel esactly as you woud if you hadnt been strickin wit Altimers... an the copy was administered thru a simple injection an had proven to have no side effects.???
 
1) They can't be copying the patterns in human brains and then discarding the bodies - without the bodies, the patterns will lose essential governance, and disintegrate/malfunction/go spla. The patterns are not fixed things - they only exist as activities, actions, motion in time and space, and they require feedback damping and/or outside regulation.

2) If they do copy the whole shebang, they will have copied the assumptions and viewpoints of many experiencers - their copies will affirm that they have been killing people, and losing much. Their copies will be difficult to convince otherwise. Any conversations with carbon humans are not the end of the matter.
 
1) They can't be copying the patterns in human brains and then discarding the bodies - without the bodies, the patterns will lose essential governance, and disintegrate/malfunction/go spla. The patterns are not fixed things - they only exist as activities, actions, motion in time and space, and they require feedback damping and/or outside regulation.
What they have done is down to nanolevels copied the brains as info, just like people speculate here we will one day be able to upload 'minds' into computers. In any case are you sure they cannot copy brains in the way that interests THEM? Whatever they are doing is similar to an expedition of humans taking photos. they have uses for the planet and do not want the pesky homonids trotting around. So they take their incredibly sophisticated photos and discard what they see and uninteresting. Something on the order of plants are to us. They simply do not believe in 'experiencers'.

2) If they do copy the whole shebang, they will have copied the assumptions and viewpoints of many experiencers - their copies will affirm that they have been killing people, and losing much. Their copies will be difficult to convince otherwise. Any conversations with carbon humans are not the end of the matter.
The aliens will not care about the opinions of these copies just as they did not care about the originals. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that we do not know what uses they will put the copied information. Perhaps they are simply collectors. The point is they have no concept of subjective experience and applying - mechanically - occam's razor, they ignore the metaphysical seeming objections of the carbon based species as something like thorns on a bush or some other chemical defense from organisms we do not consider conscious.

Heck, we could change the scenario to they use our bodies for fuel and don't even bother copying us. We try to convince them we are experiencers and this has no meaning to them. There are only patterns that recreate themselves. They have no reason to assume there is this entity consciousness or that 'death' matters. Occam's Razor says the simpler adequate explanation should be the accepted one. Into the furnaces we go.
 
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Say you was 75 an discovered that Altimers woud soom destroy you'r brane... woud you escept a "copy" that woud replace you'r defective brane cells allowin you to thank as cearly as you do now an feel esactly as you woud if you hadnt been strickin wit Altimers... an the copy was administered thru a simple injection an had proven to have no side effects.???
And what if someone offered you a cloned body into which they would nanotech a copy of your neural connections?

Would the use of the word 'you' be meaningful for the first body? the one they kill right after?

i can see vanity going for a copy just as some people imagine they live on in their children, but the experiencer will not be the same.

And no, I would not do it.

If I want to kill myself, I'll find an artful way to do it.
 
...If they do copy the whole shebang, they will have copied the assumptions and viewpoints of many experiencers...

Thats an asumption on you'r part... the aliens coud be advanced enuff that the whole shebang of copyin an destroyin the original coud hapen instainously wit-out any of the prollems you describe... an consider the idea that you mite be a copy an not even know it.!!!
 
Thats an asumption on you'r part... the aliens coud be advanced enuff that the whole shebang of copyin an destroyin the original coud hapen instainously wit-out any of the prollems you describe... an consider the idea that you mite be a copy an not even know it.!!!
Thank you. I considered taking that tack, but thought it would end up in a long back and forth. I agree with you, however. We cannot judge advanced technologies or what they could do in an instant. 150 years ago - which might be very short term compared to where these aliens are - scientists then would be shocked, I am quite sure by many of the things we are capable of and would have presented arguments for why they were impossible. In fact they did this. Think of all the stuff made possible by quantum physics findings.
 
And what if someone offered you a cloned body into which they would nanotech a copy of your neural connections?

Would the use of the word 'you' be meaningful for the first body? the one they kill right after?

I dont beleive ther is a "you"... an hell... my body ant the sam 1 i had 10 years ago anyhow... so i have no mor prollem takin a mor healthy "copy" than i woud takin a copy/cure for Altimers.!!!

i can see vanity going for a copy just as some people imagine they live on in their children, but the experiencer will not be the same.

I thank the illusion of "experiencer" will be esactly the sam.!!!
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Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Say you was 75 an discovered that Altimers woud soom destroy you'r brane... woud you escept a "copy" that woud replace you'r defective brane cells allowin you to thank as cearly as you do now an feel esactly as you woud if you hadnt been strickin wit Altimers... an the copy was administered thru a simple injection an had proven to have no side effects.???

And no, I would not do it.

If I want to kill myself, I'll find an artful way to do it.

Under the conditons i described above... how woud you be beter off not takin the "copy" to repair you'r Altimers.???

Chemo destroys lots of cells an dont replace 'em wit healthy cells... woud you also not escept chemo if ther was a 75% chanse it woud destroy a brane tumer an likely give you another 10 healthy years.???
 
I dont beleive ther is a "you".
Then I am not sure why you're worried about being punished by lori's God.
.. an hell... my body ant the sam 1 i had 10 years ago anyhow... so i have no mor prollem takin a mor healthy "copy" than i woud takin a copy/cure for Altimers.!!!
And no motivation. None.


I thank the illusion of "experiencer" will be esactly the sam.!!!
Then for you the aliens pose no threat. Most people will not react like you. Which is fine. But many of those people 'use' Occam's Razor and I am showing what can happen with OR. You are immune to this.

Under the conditons i described above... how woud you be beter off not takin the "copy" to repair you'r Altimers.???
You would not be repairing 'my' Alheimers. You can't first tell me there is no self and then think possessive pronouns have any meaning.

Chemo destroys lots of cells an dont replace 'em wit healthy cells... woud you also not escept chemo if ther was a 75% chanse it woud destroy a brane tumer an likely give you another 10 healthy years.???
You have no idea how relevent this question is, and the fact is we chose a non-destructive option. The doctors do not understand the MRIs and we do not tell them why they show what the doctors said was not possible even with the chemo.

And, again, if there is no self you are not giving 'me' 10 more years. So what the hell are you talking about.
 
doreen said:
What they have done is down to nanolevels copied the brains as info, just like people speculate here we will one day be able to upload 'minds' into computers. In any case are you sure they cannot copy brains in the way that interests THEM? Whatever they are doing is similar to an expedition of humans taking photos
If it doesn't include a sense of self and the viewpoint of an "experiencer", and its activities are so much different from the original as to not require somatic and sensory feedback etc, in what sense is it a "copy"?

A photograph is not a copy.

doreen said:
The point is they have no concept of subjective experience and applying - mechanically - occam's razor, they ignore the metaphysical seeming objections of the carbon based species as something like thorns on a bush or some other chemical defense from organisms we do not consider conscious.
If they have no concept of subjective experience they will be unable to predict behavior reliably - that inability they should notice.

Whether illusion or not, the existence of the various factors we call self awareness affects people's behavior. Occam's Razor presumes a reliable and complete account of phenomena, such as people's social and communicative behavior.
 
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