Syrian War: Israel Returns Fire

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Tiassa, Nov 11, 2012.

  1. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    if I walk onto a firing range and get shot whose fault is it? your basic argument is that it doesn't matter how illegally civilians put them selves into the line of fire it doesn't matter. your sympathy and compassion do you credit however your understanding of international law does not. their are multiple parts of just the geneva conventions involved with moving civilians into occupied territory and directly into the line of fire of military action your pacifism blinds you to the reasons behind some the articles. it does you good that you can't concieve of people who would willing put people into harms way to garner military advantage but their are people who do and Israel by its own actions have shown themselves one of these people. but at the end of the day mutually exclusive things remain mutually exclusive but at the end of the day to be a protected person under the law you can't willfully try to engender attacks against ones self by violating parts of the law designed to protect you.
     
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  3. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    I don't think this paragraph makes sense, mind repeating yourself? There a difference between people who acknowledge Israels crimes and people that also feel its fitting justice for them to be killed, men, women and children.
     
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  5. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    still see your keeping your streak of lying about my beliefs. funny how in response to a post where I state you like to misrepresent my views you misrepresent my views.

    no are you going to stop lying about my religious beliefs or not because I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time you accused of being muslim for supporting the palestinians.
     
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  7. Bells Staff Member

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    If someone deliberately targets you, then it is the fault of the person who shot you.



    And your line of argument would give credence and support to the actions of Israel when they shot that young woman in the face when she tried to stand in the way of a tank or when they attacked the boats that were trying to illegally break a blockade. In short, you are applying a rule which states that if someone lives somewhere illegally, then they are less worthy and their fundamental human rights are somehow no longer recognised. That is not the case at all.

    On the contrary, as a civilian population, the Israeli settlers are supposed to be protected from harm in that their protection is not varied or lessened because they are settlers living in illegal settlements.


    I understand international law enough to know with certainty that civilians are always to be protected and any deliberate attacks on a civilian population can be deemed a war crime.

    "Hamas rocket attacks targeting Israeli civilians are unlawful and unjustifiable, and amount to war crimes," said Iain Levine, program director at Human Rights Watch.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    Under the laws of war, individuals who willfully authorize or carry out deliberate or indiscriminate attacks against civilians are committing war crimes.

    An Israeli early warning siren system, which gives civilians roughly 10 to 45 seconds to find cover in prepared shelters, depending on their distance from the launch site in Gaza, has undoubtedly limited the number of civilian casualties in Israel. However, the repeated attacks have, over months and even years, taken a psychological toll on the population in areas close to Gaza. The laws of war prohibit attacks the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population. Because of the rocket attacks, thousands of people have moved away from frequently targeted areas such as Sderot municipality.

    Palestinian armed groups have argued that the rocket attacks are appropriate reprisals for Israeli military operations and the ongoing economic blockade of Gaza, and are a lawful response to Israel's control over Gaza. Human Rights Watch has also documented numerous laws of war violations by Israeli forces in Gaza, but violations by one party to a conflict never justify violations by the other. Attacks targeting civilians are never permitted under the laws of war, which require armed forces to target only military objectives, and to take all feasible precautions to spare civilians from harm, regardless of the reasons for resorting to armed conflict.

     
  8. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Actually, your provenances don't work out in that link.

    The bolded action represents the 'start point' as defined by the article. Thus, I should conclude that this round of trigger happiness was kicked off by a Gazan buffoon.
     
  9. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    I can't lie about what I don't know, merely project, guess. I don't know what you are, no one does, oh you can make claims, but we don't really know anything about you. Also as others have noted as well as I your arguments usually lead into denying Israeli fundamental human rights.
     
  10. RealityCheck Banned Banned

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    800
    Dude, take a gander at my nom de plume: RealityCheck. Treat with the realities not with the old hatreds and feuds which get in the way of the people NOW getting together and working out what the realities are and not be distracted into continuing violence by the warmongers among them bringing in the past dog-eat-dog and winner-take-all and no-compromise sh!t which millennia of application of same has gotten them into this mess.

    Only the people, not YOU nor ME should have the say once the REALITIES are faced and not just fantasize about 'killing the other' just because their ancestors have been doing it for millennia.

    The modern world is evolving away from all that sh!t. New realities global and local will be the determinant of what is to be done for both sides to be free of the past and start anew TOGETHER.

    Give the people the chance to work out their REAL and SUSTAINABLE solutions based on the real and available alternatives.

    Once this process is started then the UN or some other broker of goodwill and REALITY ORIENTED RELEVANCE can come in and facilitate any compensations, compromises and sustainable society institutions COMMON TO BOTH/ALL REAL PEACE-DEMANDING STAKEHOLDERS (and not the warmongers on all sides).

    Leave out all the 'black and white' blame and rhetoric. Such things have been tried but FAILED as a means to a peace. Let the realities and the people speak and control their own destinies/solutions for a change. Worth a try, since all else has inevitably failed because of the REALITIES on the ground, irrespective of your tit-for-tat blame game mentality/process which you want to carry on even though you ADMIT all that sort of stuff has failed to this point.

    Let Egypt and the UN give the people their voice without blackmail or coercion from the warmongers, whether the warmongers are on their own side or the other side or a third party!

    Good luck to the middle eastern peoples altogether! Peace. Give it a REALITY chance THIS TIME ROUND.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2012
  11. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

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    And why were they attacked? Because Israel is continually attacking Palestinians and building ILLEGAL SETTLEMENTS, not stopping even when asked by US President. "The beginning" is always the Israeli occupation and settlements. Sure Israel doesn't use mortars and bombs, they just use bulldozers to destroy Palestinian homes to build their settlements- so peaceful, just bulldozing people's dreams nothing more

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  12. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    The starter then was the 1948 war, with Jews demanding a section all for there own, Muslims disagreed and wanted jews "in their place" there was war, the Jews won and the Muslims could never completely accept it, and repeat in further wars to this day. Who started this then is a chicken and egg argument that goes no where. The surrounding arabs states bulldozed people dreams when they kicked out almost all their Jews and took their land after 1948, and have continued to push the Palestinians up against Israel, instead of incorporating them into their population, instead putting the pals into camps and restricting them and shaming them and on occasion killing them in great numbers but no one cares because Israel not doing it. The settlers are a problem but its important to see that this is a situation of several horrible people coming together to create a horrible irretractable situation, for their own personal gain: the Zionist, the Muslim-arabs states, the Americans, the Soviets, etc, etc.

    As for why would Gaza instigate this: Hamas needs attention, it needs funding and aid, war with Israel also diverts their public attention to way from their totalitarianism.
     
  13. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

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    3,089
    The starters are the Europeans who came up with the idea of re-establishing the 'Jewish Homeland', creating mass immigration of "Jews" to Palestine, who THEN demanded their own country there called Israel. Prior to this there was no such idea as "wanted Jews in their place". There is no hatred between Muslims and Jews prior to this artificially created problem. It seems more like how 'Europe' got rid of the Jews by simply transferring them to the Middle East by promising them their homeland. Its the Europeans who have a long HISTORY of Antisemitism NOT the Muslims.

    This is like a mass immigration of Mexicans into Texas, then them demanding their own country and then expecting the USA to oblige. Are people wrong in their heads?

    Yes Israel won and was established as a state. The UN passed a resolution in 1967 and created the borders. ISRAEL violates those borders, continues to build settlements on internationally recognized Palestine. Its not a matter of Israel exiting or not. Its a matter of accepting Palestine as defined by the 1967 borders. Israel refuses to do so, while the Palestinian Authority AS WELL as HAMAS accept 1967 borders, ascertaining the legitimacy of Israel as a neighboring state. The problem? Israel is well outside those borders.

    I'd recommend listening to Hamas's leader's interview:
    http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/11032
     
  14. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    22,087
    A worthwhile point. On the same basis, I wonder if you'd agree that the Israelis should similarly have fought back in 1948. And there certainly was such hatred for Jews in Palestine/Israel before then.
     
  15. RealityCheck Banned Banned

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    800
    Resorting to these sorts of arguments for ignoring the realities on the ground NOW, is like saying that the Pakistani muslims should not have been given their own 'homeland' carved out of mostly Hindu India? Where/when will the 'excuses' for ignoring realities end?

    Let the people there sort out peacefully a common/co-existence future as good neighbours once all the peaceful negotiations and necessary compensations and compromises are arrived at by the people THEMSELVES who are sick of all the senseless madness and 'excuses'. Get the warmongers and racial/tribal/ideologue components (from within and without on all sides) out of the equation/process once and for all, and then deal with the realities indicated once threats of violence are out of the picture.

    The UN should be doing this long before now. Get moving, UN!
     
  16. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

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    I don't believe Israel needs to 'perish' so quite clearly I don't care if they fought back in 1948. And 'hatred' is quite strong. Muslims have never 'hated' Jews.
     
  17. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    No hatred between Muslims and Jews you say, perhaps I should quote the prophet Mohammad on this:

    ""The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews , when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.""

    Certainly importation of European antisemitism and the establishment of Israel created modern Muslim antisemitism but before that Jews were placed as second class citizens to be taxed and congregated.

    So? what that got to do with the price of cheese? So the Europeans were more antisemitic once, I was never saying who was more antisemitic, that has nothing to do with today situation!

    No actually its the reverse, this is like a bunch of white people escaping European theocracy, by invading the northern Americas, displacing the native peoples there and then making it a country of their own while completely cutting out the natives that live there for thousands of years... Oh wait that happened! Also another fun fact the USA was were more jews went to then israel, in fact there are arguable more jews live in the USA then Israel, certainly more people who are Jewish by descent. The jews of europe had a choice they were not forced to Israel, its just some choose to go to Israel.

    I would not called Hamas acceptance of the 1967 boarders as accepting legitimacy of Israel Israel certainly is trying to acquire all of the west bank, without having to acquire the people in it, they will eventually have to grant the west bank Palestinians citizenship if they keep trying to take the land, its inevitable.
     
  18. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

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    3,089
    And you think this is saying that Muslims need to go around killing Jews? Its a prophecy of what is to happen before Judgement Day. I can list many more 'the day will not come' prophecies, all of which are bad, there will be incest, warfare, violence, homosexuality, muslims split into 72-sects, Muslims killing Muslims, etc. Its not 'CALLING' Muslims to commit incest, kill other Muslims, split into 72-sects is it? Its telling you what will happen. Unfortunately the issue of Israel-Palestine HAS created hatred towards Jews in general, something that never existed before and unfortunately we are MOVING towards a time when the people in that region probably WILL hate Jews and try to kill them. But this isn't the Prophet ASKING/DEMANDING these things to be done, or 'legitimizing them'. He is saying what is going to happen.

    This could also be in reference to Armageddon, a 'World War', where the Jews would be the enemy, and this would then describe Muslims fighting them. This language would then be in reference to Jewish soldiers, not 'Jews' as a people. For example the Quran speaks of killing the pagans in the warfare verses, but it specifically means 'pagans that are fighting you' not just 'pagans' as a "people", this is evidenced by the fact that pagan civilians were NOT killed.

    If your understanding of these words is to be thought of as 'correct', then isn't there a contradiction between dhimmitude and this? lol. Muslims protect the Dhimmis in return of Jizya, but aren't they supposed to kill them even if they are hiding under a stone? Man stop quoting crap floating around when you clearly can't use your brain to comprehend it.

    If I need to explain 'prophetic' language to you then I should just stop now.

    Are we talking about dhimmitude here now? That is a pretty misunderstood concept, but for the sake of argument I'll 'agree' with whatever pre-conceived nonsense you believe about dhimmitude, it is nowhere close to hatred towards Jews. Its not 'antisemitism' when Christians, Hindus, Zoroastrians were all dhimmis, no 'preference' is shown for you to determine that this was in any way related to 'hatred towards Jews' when others were treated similarly.

    My statement was 'historical', "where it all began" isn't even a relevant question if it was about 'today situation', now is it?

    And I'm not supporting Americans for committing genocide

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    Or is the argument that since Americans can commit genocide so can Jews? When Jews are facing persecution in Europe, its not much of a choice to move 'out'. Yes they weren't 'forced', but the prospective of a "Jewish Homeland" is a strong enough incentive to move to "Israel", whether more people live in US or not is irrelevant, the creation of Israel is dependent on the incentive to move to that particular region.


    How is that guy any more relevant than the idiots in Israel wanting a Greater Israel, mind you who are also in positions in parliament? I linked to an Interview of not just 'a leader in Hamas', but THE Leader of Hamas saying "the resistance will end" with the 1967 borders.

    There will still remain those who feel the whole place is Palestine and they have a right to resistance. But that is quite a 'few' people.
     
  19. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Did I say that?

    "Never existed before" is a gross generalization, let me ask you out of all of Muslim history before european anti-semitism, of millions of believers past, not one instants of antisemitism every occurred?, is that what your saying? Because just one example will destroy your argument. Also we are long past the day when Muslim hatred of Jews would killed Jews. As for Mohammad him self he was more then keen on killing Jews when it suited him.

    Then "historical" is of no relevance either.

    First of Jews aren't committing genocide, every last Jew on earth does not have it out for the Palestinians, second the Palestinians under Israeli occupation and oppression are growing, not dying off, kind for pathetic for genocide. If they had committed genocide there would be no more Palestinians or Palestinians issue today. The argument is these things happen, people come in and take land, we need to deal with the problem after the fact to try to optimize prosperity among the people know, both Jews and Palestinians.

    The creation of a so called "land of freedom and opportunity" was incentive to move to America too, what your point? There were Jews living in trans-Jordon long before the foundation of Israel or even European intervention, so other jews came to join them, because of persecution elsewhere, so what? they gather large enough in population to demand self rule, the surrounding Muslim state objected, fought them in a war and lost, Israel exist, live with it. Then the surrounding Muslims states persecuted out all of their Jews, adding to Israels Jewish population and refused to take in the Palestinians refuges in return, putting them in camps around Israel telling them that was their home and they could go nowhere else and perpetuating the problem to this day so they could have something to point at "look at the evil Jews and our poor Palestinians brothers, divert your attention to them now while I rob you and rule over you all with a iron fist!"

    Honestly I don't care, i don't have a problem with returning to the 1967 boarders, its just not likely to happen. Israel got too many settlements and assets in the west bank, they aren't going to give that up. The best outcome would be if israel would incorporate the west bank, grant full citizenship the the Palestinians and those that want a state of their own can go to Gaza, or perhaps a democratic egypt, syria, or jordon, but that isn't likely as well. What is most likely is that things won't change and hamas will continue to "resist" uselessly for decades.

    they have a right to murder civilians and cause terror because they want some land? If the option was given to them that they could live as equal citizens in Israel would they still "have a right" to bomb and kill? If they had a country all their own (gaza, jordon, what ever) would they still have a right too bomb and kill? Do I have a right to form a country of my own, can I kill anyone to demand my rights?
     
  20. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    I would agree with you if all things were equal. They are not. You are attempting an equivalence where there is none. If you would like to suggest what alternate recourse the Palestinians have, please advise?

    "The overarching fact of this conflict is that the Palestinians, for decades now, have been brutally occupied, blockaded, humiliated, deprived of the most basic human rights of statehood and autonomy though the continuous application of brute, lawless force (for that reason, those who like to righteously condemn Hamas' rockets (Pierce, defending Obama; "he happened to be correct the other day. No country can tolerate the bombing of its citizens") have the obligation to state what form of legitimate resistance Palestinians have to all of this?)."

    The old argument that the Palestinians do not want peace, and that Israel has no recourse to end the Palestinian defensive and that the Palestinians are not receptive to comprehensive peace negotiations and do not and will not recognise the State of Israel does also not hold water.

    Arab Peace Initiative - re endorsed 2007
    "It consists of a comprehensive proposal to end the entire Arab–Israeli conflict.[2] It provides in a relevant part:
    (a) Complete withdrawal from the occupied Arab territories, including the Syrian Golan Heights, to the 4 June 1967 line and the territories still occupied in southern Lebanon; (b) Attain a just solution to the problem of Palestinian refugees to be agreed upon in accordance with the UN General Assembly Resolution No 194. (c) Accept the establishment of an independent and sovereign Palestinian state on the Palestinian territories occupied since 4 June 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip with East Jerusalem as its capital. In return the Arab states will do the following: (a) Consider the Arab–Israeli conflict over, sign a peace agreement with Israel, and achieve peace for all states in the region; (b) Establish normal relations with Israel within the framework of this comprehensive peace."


    Irrelevant to this discussion.
    An opinion only, and irrelevant.
    There are crimes in conflict always, in this particular instance, the power to quell the cyclical violence lies with those that arm and support the oppressor and block all attempts by the Palestinians to gain statehood. There is not one good reason that the Palestinians should not be granted and facilitated a process of self determination and statehood.
     
  21. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    Nope, this was the initial trigger. "Israel kills Palestinian man near Gaza border - medics" (4 Nov)
     
  22. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    3,373
    Thats all good and well. But. How is this notion applied in the real world? How does it eventuate?
     
  23. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Says he approached a security fence and wouldn't leave. Your court.

    One also wonders how a mentally unfit man was let to wander loose around a security fence in the first place.
     

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