Supernatural?

[DaveC426913]

If you are seeing ànd hearing it is NOT supernatural and not ghost

Sorry, this is not true.

The phenomenon of ghosts is a supernatural phenomenon. So is God. So are angels. So is astral projection.

Note: we are not judging whether or not these things really exist ( as opposed to any of a dozen mundane explanations) - we are simply categorizing them.

 

[billvon]

Traditional ghosts are supernatural and they can ostensibly be seen and heard.

Ostensibly, yes. But if they can truly be seen and heard they can be recorded - and that keeps not happening. (MR claims to the contrary.) The simple conclusion is that can not be seen and heard - but can certainly be imagined. And with the very, very strong evidence for the pervasiveness of apophenia (both visual and auditory) Occam's Razor applies.

 

[DaveC426913]

Ostensibly, yes. But if they can truly be seen and heard they can be recorded - and that keeps not happening. (MR claims to the contrary.) The simple conclusion is that can not be seen and heard - but can certainly be imagined. And with the very, very strong evidence for the pervasiveness of apophenia (both visual and auditory) Occam's Razor applies.

Yes. The question of whether they exist or not can be considered independently of their supernaturality. Sprites, faeries and flying dragons are also supernatural, whether or not they exist in reality.

 

[billvon]

Yes. The question of whether they exist or not can be considered independently of their supernaturality. Sprites, faeries and flying dragons are also supernatural, whether or not they exist in reality.

Definitely.

But the moment you can really see them - record them with cameras, measure their energy output, graph their location and speed, determine their transparency, get populations and whatnot - they move from the realm of the supernatural to the natural (if poorly understood.)

 

[Michael 345]

Sorry, this is not true.

The phenomenon of ghosts is a supernatural phenomenon. So is God. So are angels. So is astral projection.

Note: we are not judging whether or not these things really exist ( as opposed to any of a dozen mundane explanations) - we are simply categorizing them.

Fair enough, categorised supernatural stuff under what ever labels you wish

But the stuff you record on instruments (baring defective instrument or operator etc) is objective hence

• natural
• open to be examined
• open to being explained
• open to NOT being able to be explained
• if the previous filed under UNKNOWN

Like unexplained UFOs do not default to spacecraft (or anything else). Just remain unexplained

 

[Write4U]

Dave said: Sorry, this is not true.
The phenomenon of ghosts is a supernatural phenomenon. So is God. So are angels. So is astral projection.

Note: we are not judging whether or not these things really exist ( as opposed to any of a dozen mundane explanations) - we are simply categorizing them.

But then are we categorizing them properly?

Phenomenon, noun.

1. a fact or situation that is observed to exist or happen, especially one whose cause or explanation is in question.
   "glaciers are unique and interesting natural phenomena"

Are any of the above actually observable or are they hallucinatory which makes them "imaginary phenomena" and not subject to scientific investigation except by neurologists and psychologists?

 

[Bowser]

Is it possible to define a religion without invoking anything supernatural?

I have a problem with that word. It seems to invoke special meaning to the mundane: Super-Natural.

 

[James R]

It seems to invoke special meaning to the mundane: Super-Natural.

What it does is that it distinguishes the mundane from that which is considered to be beyond the restrictions of the merely natural. "Super" means above or beyond. Any person or thing that can break (or make) natural law is, by definition, supernatural.

 

[Write4U]

I have a problem with that word. It seems to invoke special meaning to the mundane: Super-Natural.

A "miracle" is not a mundane phenomenon. It is either an imaginary phenomenon or a supernatural phenomenon.
By definition a miracle cannot be a natural phenomenon.

mir·a·cle , noun

1. a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.
   "the miracle of rising from the grave"

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/miracle

 

[Bowser]

A "miracle" is not a mundane phenomenon. It is either an imaginary phenomenon or a supernatural phenomenon.
By definition a miracle cannot be a natural phenomenon.

Nature in itself is a miracle, is it not?

 

[DaveC426913]

Nature in itself is a miracle, is it not?

Not with the technical definition of miracle, no.

Sure, you can label anything you want as a miracle if you really really like that thing and choose to use the term miracle to define anything that fascinates you and brings you joy.

But nature is, by definition, not a miracle, since
a] it is about as well understood in scientific terms as anything, and
b] mundane, since it is, in every sense of the term, everywhere.

 

[Bowser]

miracle,
a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.

So, by definition, nothing classified by natural and scientific laws can be attributed to divine agency?

 

[paddoboy]

miracle,
a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.

The supernatural and paranormal are unscientific concepts.

So, by definition, nothing classified by natural and scientific laws can be attributed to divine agency?

If something can be explained by natural laws and/or events, why would you need to invoke any supernatural entity?
We can reasonably explain the evolution of the universe back to t+10-43 seconds...we can explain how and why stars ignite and/or are born...

 

[Write4U]

Nature in itself is a miracle, is it not?

Naahh..., the earth with it's combined chemical richness and long time frames has already performed some 2 trillion, quadrillion, quadrillion, quadrillion evolutionary chemical interactions during its relativly short universal life span.

According to Robert Hazen it was almost invitable that life appear at some point, as it almost certainly has evolved on other similar planets throughout the universe. Other earthlike planets may be rare, but they are by no means especially unique.

The same chemistry is pretty well distributed throughout the entire universe. And the numbers of stars with planets is practically incalculable. It is counted in astronomical numbers.

What is remarkable, is that life on earth has been so incredibly abundant in numbers and variety, but we are apparently situated in a "cinderella zone" which makes it easy for living things to evolve rapidly.

As Hazen declares, the combined dynamic potentials of Earth made it "necessary" for life to evolve.

Our current Coronavirus crisis is witness to the ability of even the simplest proto-lifeforms to mutate. How many previous strains of the Coronavirus have been known to exist?
There is plenty evidence of a healthy evolutionary process of flora and fauna on earth at all levels of complexity.

 

[Write4U]

This may show how normal it is for life to emerge via abiogenetic processes.

http://www.cupertino.org/Home/ShowDocument?id=3655

Photosynthetic microbial mats are complete microbial ecosystems that can construct laminated "miniature reefs" called stromatolites. Their fossilized equivalents are among the oldest most abundant evidence of early life. Dr. Des Marais and his colleagues have studied cyanobacterial mats in an arid coastal environment at the Exportadora de Sal, S.A. (ESSA) salt works, Guerrero Negro, Baja California Sur, Mexico.

He will show how the mats' oxygenated zone reflects a dynamic balance between vigorous photosynthetic O2 production and O2 consumption by diverse sulfide-oxidizing and heterotrophic bacteria. Anoxygenic phototrophs and sulfate-reducing bacteria are quantitatively important consumers of dissolved organic matter.

He will show how several previously unknown rRNS gene sequences of bacteria and eukarya were identified, indicating that these mats can extend our understanding of the diversity and early evolution of benthic microbial communities. He continues to catalog the diversity of lipid biosignatures, whose fossil equivalents can record the diversity of ancient microbial ecosystems.

The thing to remember is that chemistry adheres to strict mathematical formulas, which basically removes the often cited concept of "chance". Mathematics do not behave according to chance, but in accordance to exponetial growth of chemical interactions and the self-formation of ever greater complexity. No Supernatural interference is required, just mathematical permissions and restrictions.

 

[James R]

miracle,
a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.

So, by definition, nothing classified by natural and scientific laws can be attributed to divine agency?

miracle (n.)
1. Any amazing or wonderful occurrence
2. A marvellous event manifesting a supernatural act of a divine agent

If it's a natural occurrence, then it is not the supernatural act of a divine agent, ergo not a miracle.

 

[Bowser]

If it's a natural occurrence, then it is not the supernatural act of a divine agent, ergo not a miracle.

That's a matter of perspective, is it not? Are you satisfied giving Merriam Webster that much authority?

 

[Bowser]

Acorn or Tree?

 

[Write4U]

That's a matter of perspective, is it not? Are you satisfied giving Merriam Webster that much authority?

Perhaps you should consult Merriam Webster for the definition of Dictionary.
Being from Holland, I certainly give Merriam Webster much more authority than the Bible....

Acorn or Tree?

Acorn (fruit of the Oaktree)

Egg or Chicken? Omelette?

 

[James R]

That's a matter of perspective, is it not?

No.

If you want to believe that all natural occurrences are down to the supernatural intervention of God, that's your prerogative, but it means that - for you - the distinction between natural and supernatural is meaningless. You will find that most people make the distinction, even if you do not.

Are you satisfied giving Merriam Webster that much authority?

Dictionaries record the ways in which people use words. They are descriptive, not prescriptive.