Stars as Alien Messengers?

[Richard Townsend]

How likely is it that the first sign of alien life will be a whisper from a star, not a shout from a planet?

 

[Olga]

How likely is it that the first sign of alien life will be a whisper from a star, not a shout from a planet?

Нужно определиться с тем, что такое жизнь. Если это обычный набор химических реакций (той, или иной степени сложности), то всю материю во Вселенной можно считать жизнью. И звёзды, и планеты, тоже.

 

[exchemist]

How likely is it that the first sign of alien life will be a whisper from a star, not a shout from a planet?

Very unlikely. The conditions in and around stars are not suitable for the stable existence of complex molecules: too hot, too much radiation.

 

[Richard Townsend]

Very unlikely. The conditions in and around stars are not suitable for the stable existence of complex molecules: too hot, too much radiation.

But think - what if the molecules don't live in the star, but are spat out during its explosive death? Supernovae, for one, create brief, cool pockets where heavy elements clump together. And we've already found organic specks in meteorites. Who's to say those weren't born watching a star's last breath?

 

[exchemist]

But think - what if the molecules don't live in the star, but are spat out during its explosive death? Supernovae, for one, create brief, cool pockets where heavy elements clump together. And we've already found organic specks in meteorites. Who's to say those weren't born watching a star's last breath?

Tell me more about these cool pockets. I have not come across these. How long do they persist?

 

[Richard Townsend]

Tell me more about these cool pockets. I have not come across these. How long do they persist?

Those cool pockets aren't exactly brief moments right at the explosion - they form as the supernova ejecta expand and cool over months to years. Right after the blast, everything's millions of degrees, way too hot for molecules. But the material shoots out fast, and as it expands, the density drops and temperature plummets. In clumpy, denser regions of the ejecta (like oxygen-rich or carbon-rich zones), cooling happens quicker - molecules like CO and SiO start forming around 100 to 300 days post-explosion, sometimes earlier for simple ones. By a few hundred days (say 300-600), CO can dominate the cooling in those zones, dropping temps enough for more complex stuff to stick together. These cooler clumps persist for years - observations of remnants like Cassiopeia A (about 350 years old) still show cold molecular gas and ongoing formation. In SN 1987A, we detected CO and SiO starting around 200 days, and it's been traceable for decades. For really complex organics (like in meteorites),

 

[DaveC426913]

dropping temps enough for more complex stuff to stick together.

Stuff "sticking together" is unlikely to be sufficient for life to arise from non-life.

As far as we know, it needs a "primordial soup", chock full of organic compounds, cheek-by-jowl, and constantly intermixed.

cool over months to years....around 100 to 300 days post-explosion, ... These cooler clumps persist for years -

Months? Years?

Life on Eerth took hundreds of millions of years - and in a rich, stable environment.

I just don't see how you can get a literal soup in the rarified environs of a star's atmo. Free-floating molecules are metres or kilometrws apart instead of micrometres apart. Particles that get stuck together can't mix and recombine because they are not suspended in a liquid. There's no liquid water to act as a solvent, no lipids to form membranes, etc.

 

[Richard Townsend]

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Stuff "sticking together" is unlikely to be sufficient for life to arise from non-life.

As far as we know, it needs a "primordial soup", chock full of organic compounds, cheek-by-jowl, and constantly intermixed.


Months? Years?

Life on Eerth took hundreds of millions of years - and in a rich, stable environment.

I just don't see how you can get a literal soup in the rarified environs of a star's atmo. Free-floating molecules are metres or kilometrws apart instead of micrometres apart. Particles that get stuck together can't mix and recombine because they are not suspended in a liquid. There's no liquid water to act as a solvent, no lipids to form membranes, etc.

 

[DaveC426913]

A supernova explodes, and for a brief moment, temperatures drop. Pressure rises, causing molecules to stick together before bursting apart. Those that survive the journey might one day encounter water and begin to evolve.

OK, that's very different from your opening statement, which was about signs of alien life.

Now you are walking it way back to merely the creation of, say, amino acids.

Sure. We know amino acids come from deep space embedded in meteors.

But amino acids aren't life. They need a little more than just water to go from molecules to life.

 

[Wizard of Whatever]

Very unlikely. The conditions in and around stars are not suitable for the stable existence of complex molecules: too hot, too much radiation.

Maybe not if based on silicon rather than carbon.

 

[billvon]

But think - what if the molecules don't live in the star, but are spat out during its explosive death? Supernovae, for one, create brief, cool pockets where heavy elements clump together. And we've already found organic specks in meteorites. Who's to say those weren't born watching a star's last breath?

"Organic specks" - agreed. As that stuff cools you get all sorts of reactions including organic (i.e. containing carbon.)

But that is a far cry from life.

 

[Pinball1970]

How likely is it that the first sign of alien life will be a whisper from a star, not a shout from a planet?

Or a shout from a black hole.

REPORTED

 

[exchemist]

Those cool pockets aren't exactly brief moments right at the explosion - they form as the supernova ejecta expand and cool over months to years. Right after the blast, everything's millions of degrees, way too hot for molecules. But the material shoots out fast, and as it expands, the density drops and temperature plummets. In clumpy, denser regions of the ejecta (like oxygen-rich or carbon-rich zones), cooling happens quicker - molecules like CO and SiO start forming around 100 to 300 days post-explosion, sometimes earlier for simple ones. By a few hundred days (say 300-600), CO can dominate the cooling in those zones, dropping temps enough for more complex stuff to stick together. These cooler clumps persist for years - observations of remnants like Cassiopeia A (about 350 years old) still show cold molecular gas and ongoing formation. In SN 1987A, we detected CO and SiO starting around 200 days, and it's been traceable for decades. For really complex organics (like in meteorites),

I notice you cut off your chatbot's reply mid sentence.

I have to tell you it is the height of rudeness to cut and paste chatbot responses pretending they are your own. I am not going to waste my time corresponding with a robot. Others on the forum are likely to take the same view.

If you must use AI, you need to make clear what passages are from AI, as distinct from your own words, say which AI you are using and list the references it has provided in making its response.

 

[Richard Townsend]

I notice you cut off your chatbot's reply mid sentence.

I have to tell you it is the height of rudeness to cut and paste chatbot responses pretending they are your own. I am not going to waste my time corresponding with a robot. Others on the forum are likely to take the same view.

If you must use AI, you need to make clear what passages are from AI, as distinct from your own words, say which AI you are using and list the references it has provided in making its response.

I didn’t “cut off” anything, and I’m not trying to pass off anyone else’s words as my own. I’m just asking questions and taking part in the discussion like everyone else. If something I wrote sounded too polished for your taste, that wasn’t intentional.

Either way, I’m here to talk about the actual topic, not argue about writing style. If you want to address the question, great - if not, that’s fine too.

 

[Pinball1970]

I didn’t “cut off” anything, and I’m not trying to pass off anyone else’s words as my own. I’m just asking questions and taking part in the discussion like everyone else. If something I wrote sounded too polished for your taste, that wasn’t intentional.

Either way, I’m here to talk about the actual topic, not argue about writing style. If you want to address the question, great - if not, that’s fine too.

Why have you suddenly posted multiple threads on multiple topics? Did you suddenly just get interested in a lot of random stuff all at the same time?

 

[Richard Townsend]

Why have you suddenly posted multiple threads on multiple topics? Did you suddenly just get interested in a lot of random stuff all at the same time?

I don’t see the issue. I read a lot of different things and ask questions when something catches my interest. That’s all there is to it. If a topic doesn’t appeal to you, feel free to skip it.

 

[exchemist]

I didn’t “cut off” anything, and I’m not trying to pass off anyone else’s words as my own. I’m just asking questions and taking part in the discussion like everyone else. If something I wrote sounded too polished for your taste, that wasn’t intentional.

Either way, I’m here to talk about the actual topic, not argue about writing style. If you want to address the question, great - if not, that’s fine too.

Ballocks. The last sentence of your post 6 cuts off at a comma and is clearly incomplete. There is just no way you would have done that if you had written it yourself.

I contend you are using AI without acknowledgement.

If you are really here to talk that's great. But if you are not really here, or only as a go-between between us and your chatbot, then forget it.

 

[Richard Townsend]

Ballocks. The last sentence of your post 6 cuts off at a comma and is clearly incomplete. There is just no way you would have done that if you had written it yourself.

I contend you are using AI without acknowledgement.

If you are really here to talk that's great. But if you are not really here, or only as a go-between between us and your chatbot, then forget it.

I think you’re reading far too much into a typo. Everyone posts the occasional half‑sentence or formatting slip - it doesn’t mean anything deeper. I’m here to talk about the topic, not argue about whether my writing style meets someone’s expectations.

If you want to discuss the subject, great. If not, that’s your choice.

 

[DaveC426913]

I think you’re reading far too much into a typo. Everyone posts the occasional half‑sentence or formatting slip - it doesn’t mean anything deeper. I’m here to talk about the topic, not argue about whether my writing style meets someone’s expectations.

I see he does not deny that his post is pasted from a chatbot. Noted.

 

[C C]

How likely is it that the first sign of alien life will be a whisper from a star, not a shout from a planet?

Even the "supposed" plasma experiments in labs and their random equivalents in Earth's atmosphere are just pale imitators of some aspects of life. In the sun or other star they would be especially unstable, any tentative organizations would soon be disrupted. Astrophysical plasma in nebulas might fare developmentally better in some related Freeman Dyson type speculation context, but that's still very far-fetched. Even if a replicating pattern got started and endured, achieving any degree of progressive intelligence and technology within a matter medium like plasma seems an insurmountable challenge.

Plasma blobs hint at new form of life
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn4174-plasma-blobs-hint-at-new-form-of-life/

Plasma events a form of pre-life in the thermosphere?
https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation?paperid=131506

Astrophysical plasma
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrophysical_plasma