Spare the rod, spoil the child

Children aren't stupid. If they feel neglected before they do something, and receive attention after they do something, they will realize that their action resulted in more attention. The behavior will thus be reinforced.

Children are not evil either.


This is true of a great many situations. If a child throws a tantrum, and the parent responds by paying more attention to them, giving them treats, changing their plans etc the child will realize that he can use tantrums to get his way. If tantrums result in either no reaction or a negative outcome (i.e. they can no longer go to the store with mom) then they will eventually give up on them as an attention-getting tool.

Giving children treats is not what I mean by "paying more attention to the child".
By "paying more attention to the child" I mean 'spending more quality time with the child'. This way, the child knows that the parents are not rejecting him and so he won't be inclined to use tantrums or even criminal acts to get their attention.
 
There are few joys as profound or as simple as getting down on the floor with your child and playing with them for extended periods of time.

At 19 years old, he still brings up specific play-times that he enjoyed a lot when he was small, as did I. Some of the happiest times I have ever had were building Duplo towers for him to knock down so we could start over again while the Screwy Squirrel marathon was playing on Cartoon Network.....those life experiences are treasure to cherish indeed. :)
 
Some of your kids need a good ass whipping . Some of you might need a good ass whipping . Me children don't . Teach your children well your fathers hell will slowly go by . I don't beat My kids . I slapped one of me step daughters one time . She was a Juvenal delinquent . Hard to handle . She was cutting class on a regular bases before we found out and we had a confrontation . I slapped here she ran out and didn't come back for 4 hours. She stopped cutting school . but she also told the school her mean ass step father slapped her . I got the call and they asked Me if I slapped her . I said " Damn straight I slapped her . They let it go , with a stern warning to Me " Don't do that "

A whack at a disobedient child is not "child abuse" but something needed to make them grow up into good citizens. "Child abuse" is when it is done often and has nothing to do with constructive discipline, and especially if it ends in injury.

Children need to know that if they do go too far, they will get physical punishment and it needs to be immediate to be most effective. This is a good way to install a sense of justice in the young. My deceased wife had a problem with physical punishment but once resorted to dumped a bucket full of cold water on her pouting/tantrum daughter.

A man especially needs to project a sense of "don't cross me" by going too far, by testing me too much. Children need limits and feel more secure having them.

We of the older generations remember physical punishment. I got whacked with a wooden coat hanger because I often needed it. Some children never need it. One I know of like that hit the teens and turned into a hippy that never recovered, one that could never afterwards live a normal life.

In the swimming pool, I have seen spoiled children I do not know deliberately splash unwanted water on her parents and other swimmers but be careful not to spash me. Children are very peceptive and know what they can get away with with whom! They can tell by impossible-to-imitate body language.

They need to learn to respect their elders. Otherwise, they grow up respecting nothing. They need to adjust to the real hard world they face.

brough
http://civilization-overview.com
I hate nit-pickers!
 
One size does not fit all. The debate over spanking comes down to each side trying to create a new one size fits all, with the other side able to show that particular one size, does not fit all sizes. The truth is there are cases where spanking works and other cases where it does not work.

A male child who is rough and tumble will not feel the same level pain from a spanking as a sensitive child. The rough tumble child might suffer worse pain trying his new flying machine off the shed. A spanking may lower his long term pain and may be the best way to reach them. The sensitive child would be reached in other ways, using mental spankings, since their mind might be tougher than their bodies or feelings.

A better approach would be to come up with a half dozen physical, intellectual, emotional, etc spanking procedures, which can meet the basic needs of the top six types of children. Boys who run in gangs, do not seem to mind physical pain, since the initiation inot the gang might involve a welcome beating. Spanking could have reached these tough kids, since the soft misdirected alternative did not register.
 
Once upon a time it was a normal feature of spousal relationships for husbands to hit their wives. There was nothing abusive about it, men were simply performing their duty to discipline. Women can be very stubborn after all, willfully defying the wishes of their husbands, or being disrespectful and moody, forgetting who is the boss in the relationship. The hitting was thought of as nothing more than a useful corrective tool if done properly out of the desire to teach. Everyone knew these husbands were very loving and only wanted what is best for their partners. Lets face facts, some wives need a good smack now and again to put them in their place. You have to be firm with them, and they will thank you later in life once they come to their senses.

Looking back, it shocks us that our entire civilization betrayed women by siding with the aggressor, blaming the victim, and coming up with ridiculous ex post facto rationalizations that reverse the rules of reality by ignoring the obvious truth that respect is only taught by modeling respect, and that physical aggression against a politically, economically, and socially disadvantaged underclass is completely unacceptable by any sane definition of morality.

For the longest time, women simply were not thought of as fully human, as is still the case with children presently. This is easy to recognize once you see the ease with which people talk about parenting issues as though it were axiomatic that children are the property of their parents. An undertone pervades these discussions with no corroborating evidence that an explicit claim on the regulation of children’s' souls by parents is justified on the basis of morality, when in actual fact it is nothing more than the blind biological accident of birth that is responsible for that power. If there is a behavioral problem with the kid, it is assumed that his refusal to listen or bad attitude is responsible. But no time is spent on considering whether his feelings of a lack of credibility in authority are justified. Perphaps living with adults who now, having been deprived of the full status of a personhood when they were kids, have the freedom to assert moral, psychological, or physical superiority over another human being with full impunity means that a lot of the child's needs are being neglected, and identity enmeshment has taken over the family system. As they get older they become more capable of defending themselves and rebelling, but inevitably the parents blame them for that too. Calling them willfull, or stubborn, and accusing them of thinking they know everything. Which of course is classic projection. Notably, spanking usually stops by the time the kids are big enough to fight back.

Society of course has a total double standard and will bend over backwards to defend parents. For example, if you force your girlfreind to sit at the dinner table until she's finished her food (which makes her gag), you are liable to get a restraining order, but if you do it to a dependant child, you are lauded for being a firm parent.

Anyone whose read literature on the subject will know that psychological make-up of the family is infinitely dense, with many interrelated and largely unconscious causal factors at play leading to the generation of a child’s orientation in the world, and the degree of "good" or "bad" behavior he will manifest. In order to parent effectively one must be sure they aren't parenting split off and dissociated aspects of their own psychology, which requires dealing with core issues and first principles. Yet most people just opt to turn the child into a scapegoat. Countless parenting articles more or less explicitly state an intention to alleviate guilt in the caretaker. Meanwhile an epidemic of "chemical imbalances" in the young generates an entire industry devoted to drugging them into docility, their future has been sold off through debts that can never be repaid, and scores of young men are sent to foreign countries to die in pointless wars started by their sociopathic presidents. If the kids don't respect us, we should be applauding them. We should be listening to them. We should be learning from them.

That is why spanking doesn't seem weird to most people. They think they have an intuitive grasp that as a rule it is justified but this is born out of a considerable emotional blind spot. The reason it is so difficult to see is also the reason it is a blind spot.

Children act out when they aren't having their needs met or are testing to see whether they are accepted unconditionally, as they understandibly have significant doubts about given the prevelence of behaviorism in conventional parenting and schooling practice. It is only the projection of adults steeped in the Judeo-Christian tradition of excessive moralizing that insists that this behavior is "bad" and thereby miss the point entirely. The facts just don't add up. Violence and cruelty are learned behaviors that arise when children are brought up in environments where hypocrisy is present and empathy is inconstant. What could be more hypocritical and less empathetic than labeling a kid who won't listen as "bad" and a parent who hits someone one-fifth his size as "good"?

The word "spanking" is a feeling terminating euphemism designed to cover up guilt.

Denial in the Family System: http://www.youtube.com/user/dmackler58#p/u/29/yL7XFVYLbR8
 
Psyche -

On the one hand, I strongly agree with all you've said.

On the other hand, my concern is this: How are young people supposed to learn to deal with anger, aggressiveness, controlling behavior from other people?

The fact is that people sometimes are angry, aggressive, controlling - and someone who is not used to them can easily become overwhelmed, to their own disadvantage.

I am not suggesting that parents ought to treat their children harshly, in order to teach them that "life is hard."
But people who are agressive and controlling generally do seem to be better off.
 
Psyche -

On the one hand, I strongly agree with all you've said.

On the other hand, my concern is this: How are young people supposed to learn to deal with anger, aggressiveness, controlling behavior from other people?

The fact is that people sometimes are angry, aggressive, controlling - and someone who is not used to them can easily become overwhelmed, to their own disadvantage.

I am not suggesting that parents ought to treat their children harshly, in order to teach them that "life is hard."
But people who are agressive and controlling generally do seem to be better off.

I think that children with strong familial bonds and have a healthy internally generated sense of self that isn't dependant on things like approval or performance will be much better able to confront people who do intrude on their boundaries, as inevitably happens. A lot of my favorite thinkers were educated as small children in montessori schools, which are considerably more respectful towards kids than the prussian model, and so wen they did go into public school they were much better able to differentiate their own thoughts and feelings from the ones the schools try to hammer into children, and were better able to resist conformity pressures. Most teenagers who rebel against aggressive authority figures actually don't have a strong enough belief in themselves to get transcend the resentment that goes along with the rebellion. They end up defining themselves by their rebellion which is just another way of saying they have totally internalized the values of others. Children who have a more significant say say in the narrative in their own lives won't be affected by teachers or peers who try to shame them as ones who are insecurely attatched, and be better empowered to turn into wonderfully indivuated, empathic, and curios adults.
 
It seems that what you're actually teaching them is to fear elders, not to respect them.
There's a big difference between the two.

One of the behavioral traits common to us and all the other primate species is the importance of an alpha male to hold the group together and protect it. It translates as "children needing an authority figure." Children raised in a fatherless home are more likely to have police records and drop out of school.

We may admire a person because he or she is nice, cultured, humorous, etc. but if you are unafraid to insult and demean the individual, then he or she is no authority figure. You have to have a sense that he will make you regret it one way or another if you do. You have that fear. The two together are necessary in order to respect someone.

An authority figure person is confident because he knows he or she is respected and does not fear other people. This confidence is conveyed through body language. It is also evident in personal distance. When such a person approaches too close, you back away. As with most social theory, this is all no simple subject.
 
Giving children treats is not what I mean by "paying more attention to the child". By "paying more attention to the child" I mean 'spending more quality time with the child'. This way, the child knows that the parents are not rejecting him and so he won't be inclined to use tantrums or even criminal acts to get their attention.

Again, if you teach a child that the way to get "more quality time" is by throwing a tantrum, they will do so more often to get the desired outcome. If you teach a child that their tantrum will not get the goal they desire, they will seek other behaviors to get their desired outcome. This is basic psychology.

If a worker is rewarded (by accolades, promises of promotion, a better office etc) every time they screamed profanities at their boss, do you think this would tend to increase or decrease their tendency to scream profanities at their boss? Would it be reasonable to reward such people in hopes that they did it less?
 
Again, if you force a child to do your bidding by violence or the threat of violence, you will have taught them that "might makes right". They will then adopt that method in their dealing with others.

There is your application to society. :mad:

Give your children fear and that is what they will give to the rest of us if they are able. Parents who use violence - spanking inclusive - to get what they want are being lazy and remiss in their responsibility as parents. You think that you are so much better than the majority of people that you can go ahead and just whack that kid to make them do your bidding, but you would never do that in anger or frustration?

I call bullshit on that theory. :( Additionally, there is no need to patronize the lady for being compassionate. I have a Buddhists compassion - want to slap me around a bit too?
 
I got hit out of anger enough that I just gave up trying to make them happy. It's not that I was a particularly bad kid, I was just never perfect. Now I can't stand myself for not being perfect, and I can't usually manage perfect.
So I do hardly anything, and fail anyway. But it hurts a tiny bit less.
 
Never did me or anyone in my family any harm.
It works differently for different people; Some see a lack of discipline as free reign - give them an inch and they take a mile.
You just have to use your own judgement and think of it as an extreme last resort.
 
One size does not fit all. The debate over spanking comes down to each side trying to create a new one size fits all, with the other side able to show that particular one size, does not fit all sizes. The truth is there are cases where spanking works and other cases where it does not work.

A male child who is rough and tumble will not feel the same level pain from a spanking as a sensitive child. The rough tumble child might suffer worse pain trying his new flying machine off the shed. A spanking may lower his long term pain and may be the best way to reach them. The sensitive child would be reached in other ways, using mental spankings, since their mind might be tougher than their bodies or feelings.

A better approach would be to come up with a half dozen physical, intellectual, emotional, etc spanking procedures, which can meet the basic needs of the top six types of children. Boys who run in gangs, do not seem to mind physical pain, since the initiation inot the gang might involve a welcome beating. Spanking could have reached these tough kids, since the soft misdirected alternative did not register.

My thoughts exactly. Punishment needs to fit the crime, but it should not always be physical nor should it never be physical.

A society that praises non-volence in the schools but that loads them up with violent movies, TV, and games is not working well. If the non-volence theme is actually imposed,:peace: we will end up with generations of compassion-oriented, pacifist-dominated militants and such a small, miserable army to protect us that the US will garner no more respect in the world. We Americans will be despised everywhere.:jawdrop: Our Constitution-oriented secular system that the world once thought was what made us strong would, in turn, be seen by the world as a failure, a passing fancy that instead explains our decline and collapse.

brough
http://civilization-overview.com
I hate nit-pickers!
 
Again, if you teach a child that the way to get "more quality time" is by throwing a tantrum, they will do so more often to get the desired outcome. If you teach a child that their tantrum will not get the goal they desire, they will seek other behaviors to get their desired outcome. This is basic psychology.

It's not even basic psychology for rats or dogs.

It looks as if you are trying to justify the withdrawal of parental love; and that if a child doesn't accept the withdrawal of parental love, then parental love should be withdrawn even more - until the child learns to live with little or no parental love at all.

To cure a neglected child that is acting out, the child should be neglected even more, so that the little bastard learns to either shut up, suck up, or die. Indeed!
 
Again, if you force a child to do your bidding by violence or the threat of violence, you will have taught them that "might makes right".

The threat of violence should be only one part of a parent's repertoire, and it should be an absolute last resort. No one is suggesting that "you force a child to do your bidding by violence."

The sad fact that new-agey touchy feely parenting books often gloss over is that the world is a dangerous place. A four year old can be killed by running into the street. A teenager can be killed by doing large amounts of drugs. Ignoring these because you don't want to scare them, or don't want to have them "live in fear," is bad parenting.

So yes, in some cases you deal with them through threats. A toddler might lose his right to play outside if he runs into the street, and knowing that will likely keep him safer. In some cases he might even get spanked for doing that, and that will keep him safer as well. It is a last resort - but a parent who is not willing to do what it takes to keep their children safe is a poor parent.

You think that you are so much better than the majority of people that you can go ahead and just whack that kid to make them do your bidding, but you would never do that in anger or frustration?

Nope. No parent should punish their child to "do their bidding." They should use punishment as a deterrent for dangerous activities, one that either put the child at risk or will put him at risk in the future.
 
It's not even basic psychology for rats or dogs.

Then you have never spent any significant amount of time with rats or dogs. Behavior that is rewarded is reinforced.

It looks as if you are trying to justify the withdrawal of parental love

Nope.

and that if a child doesn't accept the withdrawal of parental love, then parental love should be withdrawn even more - until the child learns to live with little or no parental love at all.

Nope.

To cure a neglected child that is acting out, the child should be neglected even more, so that the little bastard learns to either shut up, suck up, or die. Indeed!

Nope. The only one who is suggesting neglecting them is you.
 
Gee Bill, it almost seems that you are deliberately missing my point here. I am going to guess/infer that you are not a parent in light of this.

I did not get my knowledge from some 'touchy - feely' parenting book. I got my knowledge of rational parenting from 40+ years of university education in the field of psychology. That comes with 2 degrees. It has worked out very well for my son thus far, as well as for a whole bunch of other human beings I have assisted.

Also, I not only know what I am talking about - I am right on this point.

We live in Detroit. My wife and son are both very clear that we live in a dangerous world, go dangerous places and meet dangerous people. My son knows that my self - defense attitude borders on paranoia. I hold advanced rank in the martial arts, have a CCW and carry a .357 J - frame revolver often. Also a tactical baton, 400K stunner, a knife, a Shrike tomahawk and a .25 Beretta on appropriate occasions. My son has witnessed me in self defense situations often throughout his life and is quite well aware that this is a dangerous world we live in.

Not getting spanked has not made him a sissy or naive about violence. That is simply an odd suggestion made in order to rationalize unnecessary violence against the helpless.
 
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