Spare the rod, spoil the child

[Michael]

If I had to have a political label (which I think are oxymoronic by nonetheless) if would have been Progressive. While I still believe a society with liberal ideals is ... ideal I do not think the approach is producing this society. Just the opposite.

I think to some degree society is spoiled and like a child not forced to clean her room, we're now in a mess. Everyone is looking to the government to come in a clean the room. But, the government is some old drunk shit who spoiled the child to begin with.

So, I'm still liberal, but now I'd say I'm a Libertarian, not a Progressive. I THINK both types of people want to achieve a similar social outcome, it's just that they take differing approaches to dealing with one another in society.


Oh, could someone change the title to the correct spelling

 

[leopold]

But, the government is some old drunk shit who spoiled the child to begin with.

i believe it was mass production that "spoiled the child".
the ability to deliver the goods at a modest price is what made americans "lazy".
going back to an "agrarian based" economy will reverse that trend.

 

[Stoniphi]

"Forcing" a child to do anything is a poor idea. If parents do not put up barriers between themselves and their child, the child will look to them for advice and will emulate their values and thinking. If the child's room is dirty the child must put up living in their own mess. If the parents keep their room clean and enjoy that, the child will eventually clean their room without prompting.

"Do as I say, not as I do" does NOT work.

"The rod" referenced in the xtian bible is actually a shepard's staff. The shepard does not hit the sheep with the staff. Rather, he merely touches the lead sheep on the side to guide them where he wishes them to go. The term "spare the rod and spoil the child" means that good parents guide their children into a lifestyle choice that favours their success in this life. It does NOT mean to beat or otherwise abuse children.

Yeah, the government is broken and needs fixing, but over-simplistic drastic changes are unlikely to make things any better. Such could well make things worse, in fact.

The problems that we face are very complex and the whole world economy is going to have to change in many ways if we are to survive.

Yes, the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights are a very good base, but no, they do not need editing or expansion at this time.

 

[wynn]

Neglect and spoiling usually go hand in hand, but beating does not make up for the consequences of neglect, nor does it heal the consequences of spoiling.

 

[wellwisher]

There is no one size fits all when it comes to children. There are sensitive children who can be persuaded in subtle ways. There a good children who naturally do what is beneficial. There are also harder children, who need extra sensory input to help motivate them.

The one size fits all of the past involved spanking. Progressive thinking saw that one size does not fit all, since it was abusive to sensitive children. But instead of expanding using common sense, they created a new one size fits all. This one size fits all, which is no structuring and let the child be the parent, does not work with the harder kids. These kids often benefit by some form of righteous spanking (consistent system of cause and effect for their own good). The result of the new one size fits all to encourage the hard children to be spoiled. This has been a rise in violence and gangs and other perverse behavior. The current social costs, dueot the new one size fits all is now huge.

 

[yaracuy]

.

I think to some degree society is spoiled and like a child not forced to clean her room, we're now in a mess. Everyone is looking to the government to come in a clean the room. But, the government is some old drunk shit who spoiled the child to begin with.



The old intellectual teaching of Dr. Spak screwed the present society , even I listened to that jerk and messed up one of my boys, I should have used the same belt that my father used on me.

 

[billvon]

If the child's room is dirty the child must put up living in their own mess. If the parents keep their room clean and enjoy that, the child will eventually clean their room without prompting.

From direct experience that does not work at all. Children will do as little work as possible to achieve what they desire.

"Do as I say, not as I do" does NOT work.

Nor does "I sure hope they do what I do." Hoping is not a good method of parenting (or governing, for that matter.) There need to be consequences for bad decisions, and those consequences should be draconian enough (i.e. loss of a desired privilege) to teach while not being so draconian (i.e. being crippled) that the person can not recover.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

Some of your kids need a good ass whipping . Some of you might need a good ass whipping . Me children don't . Teach your children well your fathers hell will slowly go by . I don't beat My kids . I slapped one of me step daughters one time . She was a Juvenal delinquent . Hard to handle . She was cutting class on a regular bases before we found out and we had a confrontation . I slapped here she ran out and didn't come back for 4 hours. She stopped cutting school . but she also told the school her mean ass step father slapped her . I got the call and they asked Me if I slapped her . I said " Damn straight I slapped her . They let it go , with a stern warning to Me " Don't do that "
It was the only time I have disciplined that way . She had other issues we worked through but in the end it came out why she was of a delinquent mind set . Her father was molesting here from a very young age . So then started zoo time with the legal system . He was not prosecuted until she was about 19. Should I have just killed him were he stood and saved the tax payer dollars ? Some of you Mothers might have .

 

[visceral_instinct]

"Forcing" a child to do anything is a poor idea. If parents do not put up barriers between themselves and their child, the child will look to them for advice and will emulate their values and thinking. If the child's room is dirty the child must put up living in their own mess. If the parents keep their room clean and enjoy that, the child will eventually clean their room without prompting.

"Do as I say, not as I do" does NOT work.

"The rod" referenced in the xtian bible is actually a shepard's staff. The shepard does not hit the sheep with the staff. Rather, he merely touches the lead sheep on the side to guide them where he wishes them to go. The term "spare the rod and spoil the child" means that good parents guide their children into a lifestyle choice that favours their success in this life. It does NOT mean to beat or otherwise abuse children.

Yeah, the government is broken and needs fixing, but over-simplistic drastic changes are unlikely to make things any better. Such could well make things worse, in fact.

The problems that we face are very complex and the whole world economy is going to have to change in many ways if we are to survive.

Yes, the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights are a very good base, but no, they do not need editing or expansion at this time.

Thank you.

I've never seen spanking or hitting as anything other than assault, as well as a pile of hypocrisy.

 

[jmpet]

I don't quite know the point of this thread- can the OP clarify?

 

[Michael]

Thank you.

I've never seen spanking or hitting as anything other than assault, as well as a pile of hypocrisy.

I don't know if that is true or not. I was never spanked as as child, I never spanked any child, and I turned out fine. Whether this is the best method for all children, is hard to say.

 

[jmpet]

Feel free to be ignored then-

 

[chimpkin]

I don't know if that is true or not. I was never spanked as as child, I never spanked any child, and I turned out fine. Whether this is the best method for all children, is hard to say.

I got slapped and screamed at, and I remember hating myself and wishing I was dead after a slap and verbal-abuse session as early as six.

I forget what I hadn't done right enough, and probably did it again...in fact I became convinced I couldn't do anything right and was going to get slapped and screamed at because I was just a vile person anyway so I might as well just go away in my head.

I got very good at going away in my head to where I could not feel pain and could go deaf.

But I was still not obedient, mainly because I was too spaced out to remember what they said to do.

So I would say slapping and verbally abusing your child does not achieve compliance from my own experience.

 

[billvon]

So I would say slapping and verbally abusing your child does not achieve compliance from my own experience.

Pain is the most basic teacher of all; every intelligent organism seeks behaviors that avoid pain.

That does definitely NOT mean it is the best means of achieving compliance, and indeed it is a last resort. But if the alternative is having your child die when he runs out in traffic again, it may be the best of two bad choices.

 

[chimpkin]

But if the alternative is having your child die when he runs out in traffic again, it may be the best of two bad choices.

That might be the only justifiable use of physical punishment I could see.

But I was told physical punishment becomes addictive to the parent when I took a child development class. It's an easy shortcut to achieve compliance.
Only you have to keep hitting harder because the child develops pain tolerance.

Of course, my parents weren't actually disciplining so much, they were more going off on me. There was not a sense that they were doing it to make me a better person, but that they were out of control and could really hurt me; I was terrified my dad would actually kill me one day by accident when I was little.
They were taking out their frustrations on me. They were out of control. It was extremely demoralizing and frightening...I mean just getting slapped always rocked my head sideways and I'd have this throbbing handprint for the next half-hour or so.
And I didn't realize that it wasn't my fault, so I thought I was evil.

The few times I was punched, kicked or hit by my dad were at times when he was really frustrated with work or scrapping with mom a lot. I guess he couldn't hit mom, so he hit me?

Oh, and whatever I did for them, it was never good enough. At the very least I was always told how my work and I were not good enough and what a lazy, spoiled selfish little brat I was because of something or another...so I knew I was going to get yelled at or shouted at or told I was incompetent or not good enough eventually.

 

[Michael]

I got slapped and screamed at, and I remember hating myself and wishing I was dead after a slap and verbal-abuse session as early as six.

I forget what I hadn't done right enough, and probably did it again...in fact I became convinced I couldn't do anything right and was going to get slapped and screamed at because I was just a vile person anyway so I might as well just go away in my head.

I got very good at going away in my head to where I could not feel pain and could go deaf.

But I was still not obedient, mainly because I was too spaced out to remember what they said to do.

So I would say slapping and verbally abusing your child does not achieve compliance from my own experience.

God that is awful. I was thinking if children were doing something like pushing kids in the deep end or other dangerous things we used to do.

No, that was really horrid and your parents were way out of line.

 

[Stoniphi]

"Physical punishment rewards the punisher."

It also breaks the trust that a child has in their parent. If you lose that trust, you will never get it back and your job as a parent becomes vastly more difficult. Also very much less rewarding. You WILL carry the guilt for what you have done to your own child with you for the rest of your life.

I was beat to a bloody pulp with sticks or the buckle end of a belt so often that I also became immune to pain to a great extent. Mom broke my nose twice before I turned 14, third degree burns on both hands before age 2, sexual. intellectual and emotional abuse beyond what I feel comfortable telling you here now. That abuse gave me a temper that approaches a super power when it is turned on. Learning how to control it led me to a lifetime of studying psychology and martial arts. It has not ceased to be an issue for me, I must continue to deal with it daily, am mostly successful at that.

There is NEVER a reason for a parent to strike a child - period.

I weigh 200 pounds, run 10 miles a day, hold an advanced black belt in Taekwon Do, spent many years in the ring and in power lifting. I am extremely strong, often accidentally break things inadvertently, former NRA with a carry permit and I always go armed.

...and you think that I should hit a little child with my bare hands? The same hands that I used to break through 7 inches of pine boards and slabs of concrete? Hit them with a stick or a belt? I could easily kill them if I did that, and that would ruin MY life as well as ending theirs....and this is my child, my treasure, my dearest person - yet you figure that it would be OK if I just expressed my anger and frustration by taking it out on them?

No. That is not rational or profitable.

Further - there is considerable difference between not beating a child and spoiling the child. Spoiling is a different subject.

Sorry Bill, that example is simply not real world.

 

[wynn]

Children will do as little work as possible to achieve what they desire.

Yes, when they are emotionally and intellectually neglected by their parents and caretakers.


I find it bizzare how ready adults are to believe that children are bad or even evil.

 

[wynn]

So I would say slapping and verbally abusing your child does not achieve compliance from my own experience.

There may be cultural differences, though.

In a culture where it is the norm to hit children and call them names (such as in traditional China), doing so doesn't seem to be experienced as problematic by the children and may well achieve compliance.

But in a culture where doing so is taboo or even criminal, hitting a child and calling them names works out differently.

I have experienced this myself: At home, I was never hit, and rarely called names. My classmates in kindergarden and elementary school, however, were used to being hit and called names by their parents. We were all beaten at school by teachers and verbally maligned. My classmates seemed to have recovered from it quickly, it seemed like water off the duck's back to them. While I was stuck in depressed emotions. They also seemed better able to comply with the teacher's requests than I was.

 

[visceral_instinct]

There may be cultural differences, though.

In a culture where it is the norm to hit children and call them names (such as in traditional China), doing so doesn't seem to be experienced as problematic by the children and may well achieve compliance.

But in a culture where doing so is taboo or even criminal, hitting a child and calling them names works out differently.

I have experienced this myself: At home, I was never hit, and rarely called names. My classmates in kindergarden and elementary school, however, were used to being hit and called names by their parents. We were all beaten at school by teachers and verbally maligned. My classmates seemed to have recovered from it quickly, it seemed like water off the duck's back to them. While I was stuck in depressed emotions. They also seemed better able to comply with the teacher's requests than I was.

How about a culture where we don't abuse each other at all?