So "God" doesn't hate sinners, huh??...check this out!
- Thread starter Flash
- Start date
truestory,
You still didn't answer my question. Does the Devil currently possess free will, or not? What prevents him from uttering the words, for example, like "Jesus is my Lord, and I his servant"? I mean, he wouldn't have to actually believe in it, just pronounce it!? You mean to tell me that he is free to hunt for human souls in all sorts of innovative ways, but he can't string a sequence of sounds together? It's a pretty bizarre range of restriction, wouldn't you agree?
Heck, he wouldn't even have to understand what he is saying, just produce the sequence of sounds! Or, if he can't actually utter it, he could make a recording of someone else saying it, and then lip-sync. Or, he could present a fake image of himself lipsyncing to a recording. Or he could present a recorded image of a real angel saying this stuff. Or maybe a recording of one of the devil's human servants. Heck, maybe he could just "borrow" the soul of some human who offered the service in exchange for something -- and use that to utter whatever he wants. I mean come on, he's the Devil -- he's supposed to be creative!
And then again, there's entirely too many things about this heaven/hell/God/Devil/human story you are telling us, that just plain don't make sense. For one, we come up against the issue of freedom. If the occupants of heaven are physically incapable of evil thoughts or acts (i.e. they don't even have a choice!) -- then why this life-on-earth charade? Why doesn't God just create as many infallible souls to occupy heaven as he wishes (just like he created angels?) And additionally, if with the Devil's rebellion, angels who stayed in heaven lost their free will (i.e. they can no longer choose evil) -- then what are they good for, and how are they any different from the regular souls?? And what did they do to deserve such a curtailment of freedom? And what's the point of God's maintaining such a horde of eternal yes-men? (they might as well be mirrors; I mean what does any of them do for God that a mirror wouldn't?) And why doesn't God just destroy the evil spirits; why keep them living for all eternity? I mean he created them; he can annul their existence too, can't he? How does the existence of evil benefit God?
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I am; therefore I think.
You still didn't answer my question. Does the Devil currently possess free will, or not? What prevents him from uttering the words, for example, like "Jesus is my Lord, and I his servant"? I mean, he wouldn't have to actually believe in it, just pronounce it!? You mean to tell me that he is free to hunt for human souls in all sorts of innovative ways, but he can't string a sequence of sounds together? It's a pretty bizarre range of restriction, wouldn't you agree?
Heck, he wouldn't even have to understand what he is saying, just produce the sequence of sounds! Or, if he can't actually utter it, he could make a recording of someone else saying it, and then lip-sync. Or, he could present a fake image of himself lipsyncing to a recording. Or he could present a recorded image of a real angel saying this stuff. Or maybe a recording of one of the devil's human servants. Heck, maybe he could just "borrow" the soul of some human who offered the service in exchange for something -- and use that to utter whatever he wants. I mean come on, he's the Devil -- he's supposed to be creative!
And then again, there's entirely too many things about this heaven/hell/God/Devil/human story you are telling us, that just plain don't make sense. For one, we come up against the issue of freedom. If the occupants of heaven are physically incapable of evil thoughts or acts (i.e. they don't even have a choice!) -- then why this life-on-earth charade? Why doesn't God just create as many infallible souls to occupy heaven as he wishes (just like he created angels?) And additionally, if with the Devil's rebellion, angels who stayed in heaven lost their free will (i.e. they can no longer choose evil) -- then what are they good for, and how are they any different from the regular souls?? And what did they do to deserve such a curtailment of freedom? And what's the point of God's maintaining such a horde of eternal yes-men? (they might as well be mirrors; I mean what does any of them do for God that a mirror wouldn't?) And why doesn't God just destroy the evil spirits; why keep them living for all eternity? I mean he created them; he can annul their existence too, can't he? How does the existence of evil benefit God?
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I am; therefore I think.
Flash,
Your questions (many pages ago) which we have been discussing on and off for many pages now went something like this:
Your original indication was that Jesus preached more about hell than "love." However, most recently, your comment changed in that it compared the amount of teachings about "heaven" to hell rather than "love" to hell... two different words... that is what I meant when I said despite the fact that you changed the word "love" to "heaven"...
What I have been explaining to you is this, Flash... if you actually seek the truth for yourself (as you SAY your source has recommended that you do) then you would learn for yourself that Jesus did in fact preached more about "love" than "hell."
What I know Flash, is that such a statement IS either here or there (it is either the truth or not). You are saying that you KNOW this because it is what you were "taught." What I am suggesting is that you go and find out for yourself in order to "know" The Truth.
I am sorry if what I said somehow hit a nerve, Flash. That was not my intention. I might have expressed myself better, however, if I had said.... rather than "JUST" listening to what your source is telling you, you should also try to "seek the truth for yourself."
For example: Prior to my having studied the Bible, God delivered a message about salvation through Jesus Christ to me, personally, and I "listened." Did I automatically believe in salvation through Jesus Christ because of what I was "taught" during that powerful, awesome, loving and peaceful experience? No, I did not. I did not believe until AFTER I found out that the Bible independently corroborated everything that God had told me personally.
That is what I am suggesting that you do... Not only "listen" but also "seek the truth for yourself" so that you can "know." I am not suggesting that you do anything which I have not done myself.
As it stands now, you seem to be blindly accepting something as truth based on what you have been "told" by one source. Not only is there is nothing which exists to corroborate what your source is "telling" you... To the contrary, independent evidence exists and is available to you personally, which can easily prove to you that your source is lying about the circumstances regarding the teachings of Jesus Christ.
[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 15, 2000).]
Your questions (many pages ago) which we have been discussing on and off for many pages now went something like this:
Your original indication was that Jesus preached more about hell than "love." However, most recently, your comment changed in that it compared the amount of teachings about "heaven" to hell rather than "love" to hell... two different words... that is what I meant when I said despite the fact that you changed the word "love" to "heaven"...
What I have been explaining to you is this, Flash... if you actually seek the truth for yourself (as you SAY your source has recommended that you do) then you would learn for yourself that Jesus did in fact preached more about "love" than "hell."
What I know Flash, is that such a statement IS either here or there (it is either the truth or not). You are saying that you KNOW this because it is what you were "taught." What I am suggesting is that you go and find out for yourself in order to "know" The Truth.
I am sorry if what I said somehow hit a nerve, Flash. That was not my intention. I might have expressed myself better, however, if I had said.... rather than "JUST" listening to what your source is telling you, you should also try to "seek the truth for yourself."
For example: Prior to my having studied the Bible, God delivered a message about salvation through Jesus Christ to me, personally, and I "listened." Did I automatically believe in salvation through Jesus Christ because of what I was "taught" during that powerful, awesome, loving and peaceful experience? No, I did not. I did not believe until AFTER I found out that the Bible independently corroborated everything that God had told me personally.
That is what I am suggesting that you do... Not only "listen" but also "seek the truth for yourself" so that you can "know." I am not suggesting that you do anything which I have not done myself.
As it stands now, you seem to be blindly accepting something as truth based on what you have been "told" by one source. Not only is there is nothing which exists to corroborate what your source is "telling" you... To the contrary, independent evidence exists and is available to you personally, which can easily prove to you that your source is lying about the circumstances regarding the teachings of Jesus Christ.
[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 15, 2000).]
Boris,
The devil has free-will in the absence of goodness and love. The devil has chosen evil and is free to engage in all the evil it so desires. However, the devil is also limited by the very things that brought its demise, such as pride. The devil is so prideful, for example, that it would never utter words of subservience to God. For example, as discussed previously, the devil will never admit that Jesus Christ is God. The devil wants to BE God. Pride is just one of the devil's fatal flaws.
The devil can, however, use its evil to confuse, deceive or manipulate a human into speaking in ways which you have described.
Souls in heaven have free-will in the absence of evil. They made a spiritual choice to forego evil, to separate themselves from evil for all eternity. That is our purpose in this life... to live, to learn, to grow spiritually and to use our free-will to determine our own eternal destiny. God offers the sinless kingdom as an act of love to those who "choose" to love in return (a true mutually loving relationship cannot be born through the creation of infallible souls or "robots" so to speak). Fellowship in heaven is the eternal continuance of a mutually loving relationship between man and God. Salvation is offered from God by virtue of His love for us and is accepted by those of us who love God in return and who wish to dwell in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit with God for all eternity. The acceptance or rejectance of God's great gift of salvation is a conscious decision which we make in this lifetime.
Once we choose our eternal destiny, we are free to do all the evil our hearts desire (if that is what we choose) or to live in right relationships through love to our heart's desire with God and each other (if that is what we choose).
God gives the gifts of love, eternal life and free-will so that others may share in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit if they so desire... these gifts are given through the virtue of God's love for the benefit of those that are created. These are gifts from God which we should hold precious. Whatever we do with these gifts is up to us. God created us because He loves us. We are His children. God does not destroy any soul which He has created, even those who choose not to love in return.
[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 15, 2000).]
The devil has free-will in the absence of goodness and love. The devil has chosen evil and is free to engage in all the evil it so desires. However, the devil is also limited by the very things that brought its demise, such as pride. The devil is so prideful, for example, that it would never utter words of subservience to God. For example, as discussed previously, the devil will never admit that Jesus Christ is God. The devil wants to BE God. Pride is just one of the devil's fatal flaws.
The devil can, however, use its evil to confuse, deceive or manipulate a human into speaking in ways which you have described.
Souls in heaven have free-will in the absence of evil. They made a spiritual choice to forego evil, to separate themselves from evil for all eternity. That is our purpose in this life... to live, to learn, to grow spiritually and to use our free-will to determine our own eternal destiny. God offers the sinless kingdom as an act of love to those who "choose" to love in return (a true mutually loving relationship cannot be born through the creation of infallible souls or "robots" so to speak). Fellowship in heaven is the eternal continuance of a mutually loving relationship between man and God. Salvation is offered from God by virtue of His love for us and is accepted by those of us who love God in return and who wish to dwell in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit with God for all eternity. The acceptance or rejectance of God's great gift of salvation is a conscious decision which we make in this lifetime.
Once we choose our eternal destiny, we are free to do all the evil our hearts desire (if that is what we choose) or to live in right relationships through love to our heart's desire with God and each other (if that is what we choose).
God gives the gifts of love, eternal life and free-will so that others may share in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit if they so desire... these gifts are given through the virtue of God's love for the benefit of those that are created. These are gifts from God which we should hold precious. Whatever we do with these gifts is up to us. God created us because He loves us. We are His children. God does not destroy any soul which He has created, even those who choose not to love in return.
[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 15, 2000).]
Truestory,
<CITE>
That is what I am suggesting that you do... Not only "listen" but also "seek the truth for yourself" so that you can "know." I am not suggesting that you do anything which I have not done myself.
As it stands now, you seem to be blindly accepting something as truth based on what you have been "told" by one source. Not only is there is nothing which exists to corroborate what your source is "telling" you... To the contrary, independent evidence exists and is available to you personally, which can easily prove to you that your source is lying about the circumstances regarding the teachings of Jesus Christ. </CITE>
I want to tell you something about my view of seeking.
It seems to me that your approach to seeking is to find Jesus as a main goal. And everything what is in contradiction with YOUR view of Jesus is not true. In my opinion your offer of method to find the true is just a misunderstanding.
Why I say that?
Because If you know what are you seeking, you have just find it and what you’ve already found is not a real thing – it’s just your imagination about it, because at first you assumed (based on your spiritual experience) what should be the true. The seeking in your version is not a real seeking. It’s only explanation of facts in such a way to confirm your already established view of the true.
I know that such argument sounds like a nonsense in your ears, but you must know that if you really search something, you must be ready to throw every your opinion into basket, in case your experience proof that they are not true. If you are not ready to do that or if you afraid to do that, it means that you are not seeking and it means also that everything what you have found has rather fragile basis.
So I’m asking:
DO YOU READY TO ACCEPT THAT I CAN REACH SALVATION (in universal meaning) BY FOLLOWING BUDDHA
NOT JESUS ?
Ivan
<HR>
The Ravens Are Not What They Seem
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[This message has been edited by Ivan Kruk (edited February 15, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Ivan Kruk (edited February 15, 2000).]
<CITE>
That is what I am suggesting that you do... Not only "listen" but also "seek the truth for yourself" so that you can "know." I am not suggesting that you do anything which I have not done myself.
As it stands now, you seem to be blindly accepting something as truth based on what you have been "told" by one source. Not only is there is nothing which exists to corroborate what your source is "telling" you... To the contrary, independent evidence exists and is available to you personally, which can easily prove to you that your source is lying about the circumstances regarding the teachings of Jesus Christ. </CITE>
I want to tell you something about my view of seeking.
It seems to me that your approach to seeking is to find Jesus as a main goal. And everything what is in contradiction with YOUR view of Jesus is not true. In my opinion your offer of method to find the true is just a misunderstanding.
Why I say that?
Because If you know what are you seeking, you have just find it and what you’ve already found is not a real thing – it’s just your imagination about it, because at first you assumed (based on your spiritual experience) what should be the true. The seeking in your version is not a real seeking. It’s only explanation of facts in such a way to confirm your already established view of the true.
I know that such argument sounds like a nonsense in your ears, but you must know that if you really search something, you must be ready to throw every your opinion into basket, in case your experience proof that they are not true. If you are not ready to do that or if you afraid to do that, it means that you are not seeking and it means also that everything what you have found has rather fragile basis.
So I’m asking:
DO YOU READY TO ACCEPT THAT I CAN REACH SALVATION (in universal meaning) BY FOLLOWING BUDDHA
NOT JESUS ?Ivan
<HR>
The Ravens Are Not What They Seem
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[This message has been edited by Ivan Kruk (edited February 15, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Ivan Kruk (edited February 15, 2000).]
Hey Guys,
Let's just look at this logically for a moment. I mean what answer makes the most sense here to the questions that are being posed about Satan, his ability to lie, and why he wouldn't lie about Jesus being the Son of God, God come in the flesh? And the reason that makes most sense, if you really understand how Jesus works, is that Satan would inherently discredit himself by doing so. The faith itself, through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, His Gospel, and His Word in the Bible, and the effects of the Holy Spirit, all make it so that playing both sides of the coin are not possible. See how smart God is? The answer is that Satan does have free will, but God made sure that if we sought Him through Jesus Christ, that the Word and teaching of Jesus would make it such that Satan has this choice, and only this choice. He can either claim that Jesus is God come in the flesh, and support the Word and the faith, and discredit himself, or he can discredit Jesus and the Word, and lead people away from the one true God. That's it. The two scenarios are mutually exclusive and God made it that way on purpose. It's just that most people really don't understand the faith. It's almost impossible to unless you really try, and I mean really try and pray and seek the truth with sincerety. That's not easy to do with Christianity. It tends to be a bitter pill if someone does not fully understand all aspects of it, as is often demonstrated on this forum. At one time, Satan thought it possible for him to take us away from God and for us to worship him as God; to defeat God in essence. Now, according to the Bible, that's not really an option for him anymore. I think that his delusions of grandeur, or whatever made him choose the fate he has chosen are basically over. Satan knows what's going to happen to him. He's very well aware that he has no control over it. He lost. Some people think that the war in heaven that is spoken of in the Bible between God and Satan is what destroyed the earth before Adam and Eve were ever created. So as it's explained lots of ways in the Bible, Satan really only has one motive left at this point, and that is to hurt God as much as possible before he's thrown into the pit, whatever that means. And he's not dumb, he knows God, and he knows what the one way is to hurt God the most. What is it? To lead us to reject Him. That's it. So that's all he does. And he does it in MANY different ways, even from within the Christian organized religous groups themselves, as we've talked about at length. Now does it make sense that he wouldn't incriminate himself by encouraging practice of the Christian faith? Christianity is too exclusive and all encompassing of a faith for him to use to accomplish his own purpose. Why would he do that? It doesn't make sense. I love God. See how He's always looking out for us? He's so smart.
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"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"
I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.
Let's just look at this logically for a moment. I mean what answer makes the most sense here to the questions that are being posed about Satan, his ability to lie, and why he wouldn't lie about Jesus being the Son of God, God come in the flesh? And the reason that makes most sense, if you really understand how Jesus works, is that Satan would inherently discredit himself by doing so. The faith itself, through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, His Gospel, and His Word in the Bible, and the effects of the Holy Spirit, all make it so that playing both sides of the coin are not possible. See how smart God is? The answer is that Satan does have free will, but God made sure that if we sought Him through Jesus Christ, that the Word and teaching of Jesus would make it such that Satan has this choice, and only this choice. He can either claim that Jesus is God come in the flesh, and support the Word and the faith, and discredit himself, or he can discredit Jesus and the Word, and lead people away from the one true God. That's it. The two scenarios are mutually exclusive and God made it that way on purpose. It's just that most people really don't understand the faith. It's almost impossible to unless you really try, and I mean really try and pray and seek the truth with sincerety. That's not easy to do with Christianity. It tends to be a bitter pill if someone does not fully understand all aspects of it, as is often demonstrated on this forum. At one time, Satan thought it possible for him to take us away from God and for us to worship him as God; to defeat God in essence. Now, according to the Bible, that's not really an option for him anymore. I think that his delusions of grandeur, or whatever made him choose the fate he has chosen are basically over. Satan knows what's going to happen to him. He's very well aware that he has no control over it. He lost. Some people think that the war in heaven that is spoken of in the Bible between God and Satan is what destroyed the earth before Adam and Eve were ever created. So as it's explained lots of ways in the Bible, Satan really only has one motive left at this point, and that is to hurt God as much as possible before he's thrown into the pit, whatever that means. And he's not dumb, he knows God, and he knows what the one way is to hurt God the most. What is it? To lead us to reject Him. That's it. So that's all he does. And he does it in MANY different ways, even from within the Christian organized religous groups themselves, as we've talked about at length. Now does it make sense that he wouldn't incriminate himself by encouraging practice of the Christian faith? Christianity is too exclusive and all encompassing of a faith for him to use to accomplish his own purpose. Why would he do that? It doesn't make sense. I love God. See how He's always looking out for us? He's so smart.
------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"
I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.
TS,
*sigh* Let me try to make what I said a little more clear. I apologize for not doing so the first two times.
1) Yes, you are correct in that I said that Jesus taught more about hell than he did love. THIS is what I meant about not having a documented source to prove this information to you. I also stated that this is what I have been taught..and this is what I am standing on.
2) What I do KNOW and can prove, by a source you find reliable..the Bible, is that Jesus taught more about hell than he did heaven.
Neither here nor there meaning it did not pertain to the first statment of Jesus teaching more about hell than love.
umm..perhaps you are aware that is what I meant...but, just to be safe I wanted to make it a tad bit more clear.
KNOW..to prove to you such would be what is good enough for you and that is being the bible.
You didn't hit a nerve, TS..and there is no need to apologize to me.
I am sooooo glad you said that. See, the Spirit of Truth was not found for a very long time from the known encounter with the aol's. During that period...I did seek truth. So I have done what you have suggested.
[This message has been edited by Flash (edited February 15, 2000).]
*sigh*
Let me try to make what I said a little more clear. I apologize for not doing so the first two times.1) Yes, you are correct in that I said that Jesus taught more about hell than he did love. THIS is what I meant about not having a documented source to prove this information to you. I also stated that this is what I have been taught..and this is what I am standing on.
2) What I do KNOW and can prove, by a source you find reliable..the Bible, is that Jesus taught more about hell than he did heaven.
Neither here nor there meaning it did not pertain to the first statment of Jesus teaching more about hell than love.
umm..perhaps you are aware that is what I meant...but, just to be safe I wanted to make it a tad bit more clear.
I understand what you mean, TS. I do..where I find a problem in this approach is you want me to seek this information from the bible...why I have that problem is because the entire life of Jesus is not contained in the Bible. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? I promise you, TS, I am not being a smart butt...I am only trying to explain how I feel in order for you to see where I am coming from.
When I used the word KNOW I should have explained... KNOW from the Spirit of Truth..which is good enough for me...
KNOW..to prove to you such would be what is good enough for you and that is being the bible.
You didn't hit a nerve, TS..and there is no need to apologize to me. I am sooooo glad you said that. See, the Spirit of Truth was not found for a very long time from the known encounter with the aol's. During that period...I did seek truth. So I have done what you have suggested.
Actually, two sources..the Spirit of Truth AND the aol's. However, I see what point you are trying to make... I just wished that you could experience the things I have from A to Z..then you would understand why I have no problem in doing this. I know that I know that I know what I have found is truth... I just know it.
Ummmm... by that you mean the bible? I have read the bible, TS..many many times. I have read it tons of times before I even found the Spirit of Truth. In all that time..why didn't Jesus speak to me?? Why did I not realize that he is the truth, way, and life? You can't say that I was poisoned by any teaching at that time...as I stated previously this was long before the Spirit of truth entered the picture.
[This message has been edited by Flash (edited February 15, 2000).]
Boris~
(doffing my hat) Well said! As usual, someone else can make my point better than I can. That was exactly what I was trying to say, thanks!
truestory~
Yeah, what Boris said. No, but really, you say the devil won't say something about Jesus being God...but would it have to be the devil himself? Could he not create some kind of phantasm that could do his dirty work for him?
But, I am of the mind that even if the devil is the most supremely arrogant and prideful person (fallen angel, whatever he is) ever created, he would still be able to lie his red lips off - he is after all a "god" of sorts, by your own words. Words spoken untruthfully wouldn't infringe upon this evil entities pride, I wouldn't think. Wouldn't he just be smug in his "superiority" and go ahead and gleefully pass your "flesh test", especially if he knew that by passing that test he would basically have a "get out of jail free card" from most Christians?
Basically, I am (clumsily as usual) trying to say that if there IS a "satan", and he is as evil and powerful as he is portrayed to be, I don't think a little bit of pride would stand in his way - words are merely words. If you were an evil person, don't you think you would lie about just about anything and everything, if you thought that would help you get your way? Would Satan's pride outweigh his avarice, greed and hate??? I just can't make that fit logically into my head, y'know?
(By the way, I'm so glad we're keeping this friendly. Thanks - I'm doing a little better, personally.)
(doffing my hat) Well said! As usual, someone else can make my point better than I can.
That was exactly what I was trying to say, thanks!truestory~
Yeah, what Boris said.
No, but really, you say the devil won't say something about Jesus being God...but would it have to be the devil himself? Could he not create some kind of phantasm that could do his dirty work for him? But, I am of the mind that even if the devil is the most supremely arrogant and prideful person (fallen angel, whatever he is) ever created, he would still be able to lie his red lips off - he is after all a "god" of sorts, by your own words. Words spoken untruthfully wouldn't infringe upon this evil entities pride, I wouldn't think. Wouldn't he just be smug in his "superiority" and go ahead and gleefully pass your "flesh test", especially if he knew that by passing that test he would basically have a "get out of jail free card" from most Christians?
Basically, I am (clumsily as usual) trying to say that if there IS a "satan", and he is as evil and powerful as he is portrayed to be, I don't think a little bit of pride would stand in his way - words are merely words. If you were an evil person, don't you think you would lie about just about anything and everything, if you thought that would help you get your way? Would Satan's pride outweigh his avarice, greed and hate??? I just can't make that fit logically into my head, y'know?
(By the way, I'm so glad we're keeping this friendly.
Thanks - I'm doing a little better, personally.)Choice? dillema? Bullturds!
Nothing is black and white, absolutely everything in the Universe is in a state of flux. Movement, vibration, evolution, change.
There is no such thing as heaven or hell except in a persons mind.
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"The crows are already stoned", he said.
With a look of dispassion on his sad face.
Nothing is black and white, absolutely everything in the Universe is in a state of flux. Movement, vibration, evolution, change.
There is no such thing as heaven or hell except in a persons mind.
------------------
"The crows are already stoned", he said.
With a look of dispassion on his sad face.
Ivan,
Not knowing my background, Ivan, I can understand why you might think this way. However, I did actively search for the truth for decades. During that time, although I had heard about Jesus Christ, salvation through Jesus Christ made no sense to me. It was truth which I sought. To me, looking to Jesus Christ was not a valid consideration until after I had my experience. And, to tell you the truth, it was only after I threw all of my opinions "into a basket" and let them sit for a while, was the truth revealed to me.
In response to your question:
First, let me say that I am not quite sure what you mean by the "universal meaning" of reaching salvation? I have an idea, but I'm not sure if it is what you mean...
Second, there is much that we can learn from leaders such as Buddha. There are many truths about ways to live... ways to conduct oneself in this lifetime... such matters can be learned from not only Buddha and Jesus, but also people like Ghandi, Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King, Jr., etc...
However, among all the great spiritual leaders who have ever lived, Jesus Christ was the only one who was actually our divine God in the flesh. As much as Buddha and others have to offer, following Buddha cannot put the soul in the sin-free state needed to dwell with God for all eternity in the home which He has prepared for us. The only way to be saved is to accept Jesus Christ as one's Saviour (in the sense that salvation is the washing away of sins so that the soul is in the sin-free condition which is needed to enter heaven). As many temporary benefits as might be derived from following Buddha in this temporal life, following Buddha (or simply following Jesus for that matter) can never bring the soul to the sin-free condition needed to dwell with God for all eternity. The only way for our souls to become sin-free is for us to accept God's loving gift of salvation through Jesus Christ. So, in that sense, Ivan, you cannot reach salvation by following Buddha or anyone else for that matter.
[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 15, 2000).]
Not knowing my background, Ivan, I can understand why you might think this way. However, I did actively search for the truth for decades. During that time, although I had heard about Jesus Christ, salvation through Jesus Christ made no sense to me. It was truth which I sought. To me, looking to Jesus Christ was not a valid consideration until after I had my experience. And, to tell you the truth, it was only after I threw all of my opinions "into a basket" and let them sit for a while, was the truth revealed to me.
In response to your question:
First, let me say that I am not quite sure what you mean by the "universal meaning" of reaching salvation? I have an idea, but I'm not sure if it is what you mean...
Second, there is much that we can learn from leaders such as Buddha. There are many truths about ways to live... ways to conduct oneself in this lifetime... such matters can be learned from not only Buddha and Jesus, but also people like Ghandi, Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King, Jr., etc...
However, among all the great spiritual leaders who have ever lived, Jesus Christ was the only one who was actually our divine God in the flesh. As much as Buddha and others have to offer, following Buddha cannot put the soul in the sin-free state needed to dwell with God for all eternity in the home which He has prepared for us. The only way to be saved is to accept Jesus Christ as one's Saviour (in the sense that salvation is the washing away of sins so that the soul is in the sin-free condition which is needed to enter heaven). As many temporary benefits as might be derived from following Buddha in this temporal life, following Buddha (or simply following Jesus for that matter) can never bring the soul to the sin-free condition needed to dwell with God for all eternity. The only way for our souls to become sin-free is for us to accept God's loving gift of salvation through Jesus Christ. So, in that sense, Ivan, you cannot reach salvation by following Buddha or anyone else for that matter.
[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 15, 2000).]
MoonCat,
It is my understanding that the devil has the ability to transform itself but, no matter the form, it is still the devil. I don't believe the devil is capable of creating new spirits to do its dirty work. However, the devil is capable of deceiving humans into doing its dirty work.
There's no disagreement here, MoonCat... The devil does lie his red lips off... you are right... the words spoken untruthfully about Jesus Christ do not infringe upon the devil's pride - they serve the devil's pride.
*Friendly Chuckle* A little bit of pride you say... 'Tis true that you don't know this character!
Exactly!!! The devil does lie about everything... and, the devil is full of pride... Therefore, the devil cannot tell the truth and cannot bring himself to admit that Jesus Christ is, indeed, God in the flesh.
It is my understanding that the devil has the ability to transform itself but, no matter the form, it is still the devil. I don't believe the devil is capable of creating new spirits to do its dirty work. However, the devil is capable of deceiving humans into doing its dirty work.
There's no disagreement here, MoonCat... The devil does lie his red lips off... you are right... the words spoken untruthfully about Jesus Christ do not infringe upon the devil's pride - they serve the devil's pride.
*Friendly Chuckle* A little bit of pride you say... 'Tis true that you don't know this character!
Exactly!!! The devil does lie about everything... and, the devil is full of pride... Therefore, the devil cannot tell the truth and cannot bring himself to admit that Jesus Christ is, indeed, God in the flesh.
Flash,
You are now stating that, according to the Bible, Jesus taught more about hell than heaven... So, are you now saying that you went through the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Bible and compared the amount of His teachings about heaven to the amount of His teachings about hell? Or, are you saying that you believe this only because that is what you are being told, despite the fact that it is contrary to what is actually in the Bible?
You are now stating that, according to the Bible, Jesus taught more about hell than heaven... So, are you now saying that you went through the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Bible and compared the amount of His teachings about heaven to the amount of His teachings about hell? Or, are you saying that you believe this only because that is what you are being told, despite the fact that it is contrary to what is actually in the Bible?
Truestory,
If you see the way to salvation only by Jesus, there is no sense to explain he term "universal salvation" because such a thing doesn't exist to you. Think about these all poor souls which had no chance to recognize Jesus words.
I think that, one of the biggest difference between us is that you can see only one way to salvation and I can see many ways.
Ivan
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If you see the way to salvation only by Jesus, there is no sense to explain he term "universal salvation" because such a thing doesn't exist to you. Think about these all poor souls which had no chance to recognize Jesus words.
I think that, one of the biggest difference between us is that you can see only one way to salvation and I can see many ways.
Ivan
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TS,
The dilemma is that, according to your beliefs, I can only choose between living someone else's limited concept of "right relationships with God and each other" (which, as far as I can tell, is something like being in church 24/7, kissing the butt of your "one true God") or burning in hell for all of eternity. That simply isn't what I would call a choice - it's a dilemma because neither "choice" is terribly attractive to me. Either way would seem like hell, especially considering it's for all of eternity!
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www.indigenousrocks.com
The dilemma is that, according to your beliefs, I can only choose between living someone else's limited concept of "right relationships with God and each other" (which, as far as I can tell, is something like being in church 24/7, kissing the butt of your "one true God") or burning in hell for all of eternity. That simply isn't what I would call a choice - it's a dilemma because neither "choice" is terribly attractive to me. Either way would seem like hell, especially considering it's for all of eternity!
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www.indigenousrocks.com
Ivan,
We are here to share. If "universal salvation" exists for you in a different way than I see it, then I (and I'm sure some others on this board) would truly be interested in hearing what it means to you.
As far as the souls who do not receive God's message of salvation through Jesus Christ, although they are not saved, it is my understanding that they don't know the difference. They dwell in a natural state of happiness but separated from God.
[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 15, 2000).]
We are here to share. If "universal salvation" exists for you in a different way than I see it, then I (and I'm sure some others on this board) would truly be interested in hearing what it means to you.
As far as the souls who do not receive God's message of salvation through Jesus Christ, although they are not saved, it is my understanding that they don't know the difference. They dwell in a natural state of happiness but separated from God.
[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 15, 2000).]
Searcher,
Other than the absence of evil, what do you find limiting about living in right relationships through love?
Believe me, salvation has nothing to do with going to church at all. Salvation also has nothing to do with kissing anyone's butt. It is about living eternally in mutually loving relationships in the absence of evil.
Other than the absence of evil, what do you find limiting about living in right relationships through love?
Believe me, salvation has nothing to do with going to church at all. Salvation also has nothing to do with kissing anyone's butt. It is about living eternally in mutually loving relationships in the absence of evil.
TS,
So it's all about kissing his butt here on earth, praising his name, worshipping and glorifying him every waking moment of your life here on this earth, but when you finally make it to heaven - all of that suddenly stops? Sorry, I don't buy it. There's definitely something fishy going on here.
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www.indigenousrocks.com
So it's all about kissing his butt here on earth, praising his name, worshipping and glorifying him every waking moment of your life here on this earth, but when you finally make it to heaven - all of that suddenly stops? Sorry, I don't buy it. There's definitely something fishy going on here.
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www.indigenousrocks.com