Skeptics have already made their minds up about UAPs

So, this race have to time their evolution correctly, be smart, travel and detect at the same time as us AND be close by.
By close I mean not having to spend 100,000 years in stasis.
The guys who managed to do it would not get here and crash in the desert OR make a piss poor job of making themselves invisible.
Just my view.

Mine, too. And close would have to be very close in terms of detection of civilization. The first radio waves went out in 1895, so a detection followed by a near lightspeed journey that had reached us could happen only within a sphere of 128/2 or 64 LY radius. Or much smaller, if one credits the earliest UAP sightings.

Given the limits imposed by physics I can understand why alternative hypotheses become attractive. Like a civilization way up the Kardashev scale which has saturated the galaxy with Von Neumann probes, so there is always one nearby.
 
Mine, too. And close would have to be very close in terms of detection of civilization. The first radio waves went out in 1895, so a detection followed by a near lightspeed journey that had reached us could happen only within a sphere of 128/2 or 64 LY radius. Or much smaller, if one credits the earliest UAP sightings.

Given the limits imposed by physics I can understand why alternative hypotheses become attractive. Like a civilization way up the Kardashev scale which has saturated the galaxy with Von Neumann probes, so there is always one nearby.
Light speed travel is quoted a lot. I was surprised to find out fairly recently that photons may not be massless, 10 to the minus 18 g was mentioned as a current limit regarding technology to detect such amounts.
So light speed will have engineering limits but not theoretical limits if a massive particle can travel at light speed.
However even at that speed it is about 50,000 ly to the centre of our galaxy.
We need a planet nearby in the milky way as a candidate.
Intergalactic travel is pretty much ruled out, Andromeda is 2.5 mly distant.
There is also blue light shift to consider.
The CMBR which permeates all of space would be blue shifted to potential hazardous energies, particles too if there are enough of them? Not sure of the that, passing a nearby sun emitting trillions of neutrinos at light speed could have consequences, even though neutrinos interact weakly with mass.
If there are enough of them however?

Time in stasis is a risk. A few decades travelling and when you get back family has passed on.
100 years? Every one you ever knew is dead.
1000 years? Your country has changed, civilization unrecognisable.
5 million years, a round trip to Andromeda? Your entire species has gone maybe.
 
Light speed travel is quoted a lot. I was surprised to find out fairly recently that photons may not be massless

Curious about your source. A photon is a boson, a force carrier of infinite range that can by definition only have momentum and not mass. If it had mass, it would take infinite energy to get it to c.

Anything with mass can only move at sub-c speed. This is a basic axiom of physics. Are the foundations of physics about to crumble? :smile:
 
5 million years, a round trip to Andromeda?
Steven Baxter's "The Thousand Earths".

Author 1: "My novel has a storyline so vast, it spans 10^4 light years over 10^6 years."
Author 2: "Pah! My novel has a journey that spans 10^6 light years over 10^9 years!"

Baxter: "Aww. Single-digit exponents on your distances and times. Isn't that just so quaint!" :makes cooing noises:
 
Curious about your source. A photon is a boson, a force carrier of infinite range that can by definition only have momentum and not mass. If it had mass, it would take infinite energy to get it to c.

Anything with mass can only move at sub-c speed. This is a basic axiom of physics. Are the foundations of physics about to crumble? :smile:
Yes I was surprised too. My source was a thread on physics forums, they did not claim the photon actually had mass. They explained that current experiment had ruled out up to 10 to the minus 18 g. I will find the thread and feedback.
 
Mine, too. And close would have to be very close in terms of detection of civilization. The first radio waves went out in 1895, so a detection followed by a near lightspeed journey that had reached us could happen only within a sphere of 128/2 or 64 LY radius. Or much smaller, if one credits the earliest UAP sightings.

Given the limits imposed by physics I can understand why alternative hypotheses become attractive. Like a civilization way up the Kardashev scale which has saturated the galaxy with Von Neumann probes, so there is always one nearby.
Von Neumann probe?
That's one to look up for me
 
Yes I was surprised too. My source was a thread on physics forums, they did not claim the photon actually had mass. They explained that current experiment had ruled out up to 10 to the minus 18 g. I will find the thread and feedback.
There are lots of good theoretical reasons why photons ought to be massless. Experimental proof that they are massless is another matter. The $10^{-18}$ g thing might well be an experimentally-determined constraint on the largest (rest) mass a photon could have. That is saying that an experiment has been done that would have measured the photon mass to be non-zero if it was any larger than $10^{-18}$ g; the fact that it didn't determine the photon mass to be greater than that means that the known photon mass is still consistent with it being zero, as far as that particular experiment could determine.

For a long time, we thought that neutrinos were massless. But now we have some good evidence to suggest that they must have some mass, albeit tiny.
 
Yes I was surprised too. My source was a thread on physics forums, they did not claim the photon actually had mass. They explained that current experiment had ruled out up to 10 to the minus 18 g. I will find the thread and feedback.
Think that will be just rigour in reporting a finding. There is probably no test you could do that would show with 100% certainty that it is massless. The most they could say is their findings are consistent with it being massless, as it has to be if current theories are sound of course.
 
There are lots of good theoretical reasons why photons ought to be massless. Experimental proof that they are massless is another matter. The $10^{-18}$ g thing might well be an experimentally-determined constraint on the largest (rest) mass a photon could have. That is saying that an experiment has been done that would have measured the photon mass to be non-zero if it was any larger than $10^{-18}$ g; the fact that it didn't determine the photon mass to be greater than that means that the known photon mass is still consistent with it being zero, as far as that particular experiment could determine.

For a long time, we thought that neutrinos were massless. But now we have some good evidence to suggest that they must have some mass, albeit tiny.
I messed up the units, it is a particle so it is in eV. Anyway after a quick search, I found this discussion.

An article with a link to a paper https://galileospendulum.org/2013/07/26/what-if-photons-actually-have-mass/

https://arxiv.org/abs/0809.1003

From the article

"As we push to ever more sensitive tests, we’ll either find what that mass is, or increase our confidence that photons are probably massless. Even if we’re conservative in our upper limits, any deviation from the behavior we expect from massless photons is incredibly small. Yet, it’s still not good enough. We want to know if photons are truly massless, and that’s a very hard question to answer."

But goes on to say

"...based every experiment both in his time and ours. We don’t see any deviation from the basic laws of electromagnetism that would suggest a massive photon, and the speed of light does seem to be a universal speed limit."

They also factor in a small mass to see how it would affect the Yukawa force law (I had to look that up)
"If photons have mass, the Yukawa force law between two electric charges q and Q separated by a distance r iswhereincludes the photon mass mγ, the speed of light c, and Planck’s constant ħ. This equation corresponds exactly to the ordinary Coulomb force lawwhen the photon mass is zero. However, even for small photon mass, these equations will nearly be the same, since a small factor of μ in the Yukawa force law will hardly make any difference experimentally."

That is just one example though, probably many more where the different is significant.
 
No..I just don't believe anyone or any field of study can declare a monopoly on rationality or thinking by calling it "critical". There are all sorts of methods of thinking and logic and analysis that are used in different fields of study.
There are plenty of places where you could look up "critical thinking" to find out what people mean by it, if you actually wanted to know. But you'd rather blunder around in the dark with your assumptions and your imaginings, wouldn't you?

All serious fields of study use critical thinking. It's an important feature that distinguishes serious fields of study from things like woo.
Bragging that you somehow have the true way of thinking that always leads to the truth is absurd.
It's not so much that critical thinking automatically leads to truth. It does, however, typically lead away from falsehood, and it provides important guidelines for telling the difference between truth and falsehood.
Everybody thinks differently, and there is no such thing as the one true way of thinking.
You are correct. There is, for example, rational thought and irrational thought. Both forms are, technically, thought.
That is unless you are proposing some sort of cult brainwashing technique.
Critical thinking provides protection agaisnt cult brainwashing techniques. You should learn what it is and try it for yourself. You might be surprised.
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Meanwhile: are you going to apologise to me for making the false claim that I have censored you? Or not?
 
All serious fields of study use critical thinking. It's an important feature that distinguishes serious fields of study from things like woo.
That sounds like a good basis for some maxims.

Critical thinking is that which can distinguish rational ideas from woo.

Woo is that which is settled upon when critical thinking is abandoned.
 
Yazata:
What interests me the most in these discussions are the boundary issues: What is the distinction between science and not-science? If it's true that "pseudo-science" isn't "science", then why is that the case? If we are supposed to reject truth claims that seem to us to be unscientific, why should we do that?
Much has been written on the distinctions between science and not-science. Probably hundreds of full-length books, by this time, not to mention all the scholarly articles and expositions of the differences that you can find around the interwebs.

Science tends to be based on reproducible data, particularly from experiments or other observations. Science tends to rely on objective facts rather than subjective opinions. Importantly, real science always includes clear statements - and in many cases calculations - that clearly define the limits of the claims being made, often quantitatively, along with quantified levels of confidence that the claimed results are correct. In science, hypotheses and speculations are clearly identified as such, ideally, and are distinguished from "hard data" collected empirically. Science also has built-in error-correcting mechanisms. Results that are not reproducible are typically not accepted as part of science, for example. Claims must, in principle, be falsifiable to be considered scientific. Science demands both self-consistency in theory and consistency between theory and experiment/observation.

These features are largely absent in pseudosciences. Pseudoscientific claims are often presented in such a way as to make them superficially appear to be like scientific claims, but lacking all of the rigor and error-checking and reproducibility that goes on in science. (That's why it's called "pseudoscience" - it's something that looks a bit like science, to people who aren't familiar with how to tell the difference, but it is just pretending to be scientific.)

It's not that we are supposed to reject claism that "seem to us to be unscientific". We are supposed to reject claims that are unscientific. That's an important difference, right there. If you can't tell whether a claim is scientific or not, it would pay you to be very cautious about the claim. Perhaps consult a scientific expert, who will probably be able to tell you whether the claim has the required rigor and systematics to be considered scientific.
And where would that leave things like ethics that most "skeptics" and atheists still want to embrace?
You seem to be assuming that ethical claims are "truth claims". There is no consensus on that question among philosophers.

If we say something like "It is wrong to steal", is that a truth claim? If so, what truth is it actually asserting? Perhaps it's merely asserting that a lot of people are of the opinion that it is wrong to steal. That is a testable truth claim.

What about a statement like "People (in general) should not steal"? Is that a truth claim? Is it true that people should not steal? If so, what makes it true?

These are all curly questions, which have very little to do with the distinction between science and pseudoscience.
Probably the best way to investigate the 'demarcation problem' is to examine problem cases.

In the UFO controversies, nobody can argue that there's no evidence, there are thousands of sighting reports.

In my opinion those are raw data to be explained. The data to be explained shouldn't just be summarily dismissed with insults and rhetorical abuse, because the whole subject is unwelcome and dismissed as "woo" by the people and/or the ideology that we happen to identify with, who already seem to have their minds made up on the matter.
You're implying your Big Lie, again. (Why?)

Literally nobody is denying that there are thousands of sighting reports. Nor is anybody denying that these reports are "raw data". The debate tends to be about (a) the level of reliability of such data; and (b) the value of such data as support for a notion like "aliens are visiting Earth".

In almost all UFO cases, the quality of the available "data" - including the sighting "reports" - is incredibly, hopelessly low. NASA has told you this. The US military has told you this. Countless skeptics have told you this. Yet you want us to think you believe that that 100 doubtful anecdotes somehow add up to good support for aliens? I don't think you believe that, Yazata.
This raises the additional issue of what "explain" means. What are we doing when we 'explain' something?
This raises the additional issue of what "means" means. What are we doing when we talking about "meaning"?

How far do you think we need to go down these largely-irrelevant rabbitholes of yours, Yazata, before we conclude that UFO evidence is mostly pretty shoddy?
 
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(continued...)
It seems to me that a big part of what an explanation does is reduce the unknown to the known. So arguably, for an explanation to be successful, it will have to be capable of restating the unknown in terms of concepts that are already possessed and accepted.
You are arguing, in effect, that it's impossible for us to ever discover anything new in the world. Clearly, that is not the case.

Besides, we already have "known" concepts of "alien" and "alien life" and "alien spaceship". We know what sorts of characteristics we might reasonably expect those things to have. An alien spaceship will need to fly. It will need to use energy to fly, somehow. It will need to be able to travel in space. It will need to be able to be guided to where the aliens want it to go, somehow. etc. etc.

There was a time when x-rays were undiscovered and unknown - only 100 years or so ago. Some people might have had fantasies of being able to see inside a person's body without breaking the skin, but those were just fantasies, reliant on unknown magic. And then, almost by accident, x-rays were discovered. Why do we now believe in x-rays? First and foremost, we believe in them because certain observations are explained by postulating the existence of those "invisible rays". x-rays are scientific because we can generate them in reliable, repeatable ways. We can detect them in reliable, repeatable ways. They behave in reliable, repeatable ways. We can do reliable, repeatable experiments with them. Everybody agrees on how x-rays behave (in many sets of documented circumstances and under many different sets of documented conditions).

Did our explanation of x-rays "restate the unknown in terms of concepts already possessed and accepted"? In part, certainly: we wouldn't have called them "rays" if we didn't have a prior concept of a "ray", for example. However, initial hypotheses about x-rays were many and varied. There was no consensus, initially, on what x-rays were, exactly. These days, such a consensus does exist. It relies on some "prior" concepts, as any explanation must, but also on concepts that were completely unknown at the time x-rays were first observed.

So, it is not true to assert that science only deals in concepts that are "already possessed and accepted". Concepts become possessed and accepted in science because they work and because they are consistent with everything else that science knows about our world. Science is a self-consistent body of knowledge. Certainly it has its core assumptions and axioms, just like every other kind of knowledge. That is not a flaw or a failure.
On one hand that's inevitable, since we can't comprehend things unless we already possess the concepts with which to comprehend them.
Not true. See, for example, x-rays. There was a time in the not-so-distant past when they were not comprehended. Now they are very well comprehended (in the corpus of human knowledge in general - not so much by particular non-expert individuals).
The growth of our knowledge is a boot-strap process: we have no choice but to procede from where we are currently at.
Can you suggest any practical alternative?
But on the other hand the so-called "pessimistic induction" seem to be a pretty strong argument against the idea that objective reality must necessarily conform to our current beliefs and concepts.
Who is making the claim that objective reality must conform to our beliefs? Don't you have that backwards? I think our current beliefs should conform with reality, as far as possible. Don't you?
Of course it's possible to be more speculative in our explanations, reducing the unknown instead to hypothetical possibilities. An open-minded freedom to hypothesize expands the conceptual space from which possible explanations might come. That's often how it works, and searching for evidence to 'confirm' (another can-of-worms there) these speculative hypotheses seems to be one of the major ways that knowledge grows. It's the essence of both trial-and-error and the so-called "scientific method".
See, for example, x-rays.
But isn't the idea that UFOs are vehicles created by space aliens exactly that? A speculative explanatory hypothesis?
Yes. There's nothing wrong with the mere hypothesis.
So why all the insults, sarcasm and bullying towards anyone that proposes it?
I think you'll find that criticism tends to be directed at those who claim that the hypothesis is certain, very likely, or more-probable than not, based on shoddy evidence.

You might like to ask yourself why somebody like MR gets so upset every time somebody suggests that today's favorite UFO sighting might be the planet Venus. That's a speculative explanatory hypothesis, too - and a far more likely one than the alien spaceship one.
Presumably, there's some additional criterion at play here that determines what is and isn't an acceptable speculative hypothesis. So what is it?
There isn't one. All speculative hypotheses are fair game. We decide between them by critically reviewing the evidence for and against each of them. If there is insufficient evidence for any particular hypothesis, we should be careful not to make exaggerated claims that the hypothesis must be true.

Don't you agree?
As always, my own tendency in these matters is to adopt an attitude of friendly, curious agnosticism.
Great! Just make sure that mind of yours is not so open that you let your brains fall out.
If we want to procede scientifically, we should be emphasizing the issue of what kind of additional information do we need to make a better determination about what these things are. Which is precisely what NASA was doing this summer.
You'll see no argument from me on that. It's only people like MR who believe they already have all the information they need to make a positive ID on every UFO.
I welcome free expression of all hypotheses in the 'fringe' fora, although I am unlikely to personally accept many of them as plausible if they contradict my own beliefs about how reality is. Ghosts might fit that description.
I reject ghosts (at present) because there is no convincing evidence that they exist - just like alien spaceships visiting Earth. That has nothing to do with any special bias against spirits of the dead. I am willing to revise any opinions I might have about the existence of a ghostly afterlife just as soon as you present me with convincing evidence that such a thing is real.
But the fact that I don't believe in spiritual survival of death doesn't mean that I summarily dismiss reports of uncanny apparitions.
Nobody does. Well, okay, some people do. But, on the other side of the coin, some people think every shadow is a spirit. I recognise that you and I don't fall into those categories of unreasonable belief - or unreasonable dismissal. You are yet to recognise this - or are yet to admit that you recognise this. Instead, you prefer to tell your Big Lie. Why?
It certainly doesn't mean that I will try to shout down those who argue for ghost sightings with insult and invective.
Who has been shouted down? Can you give any examples of such a thing happening on sciforums, for instance?

Has MR, for example, been deterred from posting daily about UFOs?

What I wonder is: why do you think you need to imagine that skeptics are bad people, while giving woo peddlars, liars and charlatans a free pass?
 
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Science also has built-in error-correcting mechanisms. Results that are not reproducible are typically not accepted as part of science, for example. Claims must, in principle, be falsifiable to be considered scientific

The failure to accept the Popperian standard of falsifiability is one of the big red flags of pseudoscience. I often see a true believer fall back on "well you can't prove this is wrong, can you?" And too often they don't grasp why their fallback has ripped the mask of science off their belief. No, I actually can't disprove the Earth is a toy, like an antfarm, given to an alien child to help it learn about planetary ecosystems and primitive sentients. Damn.

Many pseudosciences are a set of conjectures that have yet to yield a testable hypothesis. Some would even include parts of string theory or certain interpretations of quantum theory in that category.

The worst pseudosciences IMO are the ones that keep reproducing themselves in people's brains by the sheer power of autosuggestion. I'm a Virgo, so I must be analytical and detail-oriented. So once I learn that astrology woo from pop culture I will focus on those qualities in myself and magnify them as I interact with the world. Badda bing!

Some pseudosciences turn selection bias on the external world, some turn it on our internal life, our sense of who we are.

Anyway, thanks for your very lucid post on how real science works.
 
The failure to accept the Popperian standard of falsifiability is one of the big red flags of pseudoscience. I often see a true believer fall back on "well you can't prove this is wrong, can you?" And too often they don't grasp why their fallback has ripped the mask of science off their belief. No, I actually can't disprove the Earth is a toy, like an antfarm, given to an alien child to help it learn about planetary ecosystems and primitive sentients. Damn.

Many pseudosciences are a set of conjectures that have yet to yield a testable hypothesis. Some would even include parts of string theory or certain interpretations of quantum theory in that category.

The worst pseudosciences IMO are the ones that keep reproducing themselves in people's brains by the sheer power of autosuggestion. I'm a Virgo, so I must be analytical and detail-oriented. So once I learn that astrology woo from pop culture I will focus on those qualities in myself and magnify them as I interact with the world. Badda bing!

Some pseudosciences turn selection bias on the external world, some turn it on our internal life, our sense of who we are.

Anyway, thanks for your very lucid post on how real science works.
PhDemon used to say something on this which I have shamelessly adopted:

Ah yes, "Prove me wrong!", the cry of the crank down the ages. :D
 
The failure to accept the Popperian standard of falsifiability is one of the big red flags of pseudoscience. I often see a true believer fall back on "well you can't prove this is wrong, can you?" And too often they don't grasp why their fallback has ripped the mask of science off their belief. No, I actually can't disprove the Earth is a toy, like an antfarm, given to an alien child to help it learn about planetary ecosystems and primitive sentients. Damn.

Many pseudosciences are a set of conjectures that have yet to yield a testable hypothesis. Some would even include parts of string theory or certain interpretations of quantum theory in that category.

The worst pseudosciences IMO are the ones that keep reproducing themselves in people's brains by the sheer power of autosuggestion. I'm a Virgo, so I must be analytical and detail-oriented. So once I learn that astrology woo from pop culture I will focus on those qualities in myself and magnify them as I interact with the world. Badda bing!

Some pseudosciences turn selection bias on the external world, some turn it on our internal life, our sense of who we are.

Anyway, thanks for your very lucid post on how real science works.
Good post sir, I hope you stick around.
 
The below exhibits a spirit of inclusiveness, in that it indirectly suggests or inspires expanding the designation of militant[1] skeptics or "skeptical activity" to embrace those with a pre-existing preference to reject proposals, evaluations, and evidence for a UAP being of more ordinary provenance or non-other-worldly in origin.

In the interests of social justice advancement, this is something to be cognizant of in the future -- of avoiding myopic focus on a single ideological population group to plug into the conceptual placeholder of whatever label is used for addressing "motivated skepticism" (whether legit or erroneously projected). (FOOTNOTE: [1] Seems pretty militant to me, anyway, if they're "attacking" committee members.) ;)
- - - - - - - - - -

NASA holds its first public meeting on UFOs (4+ months ago)
https://www.wcnc.com/article/news/n...ects/507-306e9d3b-4a3d-4340-8b5d-12211939d306

EXCERPT: “I want to emphasize this loud and proud: There is absolutely no convincing evidence for extraterrestrial life associated with” unidentified objects, NASA's Dan Evans said after the meeting.

Still, hundreds of questions from the public that poured in ahead of time were skeptical and veered into conspiracy theories.

NASA launched the study to probe what it calls UAPs — short for unexplained anomalous phenomena — in the sky, in space or under the sea.

Optical illusions can explain some of this, said Kelly, a former Navy fighter pilot. He recalled a Tomcat flight off Virginia Beach years ago during which his radar intercept officer in the back seat was convinced they’d flown past a UFO.

“It turns out it was Bart Simpson, a balloon,” Kelly said. “And in my experience, the sensors kind of have the same issues as the people’s eyeballs.”

Evans pointed out that the livestream of the meeting led to considerable trolling. That comes on top of “online abuse" directed toward several committee members.

Harassment detracts from the scientific process and reinforces the stigma surrounding the topic, said Evans, adding that NASA security is dealing with it...
(MORE - missing details)

video link --> NASA debunks UFOs seen in new video
 
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Optical illusions can explain some of this, said Kelly, a former Navy fighter pilot. He recalled a Tomcat flight off Virginia Beach years ago during which his radar intercept officer in the back seat was convinced they’d flown past a UFO.

“It turns out it was Bart Simpson, a balloon,” Kelly said. “And in my experience, the sensors kind of have the same issues as the people’s eyeballs.”
Yes, I've drawn attention to this before.

It puts the final nail in the coffin of the enthusiasts' frequent objections that military pilots are somehow too well trained in observation and identification to make such errors.
 
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