Show Me How The Big Bang Theory Is Not A Leap Of Faith

You do that by misinterpreting, ignorance, lying, and being a brainwashed, illiterate young earth creationist.
I concur but it is worth noting something. Ad homs and flaming are not allowed on this site and I agree with that rule.
With this poster though it is very easy to push that rule a little since every post that falls from his fingers is an attempt to feign interest, to digress, to deflect, to cite scripture and science without any understanding whatsoever and of course lie.

What baffles me is that when I was a Christian I would not have lied like this, multiple times, to multiple people continually in bad faith. Is this what creationism does to people?
 
YEC views are considered pseudoscience by the overwhelming majority of scientists, as they contradict data from geology, astronomy, and biology ... radiometric dating, the speed of light, and fossil records.
Not to mention

Cosmology
Astrophysics
Astronomy (stellar evolution, galactic archaeology)
Planetary science
Astrobiology
Helioseismology
Geochronology
Impact crater studies
Exoplanet formation science
Stellar nucleosynthesis research
Geology (historical geology)
Paleogeography
Stratigraphy
Sedimentology
Geomorphology (landform evolution)
Paleoclimatology
Geophysics (for past tectonics)
Volcanology (eruption histories)
Glaciology (ice-core history)
Speleology (cave sediments and climate signals)
Paleohydrology
Paleoceanography
Paleoseismology
Petrology (igneous history, metamorphic history)
Paleontology
Paleoanthropology
Paleobotany
Paleozoology
Paleomicrobiology
Evolutionary biology
Phylogenetics
Comparative anatomy
Molecular evolution
Biogeography (historical)
Population genetics
Zooarchaeology
Dendrochronology (tree-ring history)
Palynology (pollen analysis)
Isotope ecology
Archaeology (all subfields: prehistoric, classical, underwater, etc.)
Anthropology (physical/biological & cultural)
Ethnoarchaeology
Historical linguistics
Philology
Epigraphy
Paleography
Numismatics
Ceramic analysis
Bioarchaeology
Forensic anthropology (past cases and historical remains)
Osteoarchaeology
Archaeobotany
Archaeogenetics
Geoarchaeology
Landscape archaeology
Paleoethnobotany
Archaeometallurgy
Archaeometric dating (radiocarbon, luminescence, etc.)
Historical Sciences
History (ancient, medieval, early modern, etc.)
Historiography
Historical geography
Historical demography
Historical ecology
Environmental history
Art history
Legal history
Economic history
Maritime history
Genealogy
Codicology (study of historical manuscripts as objects)
Chronology studies
Ice-core science
Speleothem analysis
Lake-sediment core science
Marine sediment core science
Varve chronology
Tephrochronology
Geochemical proxy analysis
Stable isotope geochemistry

These are all well-established scientific disciplines, each with independent lines of evidence that all support the same theory of an old Earth - some, mere human history and pre-history - most of them ancient and deep pre-history-many of them pre-Earth.

We have nothing to prove, since the evidence is preponderous. The onus is on you, since this is your assertion, that each and every one of these on its own is, as you call it, "a leap of faith". You haven't even addressed 90% of them. You cannot just handwave them away as "I don't believe them because Jesus told me not to".

Until and unless you have done that, your assertion has not been made. You've got your work cut out for you, and you've squandered 900+ posts to do so.
 
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I concur but it is worth noting something. Ad homs and flaming are not allowed on this site and I agree with that rule.
With this poster though it is very easy to push that rule a little since every post that falls from his fingers is an attempt to feign interest, to digress, to deflect, to cite scripture and science without any understanding whatsoever and of course lie.

What baffles me is that when I was a Christian I would not have lied like this, multiple times, to multiple people continually in bad faith. Is this what creationism does to people?
Went to a Catholic school all my young life also. I was even an Altar Boy! That is until I was caught with one other, behind the Altar sampling the Altar wine! Got a kick up my arse for the trouble and sacked from that orginization!
 
Went to a Catholic school all my young life also. I was even an Altar Boy! That is until I was caught with one other, behind the Altar sampling the Altar wine! Got a kick up my arse for the trouble and sacked from that orginization!
Suspicion confirmed. Welcome back. :D

And yeah not only raised a Catholic, but was also an Altar boy, but got the sack after being caught drinking the altar wine.
 
. You cannot just handwave them away as "I don't believe them because Jesus told me not to".
Wanna bet! He seems to have me on ignore anyway. Perhaps he knew me in a previous life! ;) I mean to begin with, he has even "handwaved" away the definition of a scientific theory, based on his misguided claim we did not directly observe the big bang, as proof of his claim it is therefor based on faith.
 
Kermos:

You should not keep posting material that has been soundly debunked already in this thread, when you have not responded to the specific arguments that debunked your nonsense.

I appreciate that, for the most part, you are months behind the rest of us here, as far as understanding where the discussion has progressed to.

Rather than repeating yourself, uselessly, please make an effort to catch up. Thanks!

For the record:
And, the scientific method applied to red-shift shows the circular logic of red-shift as well as showing red-shift is just red-spectral (post #469).
I debunked this claim in some detail, above.
The lowest to highest rungs of your star bible's cosmic ladder are demonstrably a leap of faith/belief because:
1. The Zenith Model illuminates temporal limitations, too titanic a timespan, for your ladder to the Big Bang (see post #111 for a detailed explanation).
These "temporal limitations" you speak of are imaginary. Physicists can often infer what happened in the past, based on evidence collected in the present. So can historians. So can archaeologists.
2. The Episcopic Model exposes spatial limitations, too vast a visage, for your ladder to the Big Bang (see post #113 for a detailed explanation).
There are no "spatial limitations". We can see light today that started on its journey towards us approximately 13.8 billion years ago. Therefore, we can see what was happening 13.8 billion years ago a very long way away from us (at least 13.8 billion light years).
3.Star bible seer Henrietta Swan Leavitt had visions of Cepheid star luminosity at the star without distance, without visiting the star (see items 1 & 2)
She didn't need to visit a distant star. Astronomers can see stars through telescopes. In fact, even you can see stars that are light years away from Earth, with your naked eye.
4. Cepheid star is an invalid reference point for parallax (see post #155 for a detailed explanation).
Incorrect. There are plenty of Cepheid variable stars that are close enough to the Earth to allow us to determine their distances using the parallax method. One example is the star Polaris (the pole star).

5.The red-shift is truly just red-spectral, so you don't science (know) whether galaxies are approaching or receding (see post #852 for a detailed explanation).
Incorrect. When we look at red-shifted spectral light, we see shifting of characteristic atomic spectral lines. That would not be the case if we were merely looking at light emitted by red light sources.

The Doppler effect is a well-understood phenomenon that allows us to determine the speed of a light source and whether it is moving towards or away from us, based on the measured Doppler shift.
6. The red-shift is truly just red-spectral, so red-shift is an invalid factor for galaxy velocity (see post #699 for a detailed explanation).
Incorrect. See above.
7. The red-shift is truly just red-spectral, so red-shift is an illegal reference for galaxy distance from Earth (see post #469 for a detailed explanation).
Incorrect. Also, I note that saying something incorrect three times does nothing to fix the error you made the first time you said it.
 
Kermos:

The following several posts are replies to your posts starting with #828, above.

There's a lot of useless repetition in those posts of yours, so I hope you'll forgive me for just stepping over all the useless junk and faulty claims from you that I debunked in earlier posts to this thread.

I'm also going to skip over most of your preachy bible quotes, because those are irrelevant to this discussion we're having about science. Of course, I do bear in mind that your prime motivation for having this discussion in the first place is a misguided one, based on the indoctrination you have received from the anti-scientific creationist movement. Rather than wasting more of your time on creationist lies, I urge you to consider looking further into the reality-based world of science. If you do, you'll ultimately feel a lot freer and less morally conflicted, I assure you. I think you can eventually get to point where you feel like you no longer need to tell lies for your god.

I note, too, that you have spent quite a lot of time in your recent posts once again trying to redefine English words to suit your own purposes. I'm going to ignore those tiresome attempts to pretend you can't understand English, unless you introduce something that I haven't addressed previously.

I also see that you have continued to misquote me by substituting your own words for mine when you quote me. I previously asked you nicely to stop doing that. From now on, I'm afraid that I'm going to have to demand that you quote me accurately, without any word substitutions. If it turns out that, in this regard, you need "official" encouragement, we can go down that road on this matter, too.

You are unable to abide the logic, linguistics, and veracity of my writings, so you unscientifically skip relevant information.

I debunked your red-shift error in the following to which I referred you, but you left unscientifically skipped:

Pinball1970:

Thanks for drawing those papers to my attention. Very useful

Kermos:

Here's the more recent story of your mystery quasar/galaxy pair, which you claim destroys the Big Bang Theory.

Background - Stephan's Quintet​


The Galaxy mentioned in the paper you keep citing is NGC 7319.

That galaxy is part of a complex group of galaxies now known as Stephan's Quintet.

As you will recall, the paper from Burbridge et al. noted the apparently discordant redshifts between two objects, one of which was the galaxy I just mentioned and the other a quasar. The paper claimed that it looked like the quasar and the galaxy might be physically interacting, which would imply that they were close to one another. But that didn't make sense given their very different redshifts. This was therefore a puzzle for astronomers.

This actually drew a lot of attention in the astronomical community. It was not ignored or swept under the rug, which I mention in case you want to imagine a conspiracy of evil scientists out to suppress your god, or some nonsense of that kind.

Anyway, the authors suggested that the quasar's redshift might be caused by something other than cosmological redshift, which would make its redshift unrelated to its distance from us. This became one of the most-cited examples of "non-velocity" redshifts. (Others were found elsewhere.)

In the past 20 years, therefore, a number of astronomers revisited this system, looking at it in more detail with more powerful instruments. These have included high-resolution studies of Stephan's Quintet using the Chandra observatory and the Hubble Space Telescope, along with other multi-wavelength studies.

One important paper on this was cited by Pinball1970, above. It is the paper by Trinchieri et al, 2003, titled "Chandra Observations of Stephan's Quintet".

Modern analysis of Stephan's Quintet​

The overwhelming consensus among astronomers today finds that:
  • The quasar that appears to be apparently "in" NGC 7319 is, in fact, a background object that is much further away and not physically connected to NGC 7319 in any way.
  • The alignment of the quasar with the centre of NGC 7319 is a chance alignment - a coincidence.
  • All of the galaxies in Stephan's Quintet have redshifts that are expected for associated galaxies at about the same distance from Earth, except for one galaxy, NGC 7320.
  • The galaxy NGC 7320 is actually closer to Earth than the other galaxies in Stephan's Quintet. It is not physically connected in any way to the other galaxies "in" the Quintet.

Why wasn't the "problem" sorted out sooner?​

Stephan's Quintet is a complex system. Its structure shows tidal tails, shocks and overlapping galactic structures, all of which can make accidental alignments look like physical associations.

Conclusion​

The modern data on Stephan's Quintet is definitive. There is no doubt among astronomers in 2026 that the quasar that looks like it is "in" NGC 7319 is, in fact, in the distant background, with the apparent association between the galaxy and quasar being due to a coincidental alignment along the line of sight.

Implications for the Big Bang Theory​

What we see in Stephan's Quintet is entirely consistent with the cosmological redshift - distance relationship given by the Hubble Law and predicted by the Big Bang Theory. These observations, therefore, add a bit more evidence that tends to support the Big Bang theory and the associated physics.

The work of Ginevra Trinchieri and her colleagues under the guise provided above by you "Chandra Observations of Stephan's Quintet" with a publication year of "2003" was released 2 years before The Discovery of a High-Redshift X-Ray-Emitting QSO Very Close to the Nucleus of NGC 7319 paper by Burbidge et al in 2005, so the Trinchieri et al work does not falsify the Burbidge et al work because the Burbidge et al work did not exist at the time of the Trinchieri et al work!

In fact, the Trinchieri et al work of 2003 is a reference IN THE BURBIDGE ET AL WORK OF 2005!

Some of the Trinchieri et al work data of 2003 was incorporated by Burbidge et al work of 2005, so the Trinchieri et al work contributed to the Burbidge et al work which demonstrates the red-shift error.

Now, it's time to have fun with formulas to illustrate the above. You scientist types do enjoy expressing formulaically, do you not?

Trinchieri et al work == 23 years ago
RESULT: TRUE

Burbidge et al work == 21 years ago
RESULT: TRUE

Trinchieri et al work age > Burbidge et al work age
RESULT: TRUE

Trinchieri et al work != !(Burbidge et al work)
RESULT: TRUE

red-spectrum != red-shift
RESULT: TRUE

sizeof(Big Bang) == 0
RESULT: TRUE

If you have any trouble understanding the C language operators, then please request a tutorial from me. Now, back to clean English language.

The Trinchieri et al study can be found on your star bible's ResearchGate site, which I referred you to in post #784, even at Stephan's Quintet: The X-ray Anatomy of a Multiple Galaxy Collision; Authors: G Trinchieri, Jack W. Sulentic, Breitschwerdt Dieter, W. Pietsch; February 2003.

You guys couldn't even get the study's proper name correct, but the name you used for identifying the study is quite telling. Chandra is a Hindu god, and your Chandra idol (satellite made by man's hands) is making observations for your evolution religion.

Your "science" warped an older study as a greater validity source in 2026 by writing "There is no doubt among astronomers in 2026 that the quasar that looks like it is "in" NGC 7319 is, in fact, in the distant background, with the apparent association between the galaxy and quasar being due to a coincidental alignment along the line of sight" in the absence of citing a paper that directly addresses the Burbidge et al findings. Burbidge et al attributed the quasar inside of NGC 7319, and the 2005 paper (Burbidge) appeared while the 2003 paper (Trinchieri) was already out.

Therefore, your "One important paper" by Trinchieri et al is important to show the illogical lengths you push for your star bible's Big Bang.

Your "Here's the more recent story of your mystery quasar/galaxy pair" is the exact opposite because you cited the antique 2003 paper as compared to the recent 2005 paper which casts doubt on the antique 2003 paper, and your inversion stretches even further because it's not my "mystery quasar/galaxy pair" for it is your astronomer astrologers "mystery quasar/galaxy pair".

The Burbidge et al 2005 paper appears to have included high-resolution studies of Stephan's Quintet using the Chandra observatory and the Hubble Space Telescope, along with other multi-wavelength studies, so it looks like Burbidge et al utilized the same basis which you vaunted there, James R.

Continued to post #973
 
Please do not tell
Continued from post #971


Like I wrote in post #770 regarding Ptolemy and the Library of Alexandria, your analytical skill deficiency manifested here with Trinchieri et al 2003, again. It is no accident that you didn't properly reply to post #784 by quoting me which is now evident because your Chandra god fails you!

All that you know regarding red spectrum light is that red spectrum light arrives at Earth as outlined in post #784, but your star bible says the red spectrum light is a strange thing you call red-shift, so you preach your star bible's Big Bang.

You, like religious zealots, fight that the Burbidge et al 2005 paper dislodges your self-perceived red-shift sure foundation as wrong headed, and your belief in an error in the Burbidge et al 2005 paper depends on the Trinchieri et al 2003 paper which is illogical and circular reasoning since the Trinchieri et al 2003 paper was incorporated into the Burbidge et al 2005 paper. Your religion's star bible is self-referencing.

Your Big Bang is unscientific faith.

Your Big Bang is not scientific fact.

You failed to present a scientific paper up to your above quoted sentence in this exchange that falsifies the Burbidge et al 2005 paper in a post of your's addressed to me that uses this site's functioning alert mechanism, so the Burbidge et al paper is a paper that remains unfalsified by any other paper to this day as far as I am aware even with your attempted falsification of the Burbidge et al 2005 paper by the Trinchieri et al 2003 paper which I scientifically reversed on you as demonstrated with logic, linguistics, and veracity, above.

Accurate logic, linguistics, and veracity are the enemy of dishonest "scientists", and one skipping valid logic, linguistics, and veracity is bad debate form. I wrote with accuracy about logic, linguistics, and veracity. You now threaten "official" sanction for my continued accurate logic, linguistics, and veracity which your threat of "official" sanction is a trait outlined in the Pharmakeia Principle (post #179).

Let's see if we can find anything new from you.

There's abundant data that shows the Hubble law is correct, contrary to your repeated assertions.

Your community's Hubble law "science" is truly sorcery because your community dabbles in doppler for light waves, yet the Doppler effect relates to sound waves (see post #837 for details with the gelatin (sound waves) / bullet (light waves) example and red-shift is truly just red-spectral).

Why are you still using old figures, when I have helpfully pointed you towards the most recent estimates of H? The uncertainty range for the age of the universe is far less than 10 billion years, as you now know. It is more like about 800 million years (using the most conversative estimate), which is an improvement by at least a factor of 10 on the old data you're still dishonestly shopping around.

I'll answer that by using currently practicing graduate of UC Berkeley Professor Douglas Scott of UBC's numbers which I previously quoted to you in the post series to which you are replying in post #840 as source material for your Hubble law Hubble constant variable of H=50 & H=100 which results in a 10B y.o.u. < actual y.o.u. < 20B y.o.u. where y.o.u. is "years old universe" (see post #845 for details).

I will require you, in future posts, to refer to modern estimates of H and the age of the universe. Apparently, you can't be honest without a little encouragement from a moderator of the forum. We can certainly go down that road, if that's the way you want to roll with this discussion.

You are wrong, and I already corrected you in the prior section.

As you can see, I am rejecting your unscientific requirement.

All my explanations have been scientific. I guess you just didn't understand the science. Maybe try reviewing my previous posts. Ask questions if you're stuck.

I proved your "science" to be in error, so you threaten me with censorship on your site.

I have not mentioned the use of potions, drugs or enchantments in this thread, as you know.

You have mentioned escalated repercussions in this very post as you threaten to punish me on your site for me writing with accurate science, logic, linguistics, and veracity - of which that escalation is you exhibiting the Pharmakeia Principle (post #179).

Ironic that this was the very next thing you wrote after trying to dismiss me on the basis of an ad hominem attack you made with you "Pharmakeia principle".

I'm not impressed by your double standards, Kermos. Try to do better.

Actually, me telling you to "debate on the merit of the topic, not on the merit of the debater" makes sense because you were not debating on topic when you wrote "If you are the best linguist your god can produce, I despair for him in his lack of power and effectiveness".

But, hey, you're the moderator, for today, James R, so you confidently infract your own rules, but your time is fast approaching to meet the great mediator, He is Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5).

I note that I previously addressed these objections of yours in detail.

Do you deny that the inverse square law can be used to deduce the absolute magnitude of a star, if we know its apparent magnitude and the distance to the star?

That's a yes/no question.

We've all seen how much you struggle to answer yes/no questions. Let's see how you go with this one. You have to try to answer at least one of them.

You do not have the distance from Earth to even the nearest Cepheid star in order to use the inverse square formula as explained in the Zenith Model (post #111) and the Episcopic Model (post #113)).

You are starting at 0; in other words, your cosmic ladder low rung is missing.

Who is Chandra?

You brought up Chandra, and I explained Chandra to you back in post #852 to which I referred you at the opening of the post that you replied to yet you neglected to respond to post #852 so I included all of post #852 in the beginning of this very 2 post continuation.

You demand that I speak your ultimate truth (that I cease and desist using normal word dictionary definitions to reveal your faith-based Big Bang and no longer mention H=50 and H=100), but, I declare to you, your demand is denied based on spiritual and scientific grounds, and, now, I am jumping ahead to respond to your reply to my CMBR post. I may do some other jumping around depending on your action. You are about to show whether you are a man or a coward - a man is steadfast in the heat of battle but a cowardly tyrant hides behind the cloak of censorship. I would like to continue this debate with a response to your next post #933, but I am now watching to find out who you are.
 
Kermos:

It represents nothing of the sort.

If you look at the last of your three references, you will find the following values for the temperature:

McKellar (1941): (2.5 +0.9/-0.7) K
D.C. Hogg (1959): (3.1 +/- 1.0) K
E.A. Ohm (1961): (2.7 +/- 0.6) K
Penzias and Wilson (1965): (3.5 +/- 1.0) K

The most up-to-date (2026) value is 2.7255 +/- 0.0006 K.

Notice that ALL FIVE measurements listed above are consistent with the temperature of the CMBR being 2.7255 K.

In other words, ALL FIVE of these measurements are in agreement with one another. The data do not support the conclusion that there has been an increase (or a decrease!) in the temperature over the years.

Don't you understand what the uncertainty values (the "plus or minus" after each temperature value in the above data) actually mean, Kermos?

Let's look at this rationally, shall we?

From your supplied data from the last link of https://www.researchgate.net/public...he_1941_to_1961_CMBR_Temperature_Measurements, we find:
  • McKellar (1941): (2.5 +0.9/-0.7) K
  • D.C. Hogg (1959): (3.1 +/- 1.0) K
  • E.A. Ohm (1961): (2.7 +/- 0.6) K
  • Penzias and Wilson (1965): (3.5 +/- 1.0) K

The average formula (2.3+3.1+2.7)÷3=2.7 falls in line with your unattributed (2026) 2.7255 +/- 0.0006 K which is precariously close to the link's (2.725 +/- 0.004) K.

Notice that the 2.3 K median from McKellar must be used in the average formula, but both the 3.1 K mean fom Hogg and the 2.7 K mean from Ohm had to be used in the average formula, and the Penzias et al Nobel Prize drivers for winners Dicke et al must be excluded from the average formula altogether.

Inconsistent rules are the hallmark of your "science"; in precise terminology, your unattributed (2026) 2.7255 +/- 0.0006 K / 2.7 K is unscientific!

Do you remember the Stephen Hawking quote about astronomer astrologers, "a case of knowing the result they wanted to get, not an uncommon occurrence in science"?

Now, let's shred, or shed some light on, well, shred your mathematical ability, James R.

Set theory is fun, but set theory is destructive to your argument.

  • McKellar (1941): M = {x ∈ R | 1.8 ≤ x ≤ 3.4}
  • Penzias and Wilson (1965): P = {x ∈ R | 2.5 ≤ x ≤ 4.5}

M and P represent two mutually exclusive, independent and discreet studies.

M=P is false.

M∩P is a range of real number temperature elements that potentially one set can be greater than or lesser than the temperature in the opposing set (except for the boundaries which would be equality on one side), so M∩P elements are excluded from this evaluation because these cancel each other out. This leaves the elements represented in MΔP.

MΔP is the range of real number temperature elements that uniquely qualify as exclusively greater than or less than the temperature in the opposing set, so MΔP is included in this evaluation.

Proofs:
  • M∩P and M>P, M=3.2 and P=3.1
  • M∩P and M<P, M=3.1 and P=3.2
  • MΔP and M>P, nonexistent
  • MΔP and M<P, M=1.8 and P=4.5
  • MΔP and M<P, M=2.4 and P=3.5

The exemplary intersection (M∩P) elements of 3.1 and 3.2 sufficiently illustrate the cancelation effect of the corresponding intersection elements.

The result is M<P.

The CMBR is decreasing going backward in time according to this logic demonstrated using set theory.

You like averages, so let's use the mean temperature values to test your "The data do not support the conclusion that there has been an increase (or a decrease!) in the temperature over the years".

  • McKellar (1941): 2.5
  • Penzias and Wilson (1965): 3.5

2.5=3.5 is false.

2.5<3.5 is true.

1941<1965 is true

3.5-2 5=1.0 is true.

1965-1941=24 is true.

The five factual statements directly above show a 1.0 K increase of heat on average over a period of 2 dozen years starting in 1941 AD until 1965 AD.

A decrease in heat temperature from 1941 to 1965 is the Big Bang adherent's requirement, but it's just not there, so your CMBR is very bad evidence for your Big Bang.

Your "The data do not support the conclusion that there has been an increase (or a decrease!) in the temperature over the years" is deception as your pillar of support for your faith based Big Bang.

Do you remember writing "In the case of the big bang theory, it doesn’t just predict the expansion of the universe. It doesn’t just predict the existence of the observed cosmic microwave background radiation (which, by the way, it predicted before the CMBR was first measured)" as recorded back in post #236? Just take a look at your ALL FIVE point data list above to see the CMBR was measured before, thus you wrote nonscience.

Moreover, your own belief contradicts your own belief. You believe the CMBR has an increasing temperature travelling backward in time, but you believe "The data do not support the conclusion that there has been an increase (or a decrease!) in the temperature over the years".

The above dissection of your data shows that these are each distinctly different:
  • McKellar (1941): (2.5 +0.9/-0.7) K
  • D.C. Hogg (1959): (3.1 +/- 1.0) K
  • E.A. Ohm (1961): (2.7 +/- 0.6) K
  • Penzias and Wilson (1965): (3.5 +/- 1.0) K

McKellar (1941): (2.5 +0.9/-0.7) K is not in agreement with Penzias and Wilson (1965): (3.5 +/- 1.0) K.

Statistical consolidation of ALL FIVE points is unreasonable because reasonable doubt has been cast by the decrease of temperature going back in time thus anyone claiming an increase of temperature is a person defying the logical conclusion from the data; in other words, you cannot logically claim that there was a high heat temperature deep in the past around your Big Bang timeframe which would make the differences in ALL FIVE points statistically insignificant. The differences in ALL FIVE points are statistically significant as a function of the recorded decrease in temperature over the decades.

In other words, ALL FIVE of these measurements are in agreement with one another that the Big Bang is a leap of faith/belief.
 
There is much that you seem to ignore kermos. In my world, I call that cowardly. I would also add a little phrase my Mum would tell me as a young boy when I was caught out lying. "telling lies makes little baby Jesus cry" So why are you making little baby Jesus cry Kermos. Anyway back onto the stuff you cunningly ignore.....
(google)
The measurements by Andrew McKellar in 1941 (2.3K) and Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson in 1964 (3.5K or 3) do not invalidate the Big Bang theory. Instead, these measurements are foundational evidence for the Big Bang, representing the early detection of the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB) radiation.(WIKIPEDIA)
The minor discrepancy in the measured temperature—and the later, more precise measurement of 2.7K—did not destroy the theory; rather, it allowed scientists to refine it, confirming the universe was once hot and dense.


Key Contextual Factors
  • 1941 (McKellar): Andrew McKellar measured the rotational excitation of CN (cyanogen) molecules in interstellar space, finding a temperature of 2.3K. While he did not interpret this as a universal background, he was measuring the CMB's effects without realizing it.

  • 1964/1965 (Penzias & Wilson): While testing a satellite antenna at Bell Labs, Penzias and Wilson found a persistent 3.5K (often referred to as 3K) excess noise they couldn't explain. This noise was isotropic (equal in all directions) and was soon identified as the CMB predicted by Big Bang proponents, such as Robert Dicke.

    Why they are consistent: Both figures are remarkably close to the expected value, given the technological limitations. The modern measured value is 2.725K. The variation between 2.3K and 3.5K was not significant enough to disprove the core prediction of a "hot early universe".(wikipedia)


    Why This Confirms the Big Bang
    1. Prediction by Theory: The Big Bang theory predicts that the early, hot universe cooled as it expanded, leaving a relic "afterglow" of radiation. The CMB is that afterglow.
    2. Death of Alternatives: The discovery of the CMB, heralded by these measurements, was the definitive evidence that disproved the "Steady State" theory, which did not predict a uniform background radiation.

    3. Refinement, Not Invalidation: When Penzias and Wilson found the 3.5K excess, it was immediately interpreted as a 'hot" relic from the early universe.

      The findings of both McKellar and Penzias/Wilson actually formed a consistent picture that the universe was once in a hot, dense plasma state, consistent with the Big Bang.


      Why This Confirms the Big Bang
      :
      The Big Bang theory predicts that the early, hot universe cooled as it expanded, leaving a relic "afterglow" of radiation. The CMB is that afterglow. by these measurements, was the definitive evidence that disproved the "Steady State" theory, which did not predict a uniform background radiation.
      Refinement, Not Invalidation:When Penzias and Wilson found the 3.5K excess, it was immediately interpreted as a "hot" relic from the early universe.

      The findings of both McKellar and Penzias/Wilson actually formed a consistent picture that the universe was once in a hot, dense plasma state, consistent with the Big Bang.

      XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
      The final nail in the coffin of this dishonest lying Kermos, (who seems to have me blocked) is the fact that the self gravity of matter, (or non linearity) makes it impossible for the universe to be static. It has to be either expanding or contracting. This was (in Einstein's own words) his biggest blunder.

      The other final nail in his coffin, is that the big bang does not tell us about an initial moment or beginning of the universe. Remembering of course that the name "BIG BANG" was applied in a moment of derision by a proponent of "steady state" model, Fred Hoyle, an otherwise great astronomer. The big bang of course was simply the evolution of space and time (AS WE KNOW THEM) from a hot dense state.
      Finally to seal this coffin shut, a scientific theory is always open for possible modification, refinement, addition, re-enforcement, change or even being scrapped. Unlike religious beliefs, where adherence is compulsory under threat of eternal damnation.
      This Jesus Christ person must be turning in his grave listening/watching the lies, dishonest, and ignorant posts by one of his disciples.
 
McKellar (1941): 2.5
Penzias and Wilson (1965): 3.5
2.5=3.5 is false.
2.5<3.5 is true.
1941<1965 is true
3.5-2 5=1.0 is true.
1965-1941=24 is true.
The five factual statements directly above show a 1.0 K increase of heat on average over a period of 2 dozen years starting in 1941 AD until 1965 AD.
They do not. They show errors in measurement and interpretation from different experiments by different scientists with different equipment and different amounts and quality of data.

Suppose tree measuring has only recently become a thing we can measure.
Yesterday, I went out and measured the height of the tree in my yard using an old tape measure and some trig. I got a height 14m 6cm.
Today, I went out again, with a different tape measure and I stood in a different place and did a different form of range-finding (because I thought of some new ways). I got a height of 14m 3.5 cm.

By your argument, you would have us believe that you are so ignorant of logic as to assert that
- my observations on both days have zero margin for error (even though "the measuring of trees" is a totally new science)
- my tree actually shrunk by 2.5cm over one day, and therefore that
- the "theory of tree growth" is falsified, and that
- trees obviously shrink over time.


I do not believe you are that ignorant.


Although, another plausibility arises. AI is that ignorant. If a human agent were to provide it with bad input it is quite capable if misinterpreting a collection of disparate data points over time as if they are a trend, as opposed to, say, a scatter plot.

Are you using AI to formulate your arguments? That would explain a lot. I'd like a yes/no answer to that.
 
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Let's look at this rationally, shall we?


In other words, ALL FIVE of these measurements are in agreement with one another that the Big Bang is a leap of faith/belief.
The thread's title is nothing more then a pretentious derisive attempt to degrade a well supported, well evidenced, scientific theory. You do that by misinterpreting, ignorance, lying, and being a brainwashed, illiterate young earth creationist.
YEC views are considered pseudoscience by the overwhelming majority of scientists, as they contradict data from geology, astronomy, and biology. The scientific community maintains that evidence proves an old earth, including radiometric dating, the speed of light, and fossil records.
 
The thread's title is nothing more then a pretentious derisive attempt to degrade a well supported, well evidenced, scientific theory.
They've also got the burden of evidence backwards. It is not up to us to convince the OP of anything. It is up to them to overturn all the evidence collected so far.

I even gave them a head start with a short selection of 80 or so science fields he's going to be reading up on over the next few years to make any kind of case.
 
They've also got the burden of evidence backwards. It is not up to us to convince the OP of anything. It is up to them to overturn all the evidence collected so far.

I even gave them a head start with a short selection of 80 or so science fields he's going to be reading up on over the next few years to make any kind of case.
Bingo! But considering that Kermos has shown that he is nothing more then a extreme example of religious doctrine, denying a century of science, by means of a pretentious derisive attempt to degrade a well supported, well evidenced, scientific theory, I doubt he would even begin to accept such scientific logic. He does that by misinterpreting, ignorance, lying, and being a brainwashed, illiterate young earth creationist. Even the majority of the branches of Christianity, treat their science denying beliefs of these YEC's as nonsense.
Your short selection of the scientific fields validating the big bang model, means SFA to young Earth creationists.
 
Indeed. He completely ignored the post. As he does whenever he's backed into a corner.
And then of course we have what was related to Einstein's greatest ever blunder, (to use his own words) the fact that the self gravity of matter, (or non linearity) makes it impossible for the universe to be static. It has to be either expanding or contracting. This was (in Einstein's own words) his biggest blunder. Or the nonlinear property of gravity itself.
 
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