Should men have a say in abortion ?

[RainbowSingularity]

Fantastic Post !
the morally Bankrupt anti-abortionista's will never answer these questions
Moral Spiritual & Religious Hypocrisy is there Core Principal.

I posted this by accident in another abortion thread that is running concurrently with this one. Excuse me if I post it again here, which is really where it should go.

Here are two scenarios for our conservative friends to contemplate:

1. A man is dying of bone cancer and needs a marrow transplant. Nobody in his immediate family is a compatible donor, but there is a cousin who could donate his marrow. The cousin, however, refuses to donate some of his marrow. He says that he has had a dream that he might not survive the anesthetic applied if the procedure to extract some of his marrow is carried out. There is no medical basis to think there is any great risk to the cousin, bone marrow extractions being routine surgical procedures. It is certain that without the transplant, the cancer patient will not survive, and it is extremely unlikely that another compatible donor can be found in time to save him.

Question: would it be appropriate for the government, through legislation say, to compel the cousin in this case to undergo the procedure to donate some of his bone marrow to the cancer patient? Bear in mind that a man's life is at stake here and all life is sacred, as you tell us it is in the case of abortion.

2. A mother has a young child - 3 or 4 years old - with a heart problem. Due to a number of factors, this child can only be kept alive by physically connecting the child to the mother, so that the mother's heart can essentially act as a temporary pump for the child's blood. The child will almost certainly die if the procedure is not performed.

Question: would it be appropriate for the government, through legislation say, to compel the mother in this case to be connected to the child, so as to keep the child alive? Let us say, for the sake of argument, that the connection would need to be maintained for 9 months. Bear in mind that the child's life is at stake and all life is sacred.

Question: would it make any difference if it was the child's father who was to be connected in scenario 2 instead of the mother?

 

[Jeeves]

a man who has real love for his partner would never interfere or object to her choice to have an abortion.

Right. Except that loving couples aren't in this: they can figure it out between them and don't need our input. Little girls sold to old guys aren't in this: they have zero choice and no recourse to reason. Other cultures are not in this: they're beyond our reach.
(Underage girls in any circumstances are - unfortunately - in this, but shouldn't be. They need somebody to confide in, need to be informed of their realistic options, need emotional and material support, advice and counsel. Not out in the public spotlight, but in a safe and sensitive environment. Fat chance, for most of them, I know.
But let's be aware that boys are people too, who need their concerns discussed, or else they'll grow up to be Republicans.)

However, I was referring to emancipated adults making informed decisions without coercion from the state of anyone else.

 

[Bowser]

You haven't said anything. You simply posted a video.

And seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you? Are you utterly incapable of describing whatever circumstances which might make this Gianna Jessen pertinent to this thread? I mean, at least with Musika, I can understand the relevance with respect to advocacy; although why he couldn't simply spell it out, instead of telling us--repeatedly-- to "google Gianna Jessen," is beyond me.

And what is it with the anti-abortion crowd that makes them, seemingly, incapable of honest discourse? I'm sure there's someone out there who will approach the subject in an appropriate manner, it's just that I, personally, have never come across such a person.

This thread has 22 pages. In a nutshell: Life Good/Death Bad.

 

[Bowser]

Since I've posted, you've failed to say anything I'd have to disagree with - you're a coward.

I had lost interest in the thread after it started spinning in circles. Jumped in around the time I saw the ref to Gianna. I thought the video interesting, so I posted it. As for adding additional comments, I don't see much point in it. I doubt I will convince you any more than you will convince me.

 

[iceaura]

This thread has 22 pages. In a nutshell: Life Good/Death Bad.

Honesty Good/ Lying Bad
You aren't fooling anyone here.

I had lost interest in the thread after it started spinning in circles.

That wasn't a circle - it was a mirror. And unlike Musika, setting up a funhouse of distortions was not your agenda coming in - you weren't in control, and came to be faced with the reflection.
Or in direct terms: You found the thread difficult to post in without revealing your actual motives and basic outlook - which you don't like any more than anyone else does. Hence the deflection into videos, to avoid accountability: the bullshitter's favorite medium, the propagandist's handiest tool.

Somebody could formulate an analogy to Godwin's Law: first person to post a video instead of a response has checked out of any discussion. "Loses".

 

[Bowser]

Honesty Good/ Lying Bad
You aren't fooling anyone here.

Am I arguing for abortion?

Somebody could formulate an analogy to Godwin's Law: first person to post a video instead of a response has checked out of any discussion. "Loses".

Uhm, Okay. If watching a video somehow trumps your card...?

 

[Bowser]

Do you conservatives think it is right that a woman who becomes pregnant as a result of being raped, who then has an abortion, should be liable to be jailed for a longer term of imprisonment than her rapist would receive for his crime? Do you support this kind of punishment for abortion?

Well, the rape scenario pops up once again. Are we going to stand our arguments on the battered bodies of rape victims, even though they are less than 1% of those who get abortions? I will bite with another question: Should we kill the children of rapists?

 

[iceaura]

Uhm, Okay. If watching a video somehow trumps your card...?

Watching liars, bigots, fundies, imbeciles, and just plain bullshitters post videos instead of responses to avoid accountability has gotten old. It's bad manners.
Transcript, at least. You have something to say, post it.

 

[iceaura]

Are we going to stand our arguments on the battered bodies of rape victims, even though they are less than 1% of those who get abortions?

Yes.
You do realize that forcibly preventing a woman from getting an abortion - her right in self defense if for no other reason - is itself barely distinguishable from rape? Your percentage of battered bodies is going to get a lot higher, if you do that. You are even going to get some dead ones.

btw: So an alleged 1% is too low - What percentage would be your cutoff for human rights? 5%? 7%?

 

[Bowser]

Yes.
You do realize that forcibly preventing a woman from getting an abortion - her right in self defense if for no other reason - is itself barely distinguishable from rape? Your percentage of battered bodies is going to get a lot higher, if you do that. You are even going to get some dead ones.

btw: So an alleged 1% is too low - What percentage would be your cutoff for human rights? 5%? 7%?

You didn't answer the question. Should we kill the children of rapists? I mean, if we ever do recognize the unborn as human life, would we make an exception for those whose father was a rapist?

Watching liars, bigots, fundies, imbeciles, and just plain bullshitters post videos instead of responses to avoid accountability has gotten old. It's bad manners.

We post videos on this site often. Why the objections now? It's a unique opportunity to hear from an abortion victim...or do they not count in this discussion?

 

[wegs]

Here we go again.

To pro life men - why do you feel that you or men in general should have a say in abortion? Why shouldn’t it be between a woman and her doctor?

That’s the original thread topic. Why can’t any of you answer this?

 

[Bowser]

To pro life men - why do you feel that you or men in general should have a say in abortion? Why shouldn’t it be between a woman and her doctor?

Because some of us believe the life within the woman is valuable, worth protecting. But be certain that many men would be happy to take a women to the abortion clinic, not so much for her but for himself.

 

[wegs]

Because some of us believe the life within the woman is valuable, worth protecting. But be certain that many men would be happy to take a women to the abortion clinic, not so much for her but for himself.

Finally, an answer. (Thank you) I don't disagree, that there are men who want to keep abortion legal without restrictions, because it suits them. But, know that many, MANY woman make the decision alone, and there is no guy walking them to the clinic. It is wrong for men to ''have their fun'' and then walk away, leaving a woman to handle raising a child that she didn't really plan for. Do you feel that all men who help to get a woman pregnant, should be held as responsible as a woman?

 

[wegs]

Imagine though, if suddenly vasectomies were banned or made very restrictive. There are many religious people who feel that OTC birth control and vasectomies, should be banned or limited. imagine if women were involved in making these decisions for men - saying that due to their religious beliefs, they believe that preventing life is wrong. And those religious beliefs became lawful.

I bring this up because it would seem that much of the pro-life movement has to do with religious values - that life begins at conception. But, also, those same pro-lifers follow religions that prevent birth control, etc. as preventing life is also ''sinful.'' At the end of the day, pro-lifers seem to pick and choose when to whip out their moral compass, and abortion is when it comes out. Where is their moral compass when their religious values don't match up with their use of birth control?

So, my point being that morality is very subjective, and it seems to be drawn only when it affects other people's lives. When it affects our own on a personal level, then we're like...eh, I don't want the government telling ME how to live MY life.

 

[Bowser]

Finally, an answer. (Thank you) I don't disagree, that there are men who want to keep abortion legal without restrictions, because it suits them. But, know that many, MANY woman make the decision alone, and there is no guy walking them to the clinic. It is wrong for men to ''have their fun'' and then walk away, leaving a woman to handle raising a child that she didn't really plan for. Do you feel that all men who help to get a woman pregnant, should be held as responsible as a woman?

I believe they are responsible by law. Correct me if I am wrong.

Imagine though, if suddenly vasectomies were banned or made very restrictive. There are many religious people who feel that OTC birth control and vasectomies, should be banned or limited. imagine if women were involved in making these decisions for men - saying that due to their religious beliefs, they believe that preventing life is wrong. And those religious beliefs became lawful.

I've never know any other guys who were planning a vasectomies.. It's always been their wives who insisted on the procedure

I bring this up because it would seem that much of the pro-life movement has to do with religious values - that life begins at conception. But, also, those same pro-lifers follow religions that prevent birth control, etc. as preventing life is also ''sinful.'' At the end of the day, pro-lifers seem to pick and choose when to whip out their moral compass, and abortion is when it comes out. Where is their moral compass when their religious values don't match up with their use of birth control?

I can't answer for others.

So, my point being that morality is very subjective, and it seems to be drawn only when it affects other people's lives. When it affects our own on a personal level, then we're like...eh, I don't want the government telling ME how to live MY life.

Well, here is the thing, what is the value of human life--yours, mine and theirs? I want to believe we all share a common morality, no matter how thin that thread might be. I could be wrong though.

 

[wegs]

I don’t know. I think if we’re honest, the fact that you support Trump, leads many of us to be stand-offish as you coming from an altruistic, moral place. You don’t have the same concern for “life at the border,” starving kids and their parents, but you’re concerned with a fetus. Why?

I’m not judging your pro-life stance, or your concern with a fetus, but it just seems hypocritical to me. That’s why these discussions never lead anywhere. Maybe pro-life isn’t the right label - anti-abortion is more fitting.

 

[Write4U]

Well, the rape scenario pops up once again. Are we going to stand our arguments on the battered bodies of rape victims, even though they are less than 1% of those who get abortions? I will bite with another question: Should we kill the children of rapists?

The numbers are not iportant. What's important is the right to self-determination by women. Anti-abortion laws are a stark example of women's rights in face of a horrible experience which then is added to by the imposition of a burden on her life for some 18 years, raising an unwanted child which was forced on her by violent rape.

When can a woman declare her right to utterly reject the results of that rape? The new proposed laws would deny a woman that simple control over her own body, laws which are being passe without participation of women who are the prime subject of the discussion.

It is a good example of what limits there are if at all. Obviously, life itself is not a sacred thing to pro-lifers. They will gladly kill a doctor who performs abortions in order to save the life of an unborn fetus. Killing someone in order to save a life seems like a somewhat skewed perspective on priorities, IMO.

 

[wegs]

Adding on to my post above, something I've noticed is that many pro-lifers are okay with sending men and women to war, ''stand your ground law'' which means you can shoot to kill if someone is violating your space (even if that other person is unarmed), sending people away from the border with nowhere to go, death penalty, killing/hunting deer/animals for sport, etc.

And the replies are typically ''well, that's different...''

So, if there's going to be common ground to be found, it will be in starting with pro-lifers honestly reflecting as to why they seem to consider some life disposable, but have such a strong opinion on abortion.

 

[wegs]

I've never know any other guys who were planning a vasectomies.. It's always been their wives who insisted on the procedure

Okay. Imagine if the government made the decision for them.

Well, here is the thing, what is the value of human life--yours, mine and theirs? I want to believe we all share a common morality, no matter how thin that thread might be. I could be wrong though.

Who is ''theirs?''

 

[Jeeves]

This thread has 22 pages. In a nutshell: Life Good/Death Bad......
.....Well, here is the thing, what is the value of human life--yours, mine and theirs? I want to believe we all share a common morality, no matter how thin that thread might be.

OK! So you're busy supporting gun-control legislation and working hard to abolish capital punishment.