'Shock & Awe': an often misused term to be reckoned with; as used against U.S. Vets

[Captain Kremmen]

You exhibit a photograph of the conflagration of a portion of Baghdad. Harlan Ullman, originator of that term (seven years before the above photograph was taken) specifically gainsays the abundant news reporters ('Live and on the mean scene') of that happening, who consistently practiced and applied the term 'Shock & Awe' to that fiery event.

Let's take the sentence bit by bit and try to find where I've gone wrong.
Harlan Ullman- Harlan Ullman
originator of that term- Who made up the phrase "Shock and Awe"
(Seven years before the above photograph was taken)- Seven years before the attack on Baghdad in 2003
Specifically gainsays- Categorically contradicts
The abundant news reporters -the many News reporters
("Live and on the mean scene")- who commented live on that event
of that happening- of the attack on Baghdadad
who consistently practiced and applied - who, all the time used and made use of
the term 'Shock & Awe' - The phrase "Shock and Awe"
to that fiery event. when describing the attack on Baghdad.


gainsay
geɪnˈseɪ/Submit
verbformal
1.
deny or contradict (a fact or statement).
"the impact of the railways cannot be gainsaid"

 

[Sorcerer]

You have misunderstood.
He isn't saying that rape is "shock and awe", but that a rapist may use similar tactics to render their victim incapable of resistance.
Shock and awe is specifically a military term.

That is terminally stupid. A rapist does not use cruise missiles and tanks to beat his victim into submission.

 

[Sorcerer]

'Shock & Awe' did not 'first gain prominence in the Iraq war'. You have the opportunity to understand that term in the Opening Post. The man who owns that extremely cogent term disagrees with you and whoever else cares to publicly embarrass themselves.

You really are an arrogant pompous fool. You should clear off somewhere.

No one owns any phrase, cogent or not. And Iraq was the first time it was in general use.

Your head is so far up your ass you must have a first class view of your large colon.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

That is terminally stupid. A rapist does not use cruise missiles and tanks to beat his victim into submission.

Of course not, but foul language, overpowering strength, showing the person a weapon, and threatening murder, may have
the effect of making the victim give up without a fight.
The same principles apply, but on a smaller scale.

 

[Kaiduorkhon]

Let's take the sentence bit by bit and try to find where I've gone wrong.
Harlan Ullman- Harlan Ullmanhttp://www.sciforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3158557&noquote=1
originator of that term- Who made up the phrase "Shock and Awe"
(Seven years before the above photograph was taken)- Seven years before the attack on Baghdad in 2003
Specifically gainsays- Categorically contradicts
The abundant news reporters -the many News reporters
("Live and on the mean scene")- who commented live on that event
of that happening- of the attack on Baghdadad
who consistently practiced and applied - who, all the time used and made use of
the term 'Shock & Awe' - The phrase "Shock and Awe"
to that fiery event. when describing the attack on Baghdad.


gainsay
geɪnˈseɪ/Submit
verbformal
1.
deny or contradict (a fact or statement).
"the impact of the railways cannot be gainsaid"

Having elected to contribute improvements on my prose you've proven to easily comprehend and therein compliment the communication you're addressing. Your need to occupy a control station belies an overcompensation to gainsay or otherwise superfluously one-up this writer.

Referencing Sorcerer's above Posts #22 & 23, that hostile posturing speaks overcompensatory volumes already spoken in vacantly fortified defense of the cited journalists and reporters covering the Baghdad story with a book-title term, 'Shock and Awe', as it is very specifically and more than inadvertently defined by its author (much like what has become the adopted, complimentary currency of Sebastian Junger's phrase, 'The Perfect Storm'. Junger doesn't own his three combined titular words either, but he did grace those combined words and made communications history with them): that was authored by one person - who is not referred to in that borrowed-Baghdad-time window - years earlier. Kudos to you, Captain. For simply manning up.

Sorcerer's Light Brigade, Little Bighorn, Custer-emulating response is a dog-eared study in overwhelmed, frustrated impotence. Falling back on the vanity of artistically missing the point when he deigns not to catch on, with pompous, arrogant name-calling, denial, and anal rape mentality: "You really are an arrogant pompous fool. You should clear off somewhere. No one owns any phrase, cogent or not. And Iraq was the first time it was in general use. Your head is so far up your ass you must have a first class view of your large colon." Dear Sorcerer: have you made a 7 Up Yours! Lately?

That's a wrap. Welcome to The Machine. Once you're in, you're in for good.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

OK let's move on.
I liked one of your observations.
To a goldfish, tapping on its bowl is shock and awe.
That is perfectly true.

@Sorceror
What's made you so annoyed?
It's only a discussion you know.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

We used "shock and awe" quite effectively in Dresden, where we killed tens of thousands of innocent, peaceful people.

The death camps began to be discovered in 1944, and Auschwitz itself was uncovered in January 1945. By February of that year, when Dresden was bombed, the true horror of the Holocaust was becoming known to the military leaders of the Allies, if not to the general public.

The Germans had murdered literally millions of "innocent, peaceful" Jews. There were about 15,000 concentration camps throughout Europe (according to documents only recently made available by the governments of former communist countries), three times as many as had been believed to exist for half a century.

It's unlikely that very many Germans could not have been aware of the Holocaust. Their centuries-old antisemitism, culminating in the election of Hitler, made it possible. So it's a little flaky to assert that the majority of the people in Dresden or any other German city were innocent and peaceful. It's like saying that since most of the people in the American South were not landowners and therefore did not own slaves, therefore the majority of the people in the Confederacy were not racists.

That is terminally stupid. . . . . You really are an arrogant pompous fool. . . . . You should clear off somewhere. Your head is so far up your ass you must have a first class view of your large colon.

Sorcerer: This is a warning from a moderator. Please direct your criticisms at the other members' words, not at the members themselves.

Any further outbursts will result in official action.

Fraggle Rocker
Moderator
Linguistics

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Here's the ridiculous thing.
After "Shock and Awe" which brought an incredibly speedy victory in the Battle for Baghdad,
the US Army left the Capital and much of the rest of the country without infrastructure for years.

So the very thing that brought them initial success, began steadily undermining their control.
How stupid!

 

[Kaiduorkhon]

Like PTSD, shock & awe was around for a mighty long time before there was a name for it. And yes, it certainly was very much in the military foreground in WW II; particularly in the newly adopted practice of that war, regarding what became the aerial saturation bombing of known civilian, non-combatant urban habitats. Such practice was called 'area bombing'. It was definitely to break the will of whatever targeted civilian populace - and its leadership. Inevitably, such tactics as policy are horrendous. The instillation and maintenance of 'fear factor' has since become de rigeur for even the most 'civilized' cultures, and again, this tactic as policy is not new: though the Civil War in the United States, and the American Infantry presence in Europe were remarkably merciful regarding civilians and other non-combatants such as hospital personnel and their patient charges.

Genghis ('the barbarian') was notorious for mass murdering entire cities of civilized people, to the last soul; even then razing the structural city and salting the earth beyond any agricultural recovery - starting in 1206 AD, having united the hitherto disunited approximately 90 Mongolian tribes - went on to give the united tribes a common enemy, so that they would not fall back to their traditional, cultural practice of making war (for horses, women, slaves and water) against each other: Genghis (and two generations of his sons and grandsons following him) brought his united tribal force - and held them - together to recognize a common objective and enemy: to make war on and vanquish all of China (Genghis' grandson Kublai sat on the Dragonthrone) , Russia, India, all of what is now called the Middle East, and portions of Eastern Europe (Poland, East Germany, Hungary, Czchoslavakia, the Ukraine...) Russia in particular was and is consequently suffused with Mongolian blooded nationality; refer, 'Black Russians'. There are also, Black Poles, Black Hungarians and yes, Black Germans. One could also include 'Black (East) Indians', though India was raided and overwhelmed several times over, long before Gehghis and his sons and grandsons overran it. This series of major raids on India were carried out by the so-called 'Chariot Empires', most of which employed spoked wheel light weight horse drawn chariots and originated from northern Europe: note the Caucasian features of many East Indian people.

Fraggle Rocker's Post # 27 does underscore the fairly unusual, against-the-grain observation that it's not likely the Nazi German civilians weren't very aware of death camp; the media monopolized leadership was very specific about exterminating the Jews. Jewish people all over Germany and then Nazi occupied Europe were routed from their homes and literally rail- roaded to indeed: 15,000 and more death camps. Furthermore, the vacated and abandoned Jewish properties were reoccupied and seized by the nonJewish residents of innumerable cities. Indeed again, the claim jumpers could not help but know about this, even if they weren't the property seizers themselves.

The Nazi denial is just that: the Nazi albatross is around many more Teutonic Nazi necks than history including that of the American South - will ever know.

Neither must history forget the German people who opposed the Nazi regime, and lost their lives in defense of themselves, and certainly the Jewish people.

There is a rare post-WW II German soldier's book, entitled 'The Man Outside'; its written by a German soldier who distinguished himself on the Russian front, and was wounded there and returned to Germany, where he dared disagree with the incumbent Nazi status quo. 'Upper' didn't quite know what to do with him, since he'd been publicly honored for distinguished service, many times... He wound up in a Nazi prison cell, where he 'died of natural causes': malnutrition and subsequent multiple diseases.

Good to see you Captain Kremmer.

 

[billvon]

It's unlikely that very many Germans could not have been aware of the Holocaust. Their centuries-old antisemitism, culminating in the election of Hitler, made it possible. So it's a little flaky to assert that the majority of the people in Dresden or any other German city were innocent and peaceful.

?? Most of the people in Syria are innocent and peaceful despite two factions being embroiled in a bloody and horrific civil war. Just because someone's government does something does not mean the citizenry supports it. Indeed, in Dresden, a lot of the people killed were people fleeing the war.

It's like saying that since most of the people in the American South were not landowners and therefore did not own slaves, therefore the majority of the people in the Confederacy were not racists.

Before the war, would you have considered most of the people in the North racists? Would a foreign power be justified in destroying Manhattan in 1858 and killing 10,000 "racists" in retaliation?

 

[Kaiduorkhon]

This statement by Ullman was interesting:

Shock and Awe can be and has been applied to criminal batteries and physical beatings, including those carried out by one or more persons against rape victims, including children. It's meaning - without the descriptive term itself - can be correctly applied to any physical and/or psychological overwhelming force, as it is projected upon, perceived, and/or directly experienced by whatever being or environment it is projected upon. Certainly the practice has been around much longer than the *terminology that describes it; just as 'Post Traumatic Stress Disorder' has existed long before there was any term-for or academic/medical-address to it

He's an interesting man.
He compares the method he recommended, as a method of achieving a swift victory in Iraq, to rape.
That's absolutely right. He doesn't try to dress it up in fancy terms.
He reveals himself as a realist who knows that war is an evil business.
It's a pity that the US Government didn't ask his advice on what to do after the initial victory.
They might have had less trouble.
After "Shock and Awe", which was militarily a complete success, they descended into chaos.

Dear Captain Kremmer:

Truly Yours - not Ullman - authored the first paragraph (in the above Bold typed balloon) of this post. Thanks for the compliments.

(Keep the change?)

While this Post is underway, I may as well augment it with the note that Ulysses S. Grant was often and bitterly criticized for 'foddering' his troops - yet it was a very tactical and reasonable military tactic, because he (Grant) threw a lot of troops (he could 'afford'; unlike Lee) at the enemy and literally overwhelmed the opposition. Any tactic of 'sparing the troops' generally required a more extended battle; which generally entailed a much greater loss of troops than did a swift mass killing and fear factored overrunning. It seems the Monday morning quarterbacks were 'more comfortable' without 'Shock & Awe' long before the ancient tactic had a categorical moniker (a 1996 published book named after it).

Moreover, regarding Captain Kremmer's (#3) Post, alluding to the VA bureaucracy's truly earned reputation for 'neglecting' distressed veterans and 'losing' their service jackets (including the 'fire damage' loss of 30 to 60% of the Service Medical Records stored in the National Military Service Archives in St. Louis, Missouri in the mid '90s; where there were no sprinkler systems and no 'walking watch' sentries: this loss saved the gvt. from doing a lot of paper work <which is money> and most importantly saved billions of $ for compensation benefits for worthy veterans <which is a hell of a lot more money>, since such pay requires the proof from Service Records), for example.

Where Captain Kremmer dropped the 'nonsense' bomb (Post #3), is in his failure to stand in a 'returned' combat vet's shoes when he answers a knock on the door and is greeted by the local police who have been contacted by the Vets Admin., motivated by a VA employed counselor who has read (and wishes to 'keep their job', and is anxious to please) the Homeland Security and Patriot Act's agendized instructions to disarm as many - especially combat - veterans as possible (without due cause or a judge's order and without any due process such as a trial via a jury of one's peers; instead, with a 'red-tape slashing' Constitution smashing) 'medical hold' - all done with the signature of one (ass kissing, gutless) psychiatrist who has never seen or heard the targeted veteran.

Any and all firearms and ammunition (very often extremely valuable), legally purchased and owned, sometimes including a legally acquired (required non-felony police record) 'carry' permit:.. are confiscated (stolen by the federal government) and nullified. The free-fire-zone designated veteran ('Support Our Troops! Just make sure they dont come home...') is furthermore locked down 'on medical hold' for a period of 30 days or longer, to make it look like 'there must have been a very good reason', which in fact there is: refer The Homeland Security Act, (released and binding in the immediate shadow of the 9/11 disaster, which does in fact look very much like 'an inside job')...

Again, as a Chaplin counselor (imposters of the Clergy are criminals) I have directly witnessed the events unfolding around and concerning veterans who have had the unforeseen, insanely designed net thrown over them; who have in fact committed suicide, or sincerely attempted to commit suicide. Bringing unfathomable and permanent grief to their families and friends: all victims of the established: insane - America murdering - 'government' practices.

(The incumbent, madly administered 'government' is not only out to obliterate the much controversied 2nd Amendment <of Right to Bear Arms>, the 4th Amendment <of Right to Privacy> is already altogether compromised, while the 10th Amendment <Right to Sovereign Statehood apart from the federal government when the latter institution isn't doing - and/or is betraying - it's sworn responsibilities>: Texas and Alaska have already invoked - and were the first states to invoke and - activate<d> the 10th Amendment, portending a marooned Wa. District of Columbia all by itself in a sea of Statehoods.)

Hey K Street lobbyists, maybe you can recover your losses by selling life jackets, cheap?
Perhaps you can keep Wall Street afloat?

There are scores of documentary books released and still culminating, authored by former or incumbent politicians, social scientists and military brass along with a host of forensic scientists and explosives experts who report that the Twin Towers and Pentagon catastrophes were carried out by very high ranking rogue elements of the United States government.

But, of course, Shock & Awe could never sneak attack the very world, in only-lines-on-paper.

"If Fascism (certainly including the much touted 'New World Order') is ever installed in the American political system it will do so on a platform of Americanism". - Assassinated Governor Huey Long, of Louisiana.

"This was not just a terrorist attack! This was an act of war! You are either for us, or against us!"

"There's no place to hide!"

- President George Bush Jr., delivering the shocking, awesome ultimatum, via all electronics and printed mass media. The Day After 9.11.01

The next issue of TIME magazine features (Mr. 'No place to Dr. Jekyl & Mr.) hide!', the same 'Commander In Chief' (standing beside a NYC Fireman), with his foot propped up on a stack of rubble, beneath the unfurled National Colors...

(The Invisible Oval Officer?)

Refer, Governor Huey Long's admonition about Fascism predating America under a platform of Americanism.

As an ordained VFW (Congressionally chartered Veterans of Foreign Wars) Chaplain, I have over the decades counseled with literally hundreds of combat veterans and their families, though I have no 'counselor' certification, I do have the required experience & communications (one-on-one and group counseling skills); I do have the required confidentiality standards, and I do know what 'returning' (the Homeland Security/Patriot Acts do not want to say they are especially targeting) 'combat' veterans generally feel, and why...

I have witnessed first hand a particular type of case where a veteran with no criminal record and no history of legally and ethically unjustified violence and with a diagnosis of 'Competent' ('non-threatening, autonomous'), by a VA employed psychiatrist-Adjudicator who has met and spoken with the veteran: the wife, sweetheart or mother of whom calls the VA on the phone to contact a 'Caregiver', so that she may be updated on her hubby's or son's meds, and/or be advised how to deal with his (overtly expressed, non-threatening) PTSD symptoms...

The VA has a (shocking and awesome) 'cure' for that, defined in the above series of events.

Janet Napolitano, the former (Obama appointed) Secretary of The (notorious) Homeland Security Act: resigned from her latest tenure: under very heavy fire from the 'civilian sector': consisting of - WW I, WW II, Korean, Vietnam, Grenada, Persian Gulf, Iraq, Afghanistan - veterans, their wives and/or mothers or sweethearts, their children, brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts, cousins, nephews (and in turn, their family-tree brachiating families and their friends)... Etceteras.

Ahem.

There is also tall-talk of the Oval Officer (and his following of New Whirled Odor, Declaration of Independence, Constitution & Bill of Rights-sacking, Arabian King Faisul-worshipping sychophants) declaring and enforcing a state of 'national emergency', and ordering the American Military (including the National Guard) and (paramilitary) Police to carry out the required 'enforcement' against the American ('We the') people...

It seems that the hidden persuaders authoring the Homeland Security and Patriot Acts have no idea, or do not care, just who the American people are.

(That's pretty much everyone, isn't it?)

Dear Mr. Commander in Chief (Oval Officer, is that not a high profile Double-Think place to hide? Have you and your advisors taken leave of your senses?):

Are you sure you want to do this?

Of course this isn't shocking or awesome, it's 'nonsense'...

Wanna have another look at your #3 Post in this thread, Captain Kremmer?

Please pardon my dust?

(Ho hummie?)

:fright:

 

[Captain Kremmen]

If veterans are being targeted to remove their weapons, that is discriminatory.
I'm glad to live in a country where few people bear arms, but if we did allow people to carry guns
then I wouldn't wish to be persecuted because I had served my country.

 

[Kaiduorkhon]

If veterans are being targeted to remove their weapons, that is discriminatory.
I'm glad to live in a country where few people bear arms, but if we did allow people to carry guns
then I wouldn't wish to be persecuted because I had served my country.

Upon the tentatively considered tactic of Japan attacking the American mainland with Infantry Troops in 1941, Admiral Yamamoto (who was educated in the United states) correctly advised his gathered peers and superiors:

"If you deploy mass Infantry against America, there will be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

Upon being so advised by the much revered Admiral, Japanese 'upper' shelved the idea.

The American sobriquet for the Japanese National Colors (a bright red rising Sun at the center of a rectangular white background) became colloquially referred to as 'the Japanese meatball', after the above-referenced plan was considered and discarded and when American intel officers learned of it. The American CRYPTO personnel - and President FDR - were reading the Japanese code as it was transmitted to the Japanese Embassy in Wa. D.C., long before the - deliberately permitted - attack on Pearl Harbor, carried out on 12.7.'41. That I recall, Life magazine broke this documentary story in 1965, though earlier publications from the private sector had also released the same revelation.

The European War Theater was already well underway after Germany attacked Poland and Russia, but the United State's majority of people were still reluctant to be involved in another war, after the terrible American losses suffered in WW I. American 'upper' therefore resolved to allow the attack on Pearl Harbor, confident that Japan's place in the triangular 'Iron Axis' of Germany, Italy and Japan, would put the American people in a fighting mood; which it did.

The above paragraph-contained information is paralleled by similar histories of United States alignment-with and flexibility-toward events around the Spanish American ('Remember the Maine!) War, and WW I, Vietnam ('Tonkin Gulf Resolution'), Grenada ('Rescue the American citizen students'), Persian Gulf ('Save the oil!', paraphrased), Iraq and Afghanistan: 'Police and/or Expeditionary' actions.

America has not been engaged in a declared war since 1945.

When Supreme Commander, two term President of the United States, Dwight David Eisenhower stepped down from his 1958-1962 dated presidential term, he publicly advised the American people to 'beware of the military-industrial complex, lest they lead you in to war for profit'. In those paraphrased words. Since then it is very clear that President Eisenhower's admonition has basically gone unheeded. *The 'sheeple' fear the government, rather than *conversely; *as it is intended to be, in any true Democracy.

The above listed involvements do not include relatively low-profiled American military presence in places such as Central America and FILL IN HERE. Indeed, there are significantly expensive and covert United States government sponsored and 'advisory' coached military actions deployed world-wide that are unknown to the American media and people.

America's civilian sector is the most heavily armed non military populace in el mundo. Where and from whom did you learn otherwise?

"If veterans are being targeted to remove their weapons..."

Looks like a very carefully thought-out turn of a phrase. Having been given the opportunity to do your own research and know that your 'if' is altogether too cautious: your fear of the (categorically rogue) government is a blinding ray of moonshine.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Admiral Yamamoto (who was educated in the United states) correctly advised his gathered peers and superiors:
"If you deploy mass Infantry against America, there will be a rifle behind every blade of grass."


It doesn't sound like something a Japanese General would say, but convince me.
Could you give a reliable reference to his saying this?

 

[Kaiduorkhon]

Admiral Yamamoto (who was educated in the United states) correctly advised his gathered peers and superiors:
"If you deploy mass Infantry against America, there will be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

It doesn't sound like something a Japanese General would say, but convince me.Could you give a reliable reference to his saying this?

_________________________________________

Your posted incredulity is that of a remiss, lazy skeptic...

Multi-tasking in an unredeemed role of authority, while simultaneously retreating from the responsibilities of it.

________________________________________

soroku Yamamoto - Wikiquotes

en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto

Wikiquote

Isoroku Yamamoto ... The omitted sentence showed Yamamoto's counsel of caution towards a war that ... There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.

Talk:Isoroku Yamamoto - Wikiquote

en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Isoroku_Yamamoto‎

Wikiquote

Jump to On the "rifle behind every blade of grass" quotation - [edit]. While digging around online, I discovered another Web poster's remark to ...

Misquoting Yamamoto - FactCheck.org

www.factcheck.org/2009/05/misquoting-yamamoto/‎

FactCheck.org

May 11, 2009 - They frequently quote Japan's Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto as saying: "You cannot invade ... There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass.

Who said invasion would be foolish Gun behind every blade of grass

wiki.answers.com › ... › History, Politics & Society › History › US History‎

"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." is a quote by Isoroku Yamamoto, Commander-in-Chief of ...
Yamamoto quote - authentic? - THR

www.thehighroad.org › ... › Social Situations › General Gun Discussions‎

Jan 16, 2007 - 34 posts - ‎25 authors
There is a rifle behind every blade of grass. ... This quote from Admiral Yamamoto certainly sounds compelling in support of the argument that ...
Images for admiral yamamoto blade of grass - Report images

Behind every blade of grass. - YouTube

► 4:42► 4:42


www.youtube.com/watch?v=KihAwNn...‎

YouTube

Jul 26, 2013 - Uploaded by glin1216
The complete quote (often mis-attributed to Admiral Yamamoto of the Imperial Japanese ... There would be a ...

Isoroku Yamamoto - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto‎

Wikipedia

Isoroku Yamamoto (山本 五十六, Yamamoto Isoroku, 4 April 1884 – 18 April 1943) was a Japanese Marshal Admiral and the commander-in-chief of the ...


Gun Quotes: Admiral Yamamoto: "You cannot invade mainland ...
www.myspacecelebquotes.com/.../admiral-yamamoto-you-cannot-invade...‎

Admiral Yamamoto: "You cannot invade mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass." Advising Japan's military leaders of the ...

Invading America? Not Likely. - Free Republic
www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2863620/posts‎

Free Republic
Feb 11, 2012 - A Gun Behind Every Blade of Grass… Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto expressed an appropriate comment in the 1940's (though many ...
"...We would find a rifle behind every blade of grass." Isoroku ...

www.freedomsphoenix.com/.../051740-2009-06-13-we-would-find-a-rif...‎

Jun 13, 2009 - Subject: Gun Rights. "Japan would never invade the United States. We would find a rifle behind every blade of grass." Isoroku Yamamoto.

_______________________

Dear Captain Kremmer:
For a person who has logged in over 10,000 Posts in this forum and who controls the most sophisticated, swift and facile system of information-gathering in the history of the human animal, under his thumb, you flourish a rudimentary failure to employ it in the most menial chores. You also prove to be remiss in reading the Posts you respond to; redefining the realities of the ongoing thread, per Post you answer to.

For your latest example: Admiral Yamamoto was not a Japanese General, as you call him. He was the highest ranking Admiral in the Japanese Fleet, which was the most powerful Navy in the world at that time. Navys are traditionally and functionally the most powerful arm of any well established nation. They deliver Infantry personnel and material anywhere at any time. They are used to secure enormous coastal areas all over the world, moving from one remote place to another in short periods of time, while they are secured by the vastness of the contiguous world ocean(s). They can remain at sea - and submerged - indefinitely Gaining and maintaining replenishment of food, fuel, repair and hospitalization from other seagoing and air transportation units that traverse to and from shore installations.

Post Script: If you've not heard of Noam Chomsky, you're (definitely) not paying attention.

On the other hand, you seem to be entirely aware of and palpably intimidated by the incumbently awry government (dramatically, boldly and terribly proves itself a compromised refuge for misfits and tyrants. Refer the Oval Officer, especially since Bush Sr., and Clinton. Are you and yours not yet shocked and awed ? How much of their kind of table-turning, verbally judoistic, flip-flop branded terrorism are you willing to 'safely' ignore? Just how much are you and yours willing to compromise? War veterans in the WW II European theater - and their families and friends - and ever since: are the only reason your neighborhood remains unraided, so far...).

"Whomsoever is not willing to (even non-violently) fight for freedom and liberty, is not worthy of either." - Jefferson (and many other American Presidents and Patriots).

These constructive disagreements with you are not 'allegations'. They are observations, finding justification in this post alone.

I know of no military person who would cotton to your fence-riding, conspicuously shoulder-shrugging, 'dissolute' aversion from orbiting 'the way it is'...

Refer, 'the Little People' in H.G. Well's Time Machine, as they willfully march to the underground cannibal habitat and perish therein.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

The first site you link to says this:

Advocates of gun rights often argue that in World War II Japan was deterred from invading the U.S. mainland by a fear of American citizens with guns in their closets. They frequently quote Japan’s Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto as saying: "You cannot invade mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass."
But this quote is unsubstantiated and almost certainly bogus, even though it has been repeated thousands of times in various Internet postings. There is no record of the commander in chief of Japan’s wartime fleet ever saying it.

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/05/misquoting-yamamoto/‎

The second site is a gun discussion forum. No joy there either.
http://www.thehighroad.org/

Are you now saying that he didn't say it?
Doesn't the real laziness lie in trotting out pro-gun clichés without checking them first?

 

[Kaiduorkhon]

The first site you link to says this:

Advocates of gun rights often argue that in World War II Japan was deterred from invading the U.S. mainland by a fear of American citizens with guns in their closets. They frequently quote Japan’s Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto as saying: "You cannot invade mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass."
But this quote is unsubstantiated and almost certainly bogus, even though it has been repeated thousands of times in various Internet postings. There is no record of the commander in chief of Japan’s wartime fleet ever saying it.

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/05/misquoting-yamamoto/‎

The second site is a gun discussion forum. No joy there either.
http://www.thehighroad.org/

Are you now saying that he didn't say it?
Doesn't the real laziness lie in trotting out pro-gun clichés without checking them first?

I am not saying that he didn't say it. There's a historical hovel of long standing and incumbent documentary publications on this issue (long before the internet) and about half of these have been perused by me.

In response to your comment about my alleged laziness, wasn't it you that needed a prod from me to do your own information-gathering instead of passing that responsibility on to this writer?

"But this quote is unsubstantiated and almost certainly bogus, even though it has been repeated thousands of times in various Internet postings. There is no record of the commander in chief of Japan’s wartime fleet ever saying it."

'Almost certainly bogus...'

Your previously entered comments - or lack of them - in this contention reflects you as a new participant in this famous argument.

As with a very familiar quantity of internet sources, there are conflicting informations. Please be more specific, since you have been given a large reservoir of pro & con structured information from which sundry messages can be received and pondered. Your also familiar table-turning flip-flop allots two Posts chosen by you while the Post you are responding to offers a half dozen (and many more offered within the provided urls themselves). Do you care to narrow your argument down some more?

Your entire argument is based on the authority of one person, Prof. Donald M. Goldstein.

I went to the forum http://www.thehighroad.org/ to find a gun discussion forum. Please tell me which of the many offered categories is the one where you found 'no joy'.

It would not be out of character for me to subject whatever gun issue, whereas your initiation of the subject - apparently due to your pursuit of information I advised you to carry out - was not intended by me as an issue in this thread: "Doesn't the real laziness lie in trotting out pro-gun clichés without checking them first?"

Your question declares an intention that I did not have. You did in fact completely if momentarily change the subject of this thread, and, blame it on me (and you almost got away with it).

Such unretractable intent on your part is tantamount to an expertly contrived attack; while simultaneously and falsely blaming me for it. Cunning.

Your off-topic subjection of guns is duly noted. Where applicable in your bygone Posts, you leave evidence of being among those who are opposed to firearms in general. Certainly the pallor of hysteria on that issue is - for the past fifty or so years in particular - understandably based on what is an apparently exponential, expanding occurrence of horrific shootings of unarmed innocent people. The interrogative of 'why'' and the 'elusive mystery' of cause, is at least partially resolved in a notably avoided statement of the obvious (although there is a plethora of causes): the front and center cause is two factors - the key to brainwashing is repetition, and the endless 24-7-365 projection of [/B]extreme violence-as-entertainment and the inevitable cultural behavior that is created by it. I have already pointed this out in another thread, but it's worth repeating as opinionated evidence supporting what I just said: "Culture is creating monsters." - Pope Francis.

The other side of that generalization is that people in my age group often did not behold TV until years after they were born, and in the advent of TV some sixty five years ago, the programming and commercial were much more innocent. For a more detailed consideration of how much trouble we're all in, together, analyze this: http://www.sciforums.com/TV-THAT-WAT...4-t-99404.html, get back to me on that if you care to, in which case I will start another thread to celebrate whatever piqued interest - and contributions - you (or anyone else) may have...

Incidentally, speaking of 'guns', the proper term in this case and most other cases like it is that the military definition of a gun means 'artillery'. Beneath artillery is small arms, like pistols and rifles. The transition defining artillery and its distinction from small-arms is anything .50 cal (1/2 inch diameter projectile) and under is 'small arms'. Anything above that is 'artillery' Also, unlike most 'small arms', the artillery projectile is almost invariably designed to explode on contact and omnidirectionally throw shrapnel; otherwise known as 'fragmentation', aka 'frag'.

Albeit, I'd still like to know what part of http://www.thehighroad.org/ you're referring to.
____________________________________

eLibrary® Essential Topics

YAMAMOTO'S `SLEEPING GIANT' QUOTE AWAKENS A GIGANTIC ARGUMENT

"I fear we have awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve."

What better way to capture the patriotic determination of the United States than using these words uttered by a former enemy 60 years ago after another attack on America? Since the events of Sept. 11, politicians (including President Bush, who misquoted it as "mighty giant") and the media alike have used the quote, or parts of it, often. It's usually attributed to Japanese Adm. Isoroku Yamamoto, who uttered the now-famous comment soon after the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Or did he?

Historians are doubtful. Some say Hollywood simply made it up. Others contend that while Yamamoto could have written it at one time, he certainly didn't say it right after Pearl Harbor.

"As far as I know, we have no evidence that Yamamoto ever made the observation following the attack that Japan had awakened a sleeping giant," said Steve Gillon, dean of the Honors College at the University of Oklahoma and resident historian at the History Channel. "The phrase appears for the first time in a Hollywood movie."

The movie that Gillon refers to is 1970's Tora! Tora! Tora!, a 20th Century Fox production about Pearl Harbor...
_______________________________________

Noteworthy and peculiar, how the elements who are under strong and well justified 'suspicion' for themselves causing the Twin Towers to fall (including the equally controversied, unexplained 'cover story' collapse of several adjacent buildings), along with hitting the Pentagon (in a 'coincidental' surgical strike on Navy and Army Pentagon-based Intel stations and all the classified information that was orbiting those coordinates along with their authors and/or mission-assigned personnel).

Government and civilian sourced authors have written and published a number of documentaries prior to 9/11 that speak of what it would take to motivate the American people's agreement to redouble (and extend) the efforts of the incumbent leadership in their ongoing multi-phased attack on the Middle East (Notably excluding Arabia). The idea of an incident 'similar to Pearl Harbor and/or the Kennedy Assassinations' is among the (at that time) speculated incentive-provided impetus-stimulations... Of course the preceding words in the previous stream of information may be keyed into an entry in the www search mode.

A post 9/11 'attack on America' (they don't say, 'by Americans', here) commentary, follows...

"What better way to capture the patriotic determination of the United States than using these words uttered by a former enemy 60 years ago after another attack on America?

"Since the events of Sept. 11, politicians (including President Bush, who misquoted it as "mighty giant") and the media alike have used the quote, or parts of it, often. It's usually attributed to Japanese Adm. Isoroku Yamamoto, who uttered the now-famous comment soon after the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Or did he?"
______________________________

And the beat goes on...
_______________________________

Uhhmm...

Enormously repeated word is that 'Osama bin Laden (Lee Harvey Oswald?) did it'...

Or did he?

:bagpuss:

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

The incumbent, madly administered 'government'. . . .

The only president in my post-childhood lifetime whom I had any respect for was Eisenhower. Since then some (Clinton at least tried to bring the budget under control) have been measurably better than others (Backward Baby Bush should have been prosecuted for treason for protecting his family's friends in Saudi Arabia from being rightfully identified as the perpetrators of 9/11, or at the very least his pre-senile dementia should have been made public), but none of them have been worthy of the office.

I always slap my forehead when I read sycophantic praise of Jimmy Carter. He's the bastard who created the Taliban!

. . . . . is not only out to obliterate the much controversied 2nd Amendment <of Right to Bear Arms>. . . .

Like most firearm apologists you gloss over the full text of the amendment. The words "well regulated militia" are prominent. There's nothing "well-regulated" about firearms in a country in which more of its citizens are killed by gun violence than by road accidents; in which every gun is five times as likely to kill the owner, a family member, a neighbor or a harmless stranger due to anger, confusion, accident, incompetence or impulsive suicide, as it is to be used in actual self defense against a human or wild animal; in which a mother can openly acquire a full arsenal of automatic weapons and make them available to her unbalanced son (Adam Lanza), with the enthusiastic cooperation of the NRA; and in which Americans with guns kill 100x as many of us per decade as terrorists, yet the former have Congress in their pocket while we're giving up our constitutional rights, making a shambles of the federal budget, taunting the world's one billion Muslims into hating us, and becoming an embarrassment to our allies, in a quixotic attempt to eradicate the latter.

There are scores of documentary books released and still culminating, authored by former or incumbent politicians, social scientists and military brass along with a host of forensic scientists and explosives experts who report that the Twin Towers and Pentagon catastrophes were carried out by very high ranking rogue elements of the United States government.

There are wackos everywhere who believe these assertions--which are almost as believable as divine creation and are often perpetrated by the same demographic. Apparently there's at least one here among us.

"This was not just a terrorist attack! This was an act of war! You are either for us, or against us!"

Yes, an act of war committed by Saudi Arabia. In order to avoid making Americans hate the country from which once a month photos emerge of citizens marching in the street carrying signs saying "Death to America the Great Satan," he deflected the blame to Saddam Hussein, who had nothing to do with it, whose country was arguably the most secular, pro-western nation in the Middle East, and whose death led to the disappearance of what little stability the Middle East had, as Iraq became a Shiite-controlled nation like Iran and Syria.

If veterans are being targeted to remove their weapons, that is discriminatory.

No it's not. As a demographic, they have a frighteningly high rate of violence. (Even their rate of road accidents is alarming--they miss the thrills and risk of combat.) Admittedly it often manifests as suicide, but what's wrong with trying to stop people from killing themselves? Hell, we won't even let elderly people in hopeless pain do it!

Upon the tentatively considered tactic of Japan attacking the American mainland with Infantry Troops in 1941, Admiral Yamamoto (who was educated in the United states) correctly advised his gathered peers and superiors: "If you deploy mass Infantry against America, there will be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

It's often written as "gun" rather than "rifle," surely because of the difficulty in translation between two languages as astoundingly different as English and Japanese. As later posts point out, the veracity of this quote is quite controversial. I was amazed that it is not in Snopes.com . Even America's bullshit-detector-of-record can't settle it.

America's civilian sector is the most heavily armed non military populace in el mundo. Where and from whom did you learn otherwise?

Because of the inherent ambiguity of the construction of the sentence, that depends on interpretation. The percentage of the population who own guns is not as large as in some countries, but the size of each individual arsenal is frightening. Or at least it should be to any peace-loving citizen of global civilization.

 

[Kaiduorkhon]

Quote Originally Posted by Kaiduorkhon View Post

The incumbent, madly administered 'government'. . . .

"The only president in my post-childhood lifetime whom I had any respect for was Eisenhower. Since then some (Clinton at least tried to bring the budget under control) have been measurably better than others (Backward Baby Bush should have been prosecuted for treason for protecting his family's friends in Saudi Arabia from being rightfully identified as the perpetrators of 9/11, or at the very least his pre-senile dementia should have been made public), but none of them have been worthy of the office".

"I always slap my forehead when I read sycophantic praise of Jimmy Carter. He's the bastard who created the Taliban!"

Jimmy Carter is also 'the bastard' who made an attempt to rescue the hostages in Tehran, and failed, because the mission helicopters were sabotaged from the inside: so that George Bush Sr. and Ronald Reagan could beat him in the forthcoming next election (1980). Other than that qualification, I agree with you.

... is not only out to obliterate the much controversied 2nd Amendment <of Right to Bear Arms>. . . .

"Like most firearm apologists you gloss over the full text of the amendment. The words "well regulated militia" are prominent. There's nothing "well-regulated" about firearms in a country in which more of its citizens are killed by gun violence than by road accidents; in which every gun is five times as likely to kill the owner, a family member, a neighbor or a harmless stranger due to anger, confusion, accident, incompetence or impulsive suicide, as it is to be used in actual self defense against a human or wild animal; in which a mother can openly acquire a full arsenal of automatic weapons and make them available to her unbalanced son (Adam Lanza), with the enthusiastic cooperation of the NRA; and in which Americans with guns kill 100x as many of us per decade as terrorists, yet the former have Congress in their pocket while we're giving up our constitutional rights, making a shambles of the federal budget, taunting the world's one billion Muslims into hating us, and becoming an embarrassment to our allies, in a quixotic attempt to eradicate the latter".

Adam Lanza is the infamous monster who murdered 20 school children and 6 heroically martyred female school teachers in 2012 @ Sandy Hook Elementary School, Newtown, Connecticutt. We have understandably learned much about his victims. Why don't we know a hell of a lot more about Adam Lanza? Much more, exactly and experientially where he came from with all of the inevitably devilish details?[/I]On the other hand, given the timing and the fact that a key *National Rifle Association spokesman lives in and is employed out of that community, isn't there cause to flag that fact? *Is this a 'coincidence'?

Any who would protest that 'they' would never do a thing like 'program' a particularly horrific hit upon those (particular) coordinates: has altogether forgotten what 'they' are capable of: refer, Vietnam (if you ever experience any kind of 'dotage' around this eternal lesson: this keyboard will - as it has ever since that undeclared war drove us off that Asiatic peninsula - exact a permanent payment from such 'forgetfulness' for a very long time: much more than the decade duration of that completely insane, massive murdering machine. Here, and There...).

Then there's always (also) Waco, Texas, under a state of siege for 51 days on live network TV, the very world witnessing all of it, without a word (not a peep or even an audibly flatulent moment, directed at Texas) from the incumbent Atty. General, Janet Reno, or W.J. Clinton in the White House. Over two dozen small children there, quite everyone knowing that: while 'their' helicopters hover over the designated 'compound', blasting massive decibels all night long to sleep-deprive all residents beneath their chopper blades....

'They' cut off the electricity and water. 'They' fired hi powered bullets through the sheet-rock walls. 'They' encored with the murder of scores of innocent people including all the children: except 7 survivors. 'They' were and are the BATF and FBI. The media designated 'cult leader', David Koresh, became the focus of the controversy, displacing the real reason the entire mass-murder started: two adult males who had federal firearms licenses to own specific types of firearms, and, were 'checked out as cleared' by the ATF, under the Bush administration; but, for some 'reason', were being checked again, under the four month incumbent Clinton admistration; neither one of whom was David Koresh (the guy who was diversionarily accused (never having gone to trial) of child molestation after the federal agents pinned down the entire 'compound' with all of it's 'cult' designated occupants). 'They' murdered over 70 innocent people, burned them alive and proclaimed it a 'mass suicide': because, every one of them was witness to who fired the first shots, after the chore of a social worker or a sheriff knocking on the door, was escalated - from the outset - with armored federal vehicles orbiting the 'compound'... And shots fired through the front door from the outside in (the forensic evidence marked metal door, 'disappeared', while the press was held off a mile away). 'They' refrigerated the perished bodies. The electricity dependent refrigeration 'failed', causing the posthumous evidence to decay, severely handicapping forensic pathologists from determining cause of death. 70+ times over. No witnesses, save the 'whacked out' 7 survivors...

('We had to destroy the Branch Davidians and their children, in order to save them?')

Your recitation of the antiquated firearms issue rings out familiar as flea market bargains. Yes, there's a lot of bad stuff that happens due to 'firearms'; no meaningfully denying it. Bottom line on that is what it's always been: speaking of percentages, you didn't factor-in 'per capita' - there's any number of unstable nations ruled by 'tribal leaders' who are not only distributing small arms to their organized thugs, they're in the international black market weapons trading business.

While you're preoccupied with predictably harping on the inevitably circuitous debate focusing on the 2nd Amendment's reference to 'a well regulated militia', having been mainstream-media-programmed to engage that hotly seasoned argument, you've excluded the 'well regulated' militias you've not heard of. Like the Boy Scouts competition at the local shooting range, the international Olympics firearms competition; etcetera's, etcetera's, etcetera's... It certainly is clear why you don't like the NRA. What of the constant state of undeclared wars - and the staggering expense in people and money - perpetuated by the United States? The best government Corporate State money can buy (and/or extort). Do you really think this is 'necessary for the economy?' You know, What The Flock Are We Doing In Iraq? (The Persian Gulf, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Grenada, Central America, Cuba <Do not tell me 'we' weren't in Cuba>). Instead, you and your ilk point to the KKK and/or similar 'American Nazi'/'White Power' whackos: ('wackos' is optional, but doesn't phonetically sound out as well).

Gaining some treble and bass on that note, you predictably speak only of the flip side of that issue, while the flop side is the exemplary 'Fast & Furious'. You are invited to do the homework, but while you're at it, be reminded that 'Fast & Furious' is about a bunch of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms federal agents swapping small arms weapons for drugs contingent to Mexican gun & drug runners, and getting caught; then failing to successfully blame it on licensed American fire arms dealers. Mark it well, this was a very unusual circumstances of the subjected bad guys: 'getting caught'. We may only speculate on how much of this is the past and present status quo. Moreover, second only to the Petroleum industry, the Weapons Industry is the most wealthy, powerful industry in the world. Relatively speaking, it doesn't make a killing selling firearms to the private sector. You, Mr. Moderator, have selected the private sector - preferably one individual at a time - to dump your misplaced, foreclosed, flaming filibuster upon. Why don't you go after your so called 'heads of State', about what the hell they're doing with our groaning, tax-money-supported military people and budget...

Do you grok the full import of American tax money spent on 'private contractors'? The 'Black Budget'? 'Mobile kill teams'? 'Merc's'?

Have you ever heard of the (exemplary) 'Halliburton Co.'? Can you spell it? Can you dog-paddle in 'BlackWater U.S.A.'? Are you shielded in Armor Group? Can you beat Hart Security?

Summarily, since you have read my Post as you respond to it, you apparently have not noticed that I did not initiate the 'gun' issue; neither do I wish to posture my 'apologist' stance in this thread, at all. That is made very clear and you are correspondingly readable as saying I 'glossed over' your offered clause from the 2nd Amendment. As you probably know, I have a thread entitled 'The Gunsmith's Apprentice & Military Chaplin' in this forum and you are invited to gas me there, but not here, thank you.

There are scores of documentary books released and still culminating, authored by former or incumbent politicians, social scientists and military brass along with a host of forensic scientists and explosives experts who report that the Twin Towers and Pentagon catastrophes were carried out by very high ranking rogue elements of the United States government.

"There are wackos everywhere who believe these assertions (*'Belief' is it? Are you baptizing and/or otherwise anointing the authority of who you do - and do not - 'believe'?) which are almost as believable as divine creation and are often perpetrated by the same demographic. Apparently there's at least one here among us."

Sound and fury, signifying little zip codes in your head that tell you what to trespass, on this hijacked thread?

While we're out of this thread's box, apparently you and your directly implied name-calling are not even cursorily familiar with the list of authors and titles who and which address the issue you have 'glossed over'; made yourself perfectly clear on, as an anti-gun nut. You speak of the quantitative inventory of American owned firearms without making any mention to the doomed economy and how valuable - especially certain - gun collections are (hardware, far more durable than worthless, Federal Reserve paper money). I did make a point of specifying that the authors (producers, directors, et al) of responsibly documentary works are all over the net with click-ons you critically allude-to but do not name or attend to: this 'whacko' wishes to be 'apparent' in the afore-referenced thread (The Apprentice Gunsmith & Military Chaplin). Thank you once again, Mr. Moderator.

"This was not just a terrorist attack! This was an act of war! You are either for us, or against us!"

"Yes, an act of war committed by Saudi Arabia. In order to avoid making Americans hate the country from which once a month photos emerge of citizens marching in the street carrying signs saying "Death to America the Great Satan," he deflected the blame to Saddam Hussein, who had nothing to do with it, whose country was arguably the most secular, pro-western nation in the Middle East, and whose death led to the disappearance of what little stability the Middle East had, as Iraq became a Shiite-controlled nation like Iran and Syria".

I agree with everything you say in the immediate-above paragraph, though you seem to have forgotten Mr. Bush's delivered (fear factored) ultimatum..

(Here you friggin go, again...)

Quote Originally Posted by Captain Kremmen View Post
If veterans are being targeted to remove their weapons, that is discriminatory.

"No it's not. As a demographic, they have a frighteningly high rate of violence. (Even their rate of road accidents is alarming--they miss the thrills and risk of combat) Admittedly it often manifests as suicide, but what's wrong with trying to stop people from killing themselves? Hell, we won't even let elderly people in hopeless pain do it!"

Aircraft pilots and a disproportionately high percentage of people with high risk jobs, along with cross-sectionally considered young people are also on your hit list. That's why driver's & car insurance for those 25 years and under is disproportionately high.

The key words in the above paragraph are 'As a demographic'. Apparently you're a 'one size fits all' kind'a guy. The resigned-under-heavy-fire former Secretary of the self-destructive Homeland Security Act, Ms. Janet Napolitano, has a studio apartment folding bed, reserved for you.

Get (acquire) a grip... (refer, 'grasp').

There is a documented incident of Truly Your's saving several lives in 1997, with a firearm and without harming anyone: in the thread title, 'The Gunsmith's Apprentice & Military Chaplin'. Kindly read it and confine your SuperTorqued-flaming-filibuster platform to that location.

How many times need you remind me to remind you to unleash your misplaced, ongoing argumental saw in this thread, to the thread you've already been referred to, twice? Please do not furthermore hijack this thread with your hair-trigger, off-topic anti-gun soapbox and hauntingly hysterical rhetoric.

The below subjection of 'guns' is a qualified response to what Captain Kremmer brought to this thread, as my response to him clarifies...

Quote Originally Posted by Kaiduorkhon View Post

Upon the tentatively considered tactic of Japan attacking the American mainland with Infantry Troops in 1941, Admiral Yamamoto (who was educated in the United states) correctly advised his gathered peers and superiors: "If you deploy mass Infantry against America, there will be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

"It's often written as "gun" rather than "rifle," (*No shit?) surely because of the difficulty in translation between two languages as astoundingly different as English and Japanese (*Refer the previous asterisk). As later posts point out, the veracity of this quote is quite controversial. I was amazed that it is not in Snopes.com. Even America's bullshit-detector-of-record can't settle it." (*Your allegory 'point' here, is without any substance at all...)

Again, I did not initiate this stretched out subjection of 'guns'. Your above short paragraph belabors a point finer than the sum of it's squeeking parts. English, Japanese: in this case it does not make a whit of difference.

America's civilian sector is the most heavily armed non military populace in el mundo. Where and from whom did you learn otherwise?

"Because of the inherent ambiguity of the construction of the sentence, that depends on interpretation. The percentage of the population who own guns is not as large as in some countries, but the size of each individual arsenal is frightening. Or at least it should be to any peace-loving citizen of global civilization".

I've already responded to that inherently off-topic question in this thread.

'...citizen of global civilization'.
Please explain your intended meaning here. Are you another blanched New World Order (trash the Constitution) salesman?

Post Script: Is it ok to say that Genghis Khan and his sons and grandsons favoritely practiced what the Nazis would much later call 'BlitzKrieg' ('Lightning War'), which is the beating heart of tactical 'Shock & Awe'? Specifically, as has been said before in this thread (between the lines?), BlitzKrieg is about punching through a given, narrow (preferably the strongest) point in the enemy lines: swiftly, and getting around behind the established lines (of enemy resistance) to flank him in a relatively short time, before he (enemy) has time to effectively respond. A key part of lightning war is that the flanking maneuver is fortified by holding Infantry and/or Calvary in front of the enemy even as other elements of the flanking army carry out their attack. This requires the enemy to fight on two - very swiftly established - fronts. Refer 'instant pincer movement'.

Refer Sun Tzu's (Pre Christian), The Art of War, and Karl Von Clausewitz' 1879 published On War.

( Refer, Bob Dylan's , "Ten thousand drummers whose hands are a-blazin', " )

One more thing, Mr. Fraggle Rocker: Combat, especially heavy, close quarters combat, is categorically ineffable. Since I know - or have known - many who have been there (WW I, WW II, Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, Central America, Grenada, Persian Gulf, Iraq and Afghanistan), and began studying it since my Mom lost three of her brothers in (who I knew, during) WW II (for you and yours), and have been immediately along side of it myself (long before I promoted myself to ordained Chaplain), and neither I nor anyone who's been there can really exteriorize the personal experience and the unique, personalized (chemical fingerprint), adrenaline-spiked-body-chemistry (much): please convey to this thread (some more), your august understanding of the (presently derailed), O.P. subject.

Here's an esoteric list of the affordable expendables:

Of course you have the opportunity to apply these key words and phrases to your Google or MSN search mode.

_____________________

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Afghanistan War

Afghanistan War Suicide Statistics

Hidden Toll of US Wars in Afghanistan and Iraq: ‘Surge’ in Military Suicides. RAWA, 2011

Soldiers’ Suicide Rate on Record Pace, Washington Post, 2008

One In Five Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans Suffer from PTSD or Major Depression, RAND, 2008

America suffers suicide epidemic among traumatised army veterans, London Times, 2007
120 War Vets Commit Suicide Each Week, Alternet, 2007

(Houston - We do not have a <'What?'> problem?)

Dear Fraggle Rocker:
Your Post #38, above, 7 February '14, and my response to it in this Post, unfortunately reveals your articulate bias against (especially) combat veterans. I do not wish to argue this clarified point with you, but I will do so if you insist on pressing the established issue any further. Please accept a left-handed compliment for your candid temerity and what may be learned from it.
Indeed, your category-net throws a wide mesh over a very large age group (25 & under) - an entire population of known 'risk takers' and 'thrill seekers'. Even as we speak, the Winter Olympics are underway in Sochi, Russia: behold the massive age-group you have boldly condemned and richly condescended; the very same age-group known for millennia to be the prime military conscriptions. As a Moderator you do have the power to eradicate this entire thread, or any portion of it, if you wish. I hope you realize what can be learned from this thread, and especially what it has culminated to, regarding your contributions to it.
__________________________

( While you were out: Molly *Keyboard MacColly < a retired B.A.R.; *the most formidable counter-offensive weapon in el mundo > offers an abbreviated course on the 7 League History & Tactics of hegemony - http://forums.delphiforums.com/subedai/start - with hopes that attentive sentinels do not spill their tea. )

[/B]Por favore, Senor, 'demystify' combat (up close and personal) for the incumbent readership.


:argue:

 

[Kaiduorkhon]

Quote Originally Posted by Kaiduorkhon View Post

The incumbent, madly administered 'government'. . . .

"The only president in my post-childhood lifetime whom I had any respect for was Eisenhower. Since then some (Clinton at least tried to bring the budget under control) have been measurably better than others (Backward Baby Bush should have been prosecuted for treason for protecting his family's friends in Saudi Arabia from being rightfully identified as the perpetrators of 9/11, or at the very least his pre-senile dementia should have been made public), but none of them have been worthy of the office".

"I always slap my forehead when I read sycophantic praise of Jimmy Carter. He's the bastard who created the Taliban!"

Jimmy Carter is also 'the bastard' who made an attempt to rescue the hostages in Tehran, and failed, because the mission helicopters were sabotaged from the inside: so that George Bush Sr. and Ronald Reagan could beat him in the forthcoming next election (1980). Other than that qualification, I agree with you.

... is not only out to obliterate the much controversied 2nd Amendment <of Right to Bear Arms>. . . .

"Like most firearm apologists you gloss over the full text of the amendment. The words "well regulated militia" are prominent. There's nothing "well-regulated" about firearms in a country in which more of its citizens are killed by gun violence than by road accidents; in which every gun is five times as likely to kill the owner, a family member, a neighbor or a harmless stranger due to anger, confusion, accident, incompetence or impulsive suicide, as it is to be used in actual self defense against a human or wild animal; in which a mother can openly acquire a full arsenal of automatic weapons and make them available to her unbalanced son (Adam Lanza), with the enthusiastic cooperation of the NRA; and in which Americans with guns kill 100x as many of us per decade as terrorists, yet the former have Congress in their pocket while we're giving up our constitutional rights, making a shambles of the federal budget, taunting the world's one billion Muslims into hating us, and becoming an embarrassment to our allies, in a quixotic attempt to eradicate the latter".

Adam Lanza is the infamous monster who murdered 20 school children and 6 heroically martyred female school teachers in 2012 @ Sandy Hook Elementary School, Newtown, Connecticutt. We have understandably learned much about his victims. Why don't we know a hell of a lot more about Adam Lanza? Much more, exactly and experientially where he came from with all of the inevitably devilish details?[/I]On the other hand, given the timing and the fact that a key *National Rifle Association spokesman lives in and is employed out of that community, isn't there cause to flag that fact? *Is this a 'coincidence'?

Any who would protest that 'they' would never do a thing like 'program' a particularly horrific hit upon those (particular) coordinates: has altogether forgotten what 'they' are capable of: refer, Vietnam (if you ever experience any kind of 'dotage' around this eternal lesson: this keyboard will - as it has ever since that undeclared war drove us off that Asiatic peninsula - exact a permanent payment from such 'forgetfulness' for a very long time: much more than the decade duration of that completely insane, massive murdering machine. Here, and There...).

Then there's always (also) Waco, Texas, under a state of siege for 51 days on live network TV, the very world witnessing all of it, without a word (not a peep or even an audibly flatulent moment, directed at Texas) from the incumbent Atty. General, Janet Reno, or W.J. Clinton in the White House. Over two dozen small children there, quite everyone knowing that: while 'their' helicopters hover over the designated 'compound', blasting massive decibels all night long to sleep-deprive all residents beneath their chopper blades....

'They' cut off the electricity and water. 'They' fired hi powered bullets through the sheet-rock walls. 'They' encored with the murder of scores of innocent people including all the children: except 7 survivors. 'They' were and are the BATF and FBI. The media designated 'cult leader', David Koresh, became the focus of the controversy, displacing the real reason the entire mass-murder started: two adult males who had federal firearms licenses to own specific types of firearms, and, were 'checked out as cleared' by the ATF, under the Bush administration; but, for some 'reason', were being checked again, under the four month incumbent Clinton admistration; neither one of whom was David Koresh (the guy who was diversionarily accused (never having gone to trial) of child molestation after the federal agents pinned down the entire 'compound' with all of it's 'cult' designated occupants). 'They' murdered over 70 innocent people, burned them alive and proclaimed it a 'mass suicide': because, every one of them was witness to who fired the first shots, after the chore of a social worker or a sheriff knocking on the door, was escalated - from the outset - with armored federal vehicles orbiting the 'compound'... And shots fired through the front door from the outside in (the forensic evidence marked metal door, 'disappeared', while the press was held off a mile away). 'They' refrigerated the perished bodies. The electricity dependent refrigeration 'failed', causing the posthumous evidence to decay, severely handicapping forensic pathologists from determining cause of death. 70+ times over. No witnesses, save the 'whacked out' 7 survivors...

('We had to destroy the Branch Davidians and their children, in order to save them?')

Your recitation of the antiquated firearms issue rings out familiar as flea market bargains. Yes, there's a lot of bad stuff that happens due to 'firearms'; no meaningfully denying it. Bottom line on that is what it's always been: speaking of percentages, you didn't factor-in 'per capita' - there's any number of unstable nations ruled by 'tribal leaders' who are not only distributing small arms to their organized thugs, they're in the international black market weapons trading business.

While you're preoccupied with predictably harping on the inevitably circuitous debate focusing on the 2nd Amendment's reference to 'a well regulated militia', having been mainstream-media-programmed to engage that hotly seasoned argument, you've excluded the 'well regulated' militias you've not heard of. Like the Boy Scouts competition at the local shooting range, the international Olympics firearms competition; etcetera's, etcetera's, etcetera's... It certainly is clear why you don't like the NRA. What of the constant state of undeclared wars - and the staggering expense in people and money - perpetuated by the United States? The best government Corporate State money can buy (and/or extort). Do you really think this is 'necessary for the economy?' You know, What The Flock Are We Doing In Iraq? (The Persian Gulf, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Grenada, Central America, Cuba <Do not tell me 'we' weren't in Cuba>). Instead, you and your ilk point to the KKK and/or similar 'American Nazi'/'White Power' whackos: ('wackos' is optional, but doesn't phonetically sound out as well).

Gaining some treble and bass on that note, you predictably speak only of the flip side of that issue, while the flop side is the exemplary 'Fast & Furious'. You are invited to do the homework, but while you're at it, be reminded that 'Fast & Furious' is about a bunch of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms federal agents swapping small arms weapons for drugs contingent to Mexican gun & drug runners, and getting caught; then failing to successfully blame it on licensed American fire arms dealers. Mark it well, this was a very unusual circumstances of the subjected bad guys: 'getting caught'. We may only speculate on how much of this is the past and present status quo. Moreover, second only to the Petroleum industry, the Weapons Industry is the most wealthy, powerful industry in the world. Relatively speaking, it doesn't make a killing selling firearms to the private sector. You, Mr. Moderator, have selected the private sector - preferably one individual at a time - to dump your misplaced, foreclosed, flaming filibuster upon. Why don't you go after your so called 'heads of State', about what the hell they're doing with our groaning, tax-money-supported military people and budget...

Do you grok the full import of American tax money spent on 'private contractors'? The 'Black Budget'? 'Mobile kill teams'? 'Merc's'?

Have you ever heard of the (exemplary) 'Halliburton Co.'? Can you spell it? Can you dog-paddle in 'BlackWater U.S.A.'? Are you shielded in Armor Group? Can you beat Hart Security?

Summarily, since you have read my Post as you respond to it, you apparently have not noticed that I did not initiate the 'gun' issue; neither do I wish to posture my 'apologist' stance in this thread, at all. That is made very clear and you are correspondingly readable as saying I 'glossed over' your offered clause from the 2nd Amendment. As you probably know, I have a thread entitled 'The Gunsmith's Apprentice & Military Chaplin' in this forum and you are invited to gas me there, but not here, thank you.

There are scores of documentary books released and still culminating, authored by former or incumbent politicians, social scientists and military brass along with a host of forensic scientists and explosives experts who report that the Twin Towers and Pentagon catastrophes were carried out by very high ranking rogue elements of the United States government.

"There are wackos everywhere who believe these assertions (*'Belief' is it? Are you baptizing and/or otherwise anointing the authority of who you do - and do not - 'believe'?) which are almost as believable as divine creation and are often perpetrated by the same demographic. Apparently there's at least one here among us."

Sound and fury, signifying little zip codes in your head that tell you what to trespass, on this hijacked thread?

While we're out of this thread's box, apparently you and your directly implied name-calling are not even cursorily familiar with the list of authors and titles who and which address the issue you have 'glossed over'; made yourself perfectly clear on, as an anti-gun nut. You speak of the quantitative inventory of American owned firearms without making any mention to the doomed economy and how valuable - especially certain - gun collections are (hardware, far more durable than worthless, Federal Reserve paper money). I did make a point of specifying that the authors (producers, directors, et al) of responsibly documentary works are all over the net with click-ons you critically allude-to but do not name or attend to: this 'whacko' wishes to be 'apparent' in the afore-referenced thread (The Apprentice Gunsmith & Military Chaplin). Thank you once again, Mr. Moderator.

"This was not just a terrorist attack! This was an act of war! You are either for us, or against us!"

"Yes, an act of war committed by Saudi Arabia. In order to avoid making Americans hate the country from which once a month photos emerge of citizens marching in the street carrying signs saying "Death to America the Great Satan," he deflected the blame to Saddam Hussein, who had nothing to do with it, whose country was arguably the most secular, pro-western nation in the Middle East, and whose death led to the disappearance of what little stability the Middle East had, as Iraq became a Shiite-controlled nation like Iran and Syria".

I agree with everything you say in the immediate-above paragraph, though you seem to have forgotten Mr. Bush's delivered (fear factored) ultimatum..

(Here you friggin go, again...)

Quote Originally Posted by Captain Kremmen View Post
If veterans are being targeted to remove their weapons, that is discriminatory.

"No it's not. As a demographic, they have a frighteningly high rate of violence. (Even their rate of road accidents is alarming--they miss the thrills and risk of combat) Admittedly it often manifests as suicide, but what's wrong with trying to stop people from killing themselves? Hell, we won't even let elderly people in hopeless pain do it!"

Aircraft pilots and a disproportionately high percentage of people with high risk jobs, along with cross-sectionally considered young people are also on your hit list. That's why driver's & car insurance for those 25 years and under is disproportionately high.

The key words in the above paragraph are 'As a demographic'. Apparently you're a 'one size fits all' kind'a guy. The resigned-under-heavy-fire former Secretary of the self-destructive Homeland Security Act, Ms. Janet Napolitano, has a studio apartment folding bed, reserved for you.

Get (acquire) a grip... (refer, 'grasp').

There is a documented incident of Truly Your's saving several lives in 1997, with a firearm and without harming anyone: in the thread title, 'The Gunsmith's Apprentice & Military Chaplin'. Kindly read it and confine your SuperTorqued-flaming-filibuster platform to that location.

How many times need you remind me to remind you to unleash your misplaced, ongoing argumental saw in this thread, to the thread you've already been referred to, twice? Please do not furthermore hijack this thread with your hair-trigger, off-topic anti-gun soapbox and hauntingly hysterical rhetoric.

The below subjection of 'guns' is a qualified response to what Captain Kremmer brought to this thread, as my response to him clarifies...

Quote Originally Posted by Kaiduorkhon View Post

Upon the tentatively considered tactic of Japan attacking the American mainland with Infantry Troops in 1941, Admiral Yamamoto (who was educated in the United states) correctly advised his gathered peers and superiors: "If you deploy mass Infantry against America, there will be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

"It's often written as "gun" rather than "rifle," (*No shit?) surely because of the difficulty in translation between two languages as astoundingly different as English and Japanese (*Refer the previous asterisk). As later posts point out, the veracity of this quote is quite controversial. I was amazed that it is not in Snopes.com. Even America's bullshit-detector-of-record can't settle it." (*Your allegory 'point' here, is without any substance at all...)

Again, I did not initiate this stretched out subjection of 'guns'. Your above short paragraph belabors a point finer than the sum of it's squeeking parts. English, Japanese: in this case it does not make a whit of difference.

America's civilian sector is the most heavily armed non military populace in el mundo. Where and from whom did you learn otherwise?

"Because of the inherent ambiguity of the construction of the sentence, that depends on interpretation. The percentage of the population who own guns is not as large as in some countries, but the size of each individual arsenal is frightening. Or at least it should be to any peace-loving citizen of global civilization".

I've already responded to that inherently off-topic question in this thread.

'...citizen of global civilization'.
Please explain your intended meaning here. Are you another blanched New World Order (trash the Constitution) salesman?

Post Script: Is it ok to say that Genghis Khan and his sons and grandsons favoritely practiced what the Nazis would much later call 'BlitzKrieg' ('Lightning War'), which is the beating heart of tactical 'Shock & Awe'? Specifically, as has been said before in this thread (between the lines?), BlitzKrieg is about punching through a given, narrow (preferably the strongest) point in the enemy lines: swiftly, and getting around behind the established lines (of enemy resistance) to flank him in a relatively short time, before he (enemy) has time to effectively respond. A key part of lightning war is that the flanking maneuver is fortified by holding Infantry and/or Calvary in front of the enemy even as other elements of the flanking army carry out their attack. This requires the enemy to fight on two - very swiftly established - fronts. Refer 'instant pincer movement'.

Refer Sun Tzu's (Pre Christian), The Art of War, and Karl Von Clausewitz' 1879 published On War.

( Refer, Bob Dylan's , "Ten thousand drummers whose hands are a-blazin', " )

One more thing, Mr. Fraggle Rocker: Combat, especially heavy, close quarters combat, is categorically ineffable. Since I know - or have known - many who have been there (WW I, WW II, Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, Central America, Grenada, Persian Gulf, Iraq and Afghanistan), and began studying it since my Mom lost three of her brothers in (who I knew, during) WW II (for you and yours), and have been immediately along side of it myself (long before I promoted myself to ordained Chaplain), and neither I nor anyone who's been there can really exteriorize the personal experience and the unique, personalized (chemical fingerprint), adrenaline-spiked-body-chemistry (much): please convey to this thread (some more), your august understanding of the (presently derailed), O.P. subject.

Here's an esoteric list of the affordable expendables:

Of course you have the opportunity to apply these key words and phrases to your Google or MSN search mode.

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Afghanistan War

Afghanistan War Suicide Statistics

Hidden Toll of US Wars in Afghanistan and Iraq: ‘Surge’ in Military Suicides. RAWA, 2011

Soldiers’ Suicide Rate on Record Pace, Washington Post, 2008

One In Five Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans Suffer from PTSD or Major Depression, RAND, 2008

America suffers suicide epidemic among traumatised army veterans, London Times, 2007

120 War Vets Commit Suicide Each Week, Alternet, 2007

(Houston - We do not have a <'What?'> problem?)

Dear Fraggle Rocker:
Your Post #38, above, 7 February '14, and my response to it in this Post, unfortunately reveals your articulate bias against (especially) combat veterans. I do not wish to argue this clarified point with you, but I will do so if you insist on pressing the established issue any further. Please accept a left-handed compliment for your candid temerity and what may be learned from it.
Indeed, your category-net throws a wide mesh over a very large age group (25 & under) - an entire population of known 'risk takers' and 'thrill seekers'. Even as we speak, the Winter Olympics are underway in Sochi, Russia: behold the massive age-group you have boldly condemned and richly condescended; the very same age-group known for millennia to be the prime military conscriptions. As a Moderator you do have the power to eradicate this entire thread, or any portion of it, if you wish. I hope you realize what can be learned from this thread, and especially what it has culminated to, regarding your contributions to it.
__________________________

( While you were out: Molly *Keyboard MacColly < a retired B.A.R.; *the most formidable counter-offensive weapon in el mundo > offers an abbreviated course on the 7 League History & Tactics of hegemony - http://forums.delphiforums.com/subedai/start - with hopes that attentive sentinels do not spill their tea. )

[/B]Por favore, Senor, 'demystify' combat (up close and personal) for the incumbent readership.


:argue:

Please pardon this writer's misspelling of 'cavalry' (wrongly spelled 'Calvary') in Post #39.

The term *'peace loving citizen of global civilization' takes the high ground-within and disclaims the abounding intrigue and duplicity-throughout Post#38: in the same Post, the *former 'peace loving' (neurolinguistically programmed, 'verbal judo' practicing) adjectives appear. This Keyboard recognizes no high ground for the marked - ground-grabbing - adversary (or whomsoever may follow him) to take.

Post Script
Dear Fraggle Rocker: You give me no choice, sir. You've attacked with a will those who have seen enough of it; since they've returned to be ambushed by 'friendly fire'. Unfortunately this is not a new turn of events (though the 'reasons' have somewhat changed), since ten annual shifts of Vietnam Vets returned home to be demonized and 'greeted' by practiced 'Welcome Home committees', who scheduled their tarmac and airport-depot-ambushing ranks. Moreover, nearly all of them were draftees (Canada, Mexico, Federal prison, a fugitive status, or the Army), unlike the volunteer armies of today, who at least know the warning offered by Vietnam Vets (on the other hand, today's volunteer military includes alternatively-joined Navy, Marines, Coast Guard and Air Force <and generally consists of people who cannot find secure employments and family benefits, elsewhere>).

Who could have foreseen after two consecutive World Wars and Korea, the vilification of ('Support Our Troops!') our own Veterans? On their Native Turf?

You have actively and aggressively defended and endorsed The Homeland Security Act's - very specifically worded - targeting of 'returning Veterans'; 120 of whom perish weekly, under their own volition.

To all outward appearances, you and your advocates have chosen what you believe to be 'the winning side'. Indeed, 'sides' have been created and are taken; the thread-bare tactic of 'division & conquest' is revealed as long-planned. The fear-factored ultimatum is boldly installed, since the day after 9/11 and ever since: all in the (Orwell predicted) name of public 'protection and safety'.

You sir, are all wrong, all day long. May God bless America (What's left of it).

Please reconsider the (OP) title of this entire thread.

(The anonymously attached, judgmental 'thumbs down' icon appears at the top of this Post, for the first time in this thread. May it be known what forum executive is responsible for it, and more importantly, why?)

"When we cease from exploration, we shall arrive where we started, and know the place for the first time." - T. S. Eliot

eace: