Science or god?

H

Hevene

Registered Senior Member
Me and my friends came across this discussion about whether we should believe in science or god and whether god exists at all. I sure want some input from everyone.
For me, I believe in God but they are outside our universe. According to the second law of thermaldynamics that disorders increases in a closed system. If god is within our universe that sure they'll undergo aging so that the only way to explain they live forever is for them to live outside our universe.
It is better to believe in science that it is the only way to save us from disease. With the nano-tech, genetic evolution and quatum theroy, it might help us mankind to achieve eternal youth, while god only provides us with mental support.
 
Hevene ...

Believe whatever, whichever, or any combination you care to ... it isn't
going to make a difference in the end either for you or our species.

Just do me a favor and don't try and convince me you've found the answer ...
I've go my own trip to complete ;)

PS I think one of the other forums may have been more appropriate
for this thread ... but that's just my opinion :D
 
Hevene,

Welcome fellow Australian (even if you are from Sydney :)).

There's no need to make a choice between either God or Science. Both can happily co-exist. Science and religion cover separate areas. Science is knowledge based. Religion relies on faith. There is plenty of room in science for God. Perhaps God made the universe. Perhaps God exists somehow beyond the universe. Perhaps God interferes daily in the workings of the universe, but in such a way that we can't tell. Perhaps God directs the collapse of quantum wavepackets. Or maybe there is no God. Who knows?

Believe whatever you feel is right, but don't stop searching, and don't close your mind to either science or the possibility of God.
 
If I want to know I look to the Sciences to show me. If I want to feel I look to the Arts.

A lot of people feel the presence of gods. I feel the presence of Campbell's soup cans.

You know what they say about beauty?
 
Ok, this really gets my giblets... why make a distinction between science OR God? Why are they so totally incompatable? James, I disagree, one can know God. Ever since I began in Philosophy, I have never had a problem understanding the concept of the Perfect Being, a creator which made a universe with such perfect order.

Either way, Mr G, the only art that makes you "feel" is debased post-modernist shit. The whole of art is designed to spark thought and discussion, rather than visceral emotion. I'll admit that there have been some very good postmodern works, especially the Soup Can, and the painting of the comic strip panel... those are at least more intellectually sophisticated than hurling a tennisball of paint at a canvas.

I will, however give that religion is often incompatable with science. But I don't think that one can confuse the power structure of an entity with the being that they worship. I also have to think that, in reality, government and science are incompatable for pretty much the same reasons. Science educates us, and makes us less susceptable to the machinations of the ruling class, whichever that might be (in theory) and therefore causes a tension where the ruling class has to allow some growth in knowledge, lest their entity fall, but not allow their subjects to learn too much, lest they realise that they are being taken advantage of in the most hideous way. Of course, modern society has found that the best way of allowing science to flourish while keeping it out of the hands of the general population is to reduce all knowledge to 10-second sound bites and "your heath and you" reports, which can change week to week, all of which has been divested of any context or practical data.

Anyway, I hope this helps some.
 
i disagree with most of the opinions here. i don't believe religion is compatible with science or that there's plenty of room in science for religion. at least not the religions we know today.
i think the religions we have today are primitive, science is much more wide.

most of the things in the catholic bible, for instance, were already discredit, specially when it comes to the science stuff, and people still believe in this religion, i find highly unlikely that a god would be so stupid in science to say such things as "the sun orbits around the earth". i think this religion, as others, were invented by men that wanted a meaning for his life and the universe. if you study the beginning of most religions, you will see that they came from the sumerian religion, people who lived in mesopotamia (middle east) about 4000 years before jesus christ. most of the bible stories were originated from sumerian stories. it is obvious that is one big religion that got spread and eventually modified the way they tell it, but the stories are the same.

i think either there's no god and an event that we are not able to understand (yet) took place or there is a god but it is different from all we know (that's why we can't call it "he" or "she") and all we can imagine. in both cases it will take a long time to discover because our brain is to primitive to understand it (it all comes down to selective nature -- our nature doesn't need to understand it in other to survive). if we will someday discover it, i'm not sure, but it will surely take so much time to discover and to be accepted. i mean, even einstein didn't believe in quantum mechanics.
 
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Lua,

Well said, and I completely agree with you.

And welcome to sciforums.

Hope we will see more of your thoughts.

Cris
 
thank you, chris. it's nice to know i'm not alone among all of this...i've been posting in other sections of the site. i just can't come here too often because there's so much bs.

i know we are supposed to respect people's beliefs, but ot's hard when we show evidence and they prefer to believe in their faith that can be expleined even by evolution or culture. it's definetely easier to lay back and swallow everything than go in the field and look for yourself.

take care.
 
I totally agree with James R.

Perhaps God exists somehow beyond the universe. Perhaps God interferes daily in the workings of the universe, but in such a way that we can't tell. Perhaps God directs the collapse of quantum wavepackets. Or maybe there is no God. Who knows?
Click to expand...

May I help you...? :D

That's what it seems...

Well... God is beyond the Universe... but at the same time He is within us... how can this be possible...? Perhaps God has a kind of projection, like light does. Light can appear as particle and as wave... so God can be within us (in a "wave state") and beyond the Universe (as a "particle"). It all depends in the perspective of the observer. ;)

The Bible says we live "in the shadow of the Almighty". What does it means? Perhaps it means that the Universe is God's shadow... God is perfect, the Universe is not. Perhaps the Universe is an imperfect copy of God... and it's called Satan's world. Then you have the whole concept of Light and Darkness and Dualist Universe. The shadow is dark, but God is made by light. That explain many things about the Universe. The Universe seems to be an illusion that cames from God, who's perfection Himself.

... ;)

Love,
Nelson
 
Truthseeker: a LOT of high modern religious figures have stopped taking the stories and statements in their respective texts like you mentioned literally and believe them to be poetic.

Lua: "i think this religion, as others, were invented by men that wanted a meaning for his life and the universe."

Personally, I think it's more likely that religion was invented for other reasons. For one, ancient tries needed a leader, and a shaman was most often the leader of the tribe. The shaman would be a 'religious' leader, someone who was believed to talk to the dead or something similar. I believe it either originated from need for leadership, or, more likely, from a need to explain the Universe. Look at how desperatly man even know desires to understand his environment. Thousands of years ago man did not have the capabilities to have large understanding of the universe, and 'God' was a simple explination.

Anyway, welcoe to sciforums and nice post!
 
Tyler,

a LOT of high modern religious figures have stopped taking the stories and statements in their respective texts like you mentioned literally and believe them to be poetic.
Click to expand...

Probably because anyone wants to listen to it... Anyone likes the Truth... Like Jesus said... if it's from God, the world won't listen to it...

Anyways... it's not only Religious, but it's Scientifical too...

Love,
Nelson
 
Originally posted by Hevene
Me and my friends came across this discussion about whether we should believe in science or god and whether god exists at all. I sure want some input from everyone.
For me, I believe in God but they are outside our universe. According to the second law of thermaldynamics that disorders increases in a closed system. If god is within our universe that sure they'll undergo aging so that the only way to explain they live forever is for them to live outside our universe.
It is better to believe in science that it is the only way to save us from disease. With the nano-tech, genetic evolution and quatum theroy, it might help us mankind to achieve eternal youth, while god only provides us with mental support.
Click to expand...

I would just like to quickly point out that you first have to show more conclusively that the universe is a closed system.

Also, why do the theists jump on the thermodynamics bandwagon so much?
 
I believe we created God to explain natural occurances and anything we could not understand. Faith however is something we all need. Not a religon but faith the emotion I suppose. Science is what gives us medical technology, computers and, well, everything we use today.

Its funny though, that die hard believers in God (christian Religon) are sterotyped to disbeileve in science. And probably the number one example of such an argument is Evolution Vs. Creationism.
 
Tristan,

The Bible explain Faith. So, you can read it and, using common sense, draw your own conclusions...

Its funny though, that die hard believers in God (christian Religon) are sterotyped to disbeileve in science. And probably the number one example of such an argument is Evolution Vs. Creationism.
Click to expand...

In my church, about one month ago, the pastor talked about Quantum Physics.
That's not the reality for all Christianism, but surely for some...

Love,
Nelson
 
Northwind ...

"Also, why do the theists jump on the thermodynamics bandwagon so much?

I don't know. Maybe because it has something to do with hot air?

Take care ;)
 
Hello, haven't been here for a long time, I seemed to have missed a lot.

Truthseeker: a LOT of high modern religious figures have stopped taking the stories and statements in their respective texts like you mentioned literally and believe them to be poetic.
Click to expand...

I am still not sure whether god exists or not, may be it is like Truthseeker said:
Perhaps God has a kind of projection, like light does. Light can appear as particle and as wave... so God can be within us (in a "wave state") and beyond the Universe (as a "particle"). It all depends in the perspective of the observer.
Click to expand...

For all the believers, I think the bible could be a representative of everything, ie. the creation of the world etc. But we could not take it exactly, as the time frame inside the bible just couldn't allow the creation of all the moutains we have and etc.

But how can we even be sure of science, the theories we have are made to fit a certain observation. Like the Quntum Theory, it was first discovered to explain the photoelectric effect and black body radiation since the classical physics just doesn't fit.
May be in a few decades, everything we know now will be proven wrong.
 
The beauty of science is that we can consider things 'theories'.

Ask a deeply religious person if they think their beliefs are 'theories' or hard 'facts' and what do you think you'll get?

Most orthodox religious people will NEVER open their mind to possibilities of incorrectness (is that a word?) in their texts.
 
Hevene,

For all the believers, I think the bible could be a representative of everything, ie. the creation of the world etc. But we could not take it exactly, as the time frame inside the bible just couldn't allow the creation of all the moutains we have and etc.
Click to expand...

Yeah... I've been meditating on that. I'm already drawing conclusions. I think I'll start a new thread...

May be in a few decades, everything we know now will be proven wrong.
Click to expand...

Halleluiah!!
Finally someone understood that!

Tyler,

Most orthodox religious people will NEVER open their mind to possibilities of incorrectness (is that a word?) in their texts.
Click to expand...

That's true... but I believe that is because it came from God...

Love,
Nelson
 
At a very basic level truthseeker, what action shows more strength in an individual; being able to admitt they were wrong or being so stubborn that you can not admitt a single thing is slightly off.
 
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