Sacrifice

Mohsen Ezz El-Din Al-Bakr

Registered Member
At the dawn of human awareness, at the beginning of human life on this earth, humans were simple in their thinking and in their understanding of natural phenomena such as night and day, rain, thunder, lightning, and the like. These phenomena aroused fear and terror within them. When primitive humans were unable to explain these phenomena, they attributed them to a supernatural force that controlled them and controlled their lives. This supernatural force was not tangible to them; in other words, it was a force beyond nature—a metaphysical force. Thus, primitive humans believed in the existence of a spiritual entity that controlled natural phenomena and human life. This was the beginning of the idea of religion among early humans, and the image of a fearsome god was formed in people’s minds—one who causes disasters such as earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, and other dangers that primitive humans experienced at that time. They attributed all these calamities to this terrifying god. Therefore, the idea of offering sacrifices and offerings arose in order to please this god and extinguish the fire of his anger. Human sacrifices were considered the most precious, because this god would not be satisfied except with what was most valuable.
With the development of human awareness, this image of the god also evolved and became more benevolent toward humans, until he came to be called “the Lord.” One of his functions became the upbringing and reform of humans. A set of rituals, laws, and commandments were established to carry out the will of this god. Sacrifices shifted from human to animal offerings, yet people still offered the most valuable animals, such as cattle and sheep.
Likewise, the idea of self-mortification inspired by sacrifice evolved into the concept of fasting. Hunger and thirst, and the accompanying deprivation of many comforts of an increasingly developed life, were believed to appease the anger of this god. Over time, the idea of fasting and offering sacrifices to the god evolved further, acquiring specific days, conditions, and rules, and becoming surrounded by sanctity. They became foundational elements in shaping the personality of a believer in any god and religion. Therefore, fasting and sacrifice are found in all religions and are interconnected, and their concepts and philosophies have developed over time.
Below are some of the most prominent myths and stories that resemble the story of Abraham’s ransom of his son outside the Abrahamic religions, with references to historical and literary sources that discuss them:
The Myth of Iphigenia – Greek Mythology
In Greek mythology, King Agamemnon is asked to sacrifice his daughter Iphigenia to appease the goddess Artemis, who was angered by an offense he committed against her. In some versions of the myth, Artemis intervenes at the last moment, replaces Iphigenia with a deer, and transports her to the land of Tauris to become a priestess in her temple.
Source: Wikipedia – Iphigenia
Hinduism – Yajna Rituals
In ancient Vedic traditions, yajna rituals involved offering sacrifices, including animals, to the gods. Over time, these rituals evolved to become symbolic and non-violent, with real offerings replaced by the recitation of mantras and meditation.
Source: Wikipedia – Yajna
Canaanite and Phoenician Myths – Carthage
Archaeological evidence suggests that the Phoenicians in Carthage practiced rituals involving the sacrifice of children to the gods, especially at sites known as tophets. Some modern research indicates that these practices were real, supported by evidence of children’s bone remains at ritual sites.
Source: University of Oxford – Child sacrifice in Carthage
Celtic Myths – Royal Sacrifice
Archaeological evidence, such as preserved bog bodies in Ireland, suggests that the Celts practiced rituals involving the sacrifice of kings in times of crisis. These bodies show signs of violent death, supporting the idea of human sacrifice in religious rituals.
Source: Irish Central – Human sacrifice among the Celts
Conclusion:
The idea of sacrifice or ransom recurs in many cultures and myths, reflecting humanity’s struggle between obedience and mercy, and the search for the satisfaction of higher powers. These stories evolve from human sacrifice to symbolic redemption, indicating the development of religious thinking over the ages. This view holds that religions are merely a human construct with no relation to a deity hidden in the sky or the rest of the team of fairies and invisible friends.
Best regards,
Always giving
Mohsen Ezz El-Din Al-Bakri
 
Abraham was stopped from his sacrifice of his son, by the intervention of other than "God".

This can also have an allegorical interpretation of the sacrifice of the mental ego not the spiritual child Self.
 
well, think of the 'sacrifice' story of Cain and Abel. He was the smart guy, offered up meat that according to the bible nobody ate until the opening of Noah's ark door. they were all vegetarians before the flood,. so, Abel was smart, " sacrificing" the meat destined for the dump, that neither the dogs or even Hyenas or lyons would eat.
Smart people are hated, and that is why they killed Abel . and have others like him ever since.
nothing sacred about these sacrifices
Hopefully there is merit to the death of Jesus, and latter day martyrs.
 
well, think of the 'sacrifice' story of Cain and Abel. He was the smart guy, offered up meat that according to the bible nobody ate until the opening of Noah's ark door. they were all vegetarians before the flood,. so, Abel was smart, " sacrificing" the meat destined for the dump, that neither the dogs or even Hyenas or lyons would eat.
Smart people are hated, and that is why they killed Abel . and have others like him ever since.
nothing sacred about these sacrifices
Hopefully there is merit to the death of Jesus, and latter day martyrs.
The guide and methodology of the Bronze Age goat herders... we cannot continue to beautify that day.
 
The guide and methodology of the Bronze Age goat herders... we cannot continue to beautify that day.
well, all our ancestors must have passed through the bronze age, or we would not be here. The books of the Abrahamic religions are, to say the least Literary Classics, so rather than quoting Shakespeare, Goethe or star war heroes, why not stay with the accepted norm?
 
Shakespeare is real, but your friends are not.

Reading Shakespeare will not lead to war or hostility... while the nonsense of the Abrahamic religions makes you, each time, antagonize half the world's population, depending on the religion you follow. These are lies that have caused catastrophic wars of extermination because of a collection of myths.
 
The collection of myth certainly does not hold a monopoly of exterminations and war.
Peacefuller religions built walls to avoid war, like the Chinese. Massive 'smart' Walls between contestants would have prevented the current sacrifice of 100 of 1000s of victims in all the running conflicts.

Talking about worthy sacrifices : how about the likes of Mme Curie? the aviation pioneers? " Opfer muessen gebracht werden"?
 
The collection of myth certainly does not hold a monopoly of exterminations and war.
Peacefuller religions built walls to avoid war, like the Chinese. Massive 'smart' Walls between contestants would have prevented the current sacrifice of 100 of 1000s of victims in all the running conflicts.

Talking about worthy sacrifices : how about the likes of Mme Curie? the aviation pioneers? " Opfer muessen gebracht werden"?
What distinguishes religion is its justification of these crimes. If this world has any dignity, religious figures must be held accountable for every drop of blood and every woman taken captive throughout history. You will find no one justifying Hitler's crimes while you stand by without shame.In justifying all those absurdities, tragedies, and disasters, the world still suffers from your myths. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the clearest example; had it not been for the religious superstitions on both sides, none of those tragedies would have occurred.
 
The collection of myth certainly does not hold a monopoly of exterminations and war.
Peacefuller religions built walls to avoid war, like the Chinese. Massive 'smart' Walls between contestants would have prevented the current sacrifice of 100 of 1000s of victims in all the running conflicts.

Talking about worthy sacrifices : how about the likes of Mme Curie? the aviation pioneers? " Opfer muessen gebracht werden"?
This is a fallacy. When confronted with blatant truth, you say, "So-and-so also did it," even if it means the murderer saying, "So-and-so also killed," to deflect blame. If there is any accusation against religion, it is that it robs its followers of their minds and makes them like This stupidity
 
What distinguishes religion is its justification of these crimes. If this world has any dignity, religious figures must be held accountable for every drop of blood and every woman taken captive throughout history. You will find no one justifying Hitler's crimes while you stand by without shame.In justifying all those absurdities, tragedies, and disasters, the world still suffers from your myths. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the clearest example; had it not been for the religious superstitions on both sides, none of those tragedies would have occurred.
You absolutely misunderstand my replies. Remember, I asked about the merit of the sacrifices, the executions of those opposed to Hitler's war, that was supported by the Catholic and Protestant state churches. The NSDAP of course were developing their own 'nordic' mythology.
 
Sacrifice is vital on multiple levels. On the most surface-level, it is giving a gift to the gods, by which we create a cycle of reciprocal goodwill-- what Hellenic polytheists ancient and modern call kharis. You have to put yourself in the headspace of ancient people; without a highly monetized economy, ubiquitous market systems, and commodification, so much ran on agreements, honor, and the gift cycle. That extends to mankind's interaction with the gods; and because the gods are inclined to benevolence, when we give to them, they tend to give back. It is both beneficial and pragmatic, but also a good-in-itself, to give offerings.

But there's also an underlying metaphysical reason. Creation ex nihilo is generally rejected by ancient polytheism. The gods emerge from an undefined but pre-existent primordium swirling within a void in many mythologies, e.g. Khaos in Greek myth, Ginungagap in Nordic myth, etc. In Platonic metaphysics, the gods generate the physical world from eternal templates contained within their minds, what Plato calls the Forms or Ideas. Whether you look at it through first philosophy, or through the creative lens of myth, it's clear that creation occurs from existing components that change and become assembled, in a closed circuit much like a thermodynamic system. Sacrifice is how we, at the lowest register of emanation from divine unity, participate in the process of creation. By destroying matter by fire (i.e., burning incense, animal parts, or libations), we return it to the gods, so that its essence is reused in creation.
 
At the dawn of human awareness, at the beginning of human life on this earth, humans were simple in their thinking and in their understanding of natural phenomena such as night and day, rain, thunder, lightning, and the like. These phenomena aroused fear and terror within them. When primitive humans were unable to explain these phenomena, they attributed them to a supernatural force that controlled them and controlled their lives. This supernatural force was not tangible to them; in other words, it was a force beyond nature—a metaphysical force. Thus, primitive humans believed in the existence of a spiritual entity that controlled natural phenomena and human life. This was the beginning of the idea of religion among early humans, and the image of a fearsome god was formed in people’s minds—one who causes disasters such as earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, and other dangers that primitive humans experienced at that time. They attributed all these calamities to this terrifying god. Therefore, the idea of offering sacrifices and offerings arose in order to please this god and extinguish the fire of his anger. Human sacrifices were considered the most precious, because this god would not be satisfied except with what was most valuable.

Some years ago a meteorite exploded in the air over a Russian city. The news run all around the world. Today, almost nobody remember the event and comes back to our minds only when is mentioned by someone.

Similar situation happened in the past as well. After certain events affecting entire populations, some years later everything was almost forgotten because the daily duties were more important than keeping old memories.

You are correct that ancient people were afraid of thunder, lightning, earthquakes, and more, but these are not the ones that happen regularly or at low levels. Ancient people were afraid of weather and geological phenomena that was abnormal, stronger than the ones they used to confront every year by cause of the seasons.

When we know that the ancients worshiped Jupiter -as an example- and that they made sacrifices to this god in order to calm his fury, one might ask, "how it comes they were afraid of a planet that is located so far from earth and that is barely recognized with naked eye by majority of people?"

And what was the reason for to be afraid of that planet?

Sacrifices to calm the fury of planet Jupiter?

Today Jupiter surely is inoffensive to us, but what about thousands of years ago? I wasn't there, you weren't there. They were there, and they were afraid of planet Jupiter. They were so afraid of that planet to the point of calling it god.

It was not their imagination, not a mystical initiative. They didn't murder virgins, children or animals, they sacrifice them for a reason, to them a very good reason. They gave the best of their communities to calm the planet's fury. They might be a kind of superstitious people, but they weren't idiots of extremely fanatic people.

There is no other explanation for such a behavior but that planet Jupiter was closer to earth in those eras. If you have a better or more accurate explanation, you surely are welcomed to share it.
 
Some years ago a meteorite exploded in the air over a Russian city. The news run all around the world. Today, almost nobody remember the event and comes back to our minds only when is mentioned by someone.

Similar situation happened in the past as well. After certain events affecting entire populations, some years later everything was almost forgotten because the daily duties were more important than keeping old memories.

You are correct that ancient people were afraid of thunder, lightning, earthquakes, and more, but these are not the ones that happen regularly or at low levels. Ancient people were afraid of weather and geological phenomena that was abnormal, stronger than the ones they used to confront every year by cause of the seasons.

When we know that the ancients worshiped Jupiter -as an example- and that they made sacrifices to this god in order to calm his fury, one might ask, "how it comes they were afraid of a planet that is located so far from earth and that is barely recognized with naked eye by majority of people?"

And what was the reason for to be afraid of that planet?

Sacrifices to calm the fury of planet Jupiter?

Today Jupiter surely is inoffensive to us, but what about thousands of years ago? I wasn't there, you weren't there. They were there, and they were afraid of planet Jupiter. They were so afraid of that planet to the point of calling it god.

It was not their imagination, not a mystical initiative. They didn't murder virgins, children or animals, they sacrifice them for a reason, to them a very good reason. They gave the best of their communities to calm the planet's fury. They might be a kind of superstitious people, but they weren't idiots of extremely fanatic people.

There is no other explanation for such a behavior but that planet Jupiter was closer to earth in those eras. If you have a better or more accurate explanation, you surely are welcomed to share it.
perhaps it is the other way around, the planet was much later named "Jupiter". at 5 times further than us to the sun, it has negligible short term influence on our planet's, weather, tides.
 
perhaps it is the other way around, the planet was much later named "Jupiter". at 5 times further than us to the sun, it has negligible short term influence on our planet's, weather, tides.
Yeah, that is a very good possibility. I myself have the tendency to think that the biblical names of several characters were given much later, in many cases to make fit the new given name with their actions and rulings. That their original names were different.

That is a good point, but not so convincing. Their astronomy was not the best but was very good. When a new planet, star, galaxy is discovered, first thing that happens is to baptize it with a name. This is what happens today, and this is what happened thousands years ago.
 
Some years ago a meteorite exploded in the air over a Russian city.
Are you referring to the one that was captured on dashboard cameras and such a year or two ago?
When we know that the ancients worshiped Jupiter -as an example- and that they made sacrifices to this god in order to calm his fury, one might ask, "how it comes they were afraid of a planet that is located so far from earth and that is barely recognized with naked eye by majority of people?"
Together with Mars and Venus, Jupiter is one of the most visible "wandering stars" (i.e. planets) to the naked eye. It's very recognisable, if you're familiar with what it looks like.

Remember that ancient people didn't live in cities with a million bright electric lights blotting out the view of the night sky. They very more familiar than most people are today with the stars in the sky and the planets in the sky above them.
And what was the reason for to be afraid of that planet?
The "wandering stars" were special, because so few stars are seen to change their positions in the night sky over time. It's no wonder people thought they were special.
Sacrifices to calm the fury of planet Jupiter?
Ancient peoples had many gods. Even today, there are many different gods that people believe in.
Today Jupiter surely is inoffensive to us, but what about thousands of years ago?
Today, we have the benefit of centuries of scientific knowledge. We know that Jupiter is a planet. We know a lot about it. We've got a million very good photographs of it. We've flown spacecraft around it and its moons. It's not as mysterious as it once was, even though there's still a lot we can learn about it.
I wasn't there, you weren't there. They were there, and they were afraid of planet Jupiter. They were so afraid of that planet to the point of calling it god.
For the Romans, Jupiter was not just any old god. He was the supreme god. It makes sense to have a healthy respect for the Head Dude among the gods.
There is no other explanation for such a behavior but that planet Jupiter was closer to earth in those eras.
Are you sure there's no other explanation? What other explanations did you consider, and why did you reject them?
If you have a better or more accurate explanation, you surely are welcomed to share it.
Thanks, Luchito!
 
There is no other explanation for such a behavior but that planet Jupiter was closer to earth in those eras.
You can work this backwards and there will be apps for this I am sure. The planets move in ellipses around the sun so the distance is not equal. The actual orbits in terms of 1000s of years however will not be significantly different.
Millions of years or tens and 100s and 1000s of millions of years yes, orbital paths were different. The moon for instance was closer the further you go back.
 
You can work this backwards and there will be apps for this I am sure. The planets move in ellipses around the sun so the distance is not equal. The actual orbits in terms of 1000s of years however will not be significantly different.
Millions of years or tens and 100s and 1000s of millions of years yes, orbital paths were different. The moon for instance was closer the further you go back.
Agreed.

The orbits of celestial bodies eventually change, when no outside influence causes them, the changes can be more radical.

When Jonathan Swift wrote his Gulliver's Travels, the information he obtained from the moons of Mars is very interesting. His novel is fictitious, of course, like the novels of Isaac Asimov. However, novels can provide the acquired knowledge of the years when those were written. In the case of Swift, he obtained the information of the moons of Mars revolving around Mars, one of them every ten days and the other one every twenty and a half days.

Today, the orbits of those moons of Mars are different, 7.66 hours for one, 30.35 hours for the other one.

Going back to the topic, sacrifices do not need rituals, incense and similar.

When one reads the bible, it was a case of the people of Israel crossing the area where descendants of Moab lived. It happened that Moab's women were very attractive and men from the tribes of Israel started to meet them and copulate. The god of Moses didn't like at all such kind of party and sent a plague that started to kill Israelites like crazy. Then, no bull, no sheep, no bread, nothing to be burned was asked by this god but to hang the leaders of the tribes involved in the crazy sex scandal. It was made so, those leaders were hung and the killing stop.
 
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